Did anyone not like the story of TPM?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Joey7F, Aug 11, 2001.

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  1. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    Wow. I must be drunk or something. I actually agree with what Go-Mer said in that last post.

    <<runs off to check pulse and temperature>>
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    No wait, I have more...

    You know how there are two fish encounters?

    Many people get upset and say that the second fish encounter was gratuitous for the sake of flexing ILM's muscle. The first one can be defended as the token "monster" bit that all SW films have.

    But then it hit me, Qui-Gon quips after the first fish encounter "There is always a bigger fish". Obviously, this is a subliminal reference to Darth Sidious, the "Bigger Fish" of the Naboo Conflict.

    So the first fish encounter sort of represents TPM. The second Fish encounter sort of represents the next "situation", the clone wars.

    In the first fish encounter, the Opee Sea Killer is like the Trade Federation, in that it is simply attracted to the heros as an opertunistic play for personal gain. Call it greed or hunger for more, I think you can see the paralells here.

    In the second fish encounter, with the Colo Clawfish, you will notice (if you look really hard) that the fish's young is clinging to the cave wall behind her. So this fish is attracted to the Heros out of a paternal instinct to protect.

    Both times, it is the same fish, the Sando Aqua Monster that steps in to "protect" the heros at the last moment. Of course this represents Sidious/Palpatine, who rides in at the end of TPM on his white horse to save the day as the New Supreme Chancellor.

    I just wonder if there is anything to this, what it says about the events to come.
  3. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    And that brings things back to the way they were before...

    <<puts thermometer away>>

    I think that's a bit of a stretch there Go-Mer. I can see where it comes from (the "bigger problem"), but since it was a passing allusion, I think literal interpretation is a bit much.
  4. MORMEGIL Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 2
    Malthus:

    Sorry for the wierd tangent. I was trying to illustrate a point about blind followers. I'm not suggesting that is what GoMer is, but when 'whoever' made the blind follower analogy, it snapped in my head. GoMer just appears that way because of his argument. That story (and about fifty others involving drunk Marines) was absolutely true. That one was the funniest one, in a way.

    Everyone: HEY!!! I thought we might lay off GoMer for a while.

    GoMer: HEY!!!! I thought you were going to review the posts and see the sense we DO make. Speak to that, not why you think we are faulty in our conclusions. Really try to see where we're coming from. We have all (seriously) done that for you.

    This whole business is just the hugest pain in the ass. I'm going to rent TPM TOMORROW (even though my parents have it already at their house) and I'm going to watch it twice. I think I want to see it again. Hell, I might like it after all this crap, just because it will take me away. I just dread hearing 'exsqueeze me' and 'okeyday,' and seeing that little dork trying to be meaningful. I'm labbering. Forgive me.
  5. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Groan...

    You know, I get real tired of these so called bashers who say they really don't like TPM (some just down right hate it), and then go watch it repeatedly as if they're proving some point. What point are you guys trying to prove? Is it going to be a different movie the next time you watch it? Or are you just hoping the more exposure you have to it, the more you'll hate it, so you can be even more of a basher?

    Then do you remember that bit at the end when he jumped into a Naboo Starfighter and destroyed the flying space station?

    Please go back and read my last post, you'll see that I addressed that already.

    As far as Yoda being Obi-Wan's teacher, I hear they will explore young Jedi Training in the next film. If they show that Yoda is teching all the young Jedi, will you get off Lucas' case?

    No, it was clear from ESB that there was a special mentor relationship between Yoda/Ben, not some generic one Yoda had with everyone. If he addresses why their teacher/student relationship is unique, I will get off his back.

  6. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Sorry Stryphe, when everyone else in the forum is arguing against you, you tend to skim more.

    But the point is, Obi-Wan wasn't in the cockpit with him. All he knows is later the Naboo pilots are all congratulating Anakin for saving the day.

    From Obi-Wan's point of veiw he was a great pilot when he first knew him.

    And the only thing that was clear is that Yoda instructed him. All this "it was clear he was his top mentor" is something you came up with in your own mind.

    Here is my attempt to understand you guys.

    I can see how you could get hung up on it, but then again, it is only because of your assumptions that you feel something is being contradicted. Once again, a matter of expectations.
  7. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Sorry Stryphe, when everyone else in the forum is arguing against you, you tend to skim more.

    Everyone's arguing against me? I thought it was just me and you debating here.

    From Obi-Wan's point of veiw he was a great pilot when he first knew him.

    Yes, Obi-won's POV about the Prequels really was skewed, wasn' it? Maybe he went mad after EIII? Now THAT I could buy into. Heck, maybe for a brief peroid of time in ANH, he was nuts enough that he forced himself to believe that Anakin and Vader really were two completely seperate people. I mean, you train someone against your better judgement, and he wipes out the Jedi order. It's enough to make anyone crack.

    All this "it was clear he was his top mentor" is something you came up with in your own mind.

    Me, and a few thousand other SW fans.

  8. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Well, Darth Stryphe, I can only speak for myself on this one, but let me briefly address your point about so-called "bashers" continuing to watch TPM.

    In my case, I'm not trying to prove anything really by watching it. As I've mentioned before, I know that there are some things in life which are an acquired taste. And often, something like that can end up being a taste worth acquiring. As a Star Wars fan since '77, I think that (for me, at least) a SW film which breaks tradition, in that it alone of the films strikes me as largely unpalatable, is something that's worth the effort of giving repeated chances to. Because as Gomer has pointed out, it IS the finished product. For better or worse, this thing is Episode I of the SW saga, and if there's any chance that it can grow on me, I want to give it the opportunity to do so.

    When somebody like Gomer is laying out blanket claims such as "You people just don't understand the plot!" or (more to the point) "You people just don't WANT to like it!" then yes, I'll chime in a lot of times and mention the fact that I'm still giving it a chance every now and again because fundamentally I DO want to like it. But it's not like I'm re-watching TPM just to prove something to these folks. I'd be giving the thing another chance now and then whether I was posting up here or not.

    And again, there ARE parts of TPM that I do like, from entire scenes to small little touches WITHIN scenes. For example: that moment after Darth Maul Force-flings the droid carcass at the door controls during the Theed duel, there's just this killer shot of him whirling his saber in vicious glee before he swats at Obi Wan again, and Ray Park just NAILED that moment. It's a perfect example of what an old college drama coach of mine called "relishing the moment" when an actor just uses a line or an action as a way of getting right to the core of his/her character.

    And that moment happens to also occur in one of the scenes which I have liked since the first time I saw it: the three-way lightsaber duel. It was paced beautifully, choreographed damned near impeccably, and the only thing I wish is that it had been edited into the film slightly differently. (The scene-change interruption between Obi Wan screaming out as Qui Gon is killed and the moment when the barrier comes down and he attacks is IMHO some seriously wasted dramatic tension. That is a transition which really needs to be intact IMHO.) But it's one of those scenes that I ALWAYS look forward to and ALWAYS enjoy when I do watch TPM. The same with all of Palpatine's scenes... Ian McDiarmid is just fascinating to watch when he's playing his games with his alleged allies. And the tiny, almost imperceptible little smile he gives as Amidala and her retinue leave to return to Naboo is just a GREAT little bit of character acting.

    So yes, even though I don't particularly like TPM overall I do continue to watch it from time to time in an effort to allow it to grow on me. And when I do, there are certainly little islands within the film of moments/scenes that I do enjoy and which help me to stay interested.

    Am I an utter loon? Oh, almost certainly. I think that has less to do with my watching TPM again and more to do with the fact that I am quite simply out of my tiny little mind to begin with. But still, "not entirely stable". Sure, I can buy that. ;)
  9. MORMEGIL Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 2
    You're totally missing the point GoMer. Totally. And you call us close-minded.

    Just forget it.
  10. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Well, PR, you aleady admitted to being a little looney in an earlier post, so I wasn't address you as much :D
    , just the rest of the basher world.

    But frankly, I don't get the 'giving it a chance' after five times. I really enjoy the ALien series, but part III was garbaged. Watching it two times was all I needed. It didn't matter that it was Alien cannon, I skip it. Same with Star Trek V and VII (and IX).
  11. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Well then Morgemil, why don't you explain it to me like I am a 4 year old.

    If the point is that you think I should agree that these are plot holes, then I am not missing the point, I am dismissing it.

    So a fe milliopn SW fans thought it would have been different, but then again, how many of us expecte Vader to be Luke's father?

    If Lucas did what you thought he was going to do, then it wouldn't be SW.
  12. Quaff-Down Gin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 1999
    star 4
    "He says that for better or worse, he is approaching these films like a musical peice. There are themes that are repeated." -- GMT

    Sounds very similar to the Basher/Gusher war.
  13. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Yeah, that's kind of cool. This forum is sort of like a cubist idea. :D
  14. Harlowe Thrombey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 1999
    star 2
    As for Obi referring to Anakin as being a good pilot: I would say that any nine to ten year-old who can even fly a ship is a good pilot. That's just my take.

    I do think that GL did a great job of making Episode I relatively conflict-free (as in OT conflicts, of course there were conflicts between characters!) I don't mind if he "re-interprets" such things like Obi-Wan saying "the Jedi master who instructed me."
  15. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Yes, the more I think about it, the more I realize Obi-won was completely insane in the OT. The fate of Anakin and his hand in it was far more than he could handle. His entire skew on reality was gone. He'd blocked out memories of Qui-gon, glorified the past of Anakin, and sometimes wasn't even sure if Anakin really did turn into D. Vader, or not. The longer he was 'dead' (or 'one with the Force), his mind was able to slowly clear out. Probably by the time Episode IX would've been out, his sanity would have returned completely.
  16. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    "That wizard's just a crazy old man"

  17. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    This is a funny thread. Well, maybe not. Not really.

    Never mind.

    "On second thought, no. Not really, no."

    :D
  18. MORMEGIL Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 2
    Look, just call me Morm, okay GoMer?

    I'm not gonna explain anything to you like a four year old. I'm not your father.

    I will say that I have conceded that the lack of understanding between parties here seems to be the result of communication problems. That's what I've been trying to clear up. I wanted us to try to reach some sort of equilibrium so that discourse could really happen. The problem with the nature of these boards is that when someone disagrees, a lot of people have no compunction about calling them stupid, or run of the mill. I friggin hate that. Think about someone who calls you stupid to your face. I can imagine that situation, and I usually have no compunction about retempering their facial bones to match the curvature of the pavement. No one seems to call me stupid except when I'm working in a capacity where I am actually allowed to do that in response. Sort of ironic. But if that proves nothing, how about when someone comes off to you all sarcastic? Do you usually continue the conversation? I don't (strangely enough, as opposed to here). I walk off and forget about them. I am imagining the rest of the people here do the same.

    What I was trying to do was get you, GoMer, to look at what we were saying and try to see SOME situation where you might agree with something like that, SW or not. The fact is, you simply WON'T do it. Like you said, you dismiss it. When someone suggests a change that could have worked, two things: 1) let them use their imagination, because that's what it's for and 2) look at how sometimes, a change suggested might really have improved the movie. NO movie is perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Because TPM failed so many of us, we come up with ways it could have been better. Some of us think like that. It builds creativity, and does stretch the imagination.

    You can stand behind whatever you want. You have declared that you have no will or want to look at another side. I just watched TPM three times in the past 36 hours, just for the hell of it. Cost me $1. It's the same, really, but I found some things that I like more now, and some things that I dislike even more. I feel Jars is getting more and more expendable as I think about him. I see more of the intrigue hidden here and there. I see a series of six movies in the future that can be viewed from front to back and constitute a great story, front to back.

    I found something that I had completely missed, or forgotten. The whole scene with Jars attempting to pilfer that little critter fritter on Tatooine seems to show him in another light entirely. I foresee you telling me that he has learned to fend for himself because he was banished early on in life, and that being your justification for his actions. NOTHING justifies what he did, nor does it present a good example for the younger audience for whom this film was "intended," according to you. Your arguments are hollow, GoMer. They stink, really. I can remember them all, and none of them seem to make sense to me. But the way that you wholly selflessly defend TPM really intrigues me. Your capacity for seeing past logic and sticking to your true belief in this movie blows me away. I don't understand how you do it, or why. Unless...

    Are you GL, GoMer?


    ROFL
  19. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Well, nothing can excuse him, which is why he is lucky Anakin was around to help out.

    And, I am not being closed minded. Many of the "suggested improvements" I have seen around here, including but not limited to TPE, have been juvinle, and completely missed the point of the film.

    IMESHO.
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