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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Did anyone not like the story of TPM?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Phantom Menace' started by Joey7F, Aug 11, 2001.

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  1. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    Stone Jedi-

    It was Anakin's idea to enter in the race in the first place and Qui-Gon only agreed with it. Plus the only reason he's gambling with the boy and his mother's lives is because this is the only way he can free them seeing as how he doesn't have any money and that the republic credits are useless to Watto.

    To those that keep saying that the midichlorians ruined the mysteries of the force, nowhere did Qui-Gon say the midis create the force or that they are the force but he did say that they are like antennas that help the jedi communicate with the force
    so that means that the Force is still an energy field created by all living things.
     
  2. MORMEGIL

    MORMEGIL Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2001
    I have a lot to answer here, so this post might get long.

    First, Babylon 5 was strangely captivating. Some didn't like it because it wasn't Star Trek. I thought it was great if you watched more than a little of it. The guy who made it planned for a five-year run from the beginning and worked out the entire plot beforehand. So Darth23, I sympathize with you, but I think you ought to take a look at it during a boring stretch.

    Malthus, I have exactly the same reactions to the parts you mention. I get the same way with a lot of stuff, including the National Anthem, the very end of Braveheart, and a particular part in The Two Towers from LOTR... (OT: the Battle of Pellenor Fields where a leader from the good guys calls his men to rally about him on a hilltop because the Orcs have surrounded him a la General Custer... he looks to the river and sees ships bearing the black banner of the enemy to reinforce them... he stands alone and curses them from afar... when things are at their worst, he sees the ships unfurl the banner of the West: the white Tree Under Stars... they rally, outnumbered, to victory at the sight of the banner... UNbeatable) So I agree wholeheartedly with the lack of engagement that TPM offers.

    Jihad: I totally agree about the midichlorians business. I hated how the fate of the struggle came down to, "what does this button do?"

    Now........ Gomer:

    Friend, you need to learn to quit hamstringing people's arguments by breaking them down piece by piece and forcing them to come up with evidence that will just be yammered over again by you. Here you go:

    The extra 5-10 minutes for the political background would have enhanced its importance in the big scheme of things. Compared to JJ's antics, it was, paradoxically, a short-lived fantasy. More of the Senate's inner workings. More of the exact nature of the balance of power. More interaction between Senators. Maybe a dinner schmoozing party with many senators. Less poop. Less farting. Less breaking things. Less flopping around and 30-inch tongue-fencing. Less unintentional slapstick droid-destruction. How about some rallying and fighting through it. How about some last stands. How about something more like a non-disney movie.

    Your target audience....... can eat me. Remember the first 5 minutes of ANH? Remember the CQB a la a Navy SEAL assault? The people dying? Walking over bodies? Remember that little part where a man gets his larnyx crushed by Vader's hand and DIES right there on screen? These were NOT kiddie movies, last time I looked. That's not how you open up a kiddie movie. The rest falls into place.

    9 year olds, except in the SINGLE case of The Sixth Sense, are never interesting in movies. They talk a lot about how Anakin is so special and he can do all this stuff and that crap, but it doesn't give purchase anywhere. At most, Anakin mocks himself in his little accidental flight to the moon.

    Driving a pod and flying a 360 degree all-axis aircraft are so completely different I will never finish deriding you for thinking so once I get started. You are saying that a Mach plus aircraft can be successfully piloted by a drag-racer after two seconds worth of orientation in the cockpit. Even with the unparalleled luck that the boy displays, the chances are to me maybe 1:100,000,000, in which case it's less likely than getting hit by lightning.

    You're saying that the plot is deep. I say humbug. I can honestly claim that I instantly recognized the emperor when he came on screen as the ambassador and that the Empress had to be using a double. Those facts alone took the major mystery out of it. The rest were weird plot turns.

    By saying "To you perhaps," when Malthus claims that Anakin was uninteresting is like saying that everyone else but Malthus thought he was interesting. Uhhhhhh. No. Making similar statements in response to his(our) opinions tells me you have nothing but a con opinion to ours and are unable qualify it or express it intelligibly.

    If you think of something differently, grow some
     
  3. Darth23

    Darth23 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 14, 1999
    I tried watching B5 several times during it's run. If you want to talk about wooden acting look no further.

    I'd rather watch the worst episode of Voyager then the best Ep. of B-5, I think.

     
  4. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    MORMEGIL: "Now........ Gomer: Friend, you need to learn to quit hamstringing people's arguments by breaking them down piece by piece and forcing them to come up with evidence that will just be yammered over again by you."

    Go-Mer: I am not hamstringing anything, I am responding point by point. I am not looking for "evidence" as these are opinions we are talking about. I was merely requesting more than "there should have been more" I just want to know what it is some of you were missing. It seems half the time the important point being made is that Jar-Jar could have been cut down to make way for X, while X is never defined. It is this nebulous entity that would "help out" the rest of the film. I just want to know what this is.

    MORMEGIL: "The extra 5-10 minutes for the political background would have enhanced its importance in the big scheme of things. Compared to JJ's antics, it was, paradoxically, a short-lived fantasy."

    Go-Mer: They spent a LOT more time on the political backdrop than they ever did on Jar-Jar first of all. Some of you guys make it out as if Binks was the star of the film. He wasn't in it nearly as much as some of you seem to beleive. Second, I wanted to know what it is that you wanted? Jusr more politicial "stuff"? Or was there something you were missing? Is it just a stamina thing? Like did you want Vallorum to be shown shaking hands earlier in the day? Did you want to see a scene with people talking about how shady Vallorum seems to be? What?

    MORMEGIL: "More of the Senate's inner workings. More of the exact nature of the balance of power. More interaction between Senators. Maybe a dinner schmoozing party with many senators. Less poop. Less farting. Less breaking things. Less flopping around and 30-inch tongue-fencing. Less unintentional slapstick droid-destruction. How about some rallying and fighting through it. How about some last stands. How about something more like a non-disney movie."

    Go-Mer: So just as I assumed, this has more to do with trying to get rid of Jar-Jar, than it does with actually adding anything relevant to the narrative. So even with all of the time and effort you and Patrick have put into your posts, they all boil down to:

    Less Jar-Jar, more "Adult" stuff?

    Thats it? That is your whole line of reasoning here? You can't even come up with something that you feel needed to be shown in other areas that wasn't already?

    MORMEGIL: "Your target audience....... can eat me."

    Go-Mer: Spoken like a truly selfish SW fan.

    MORMEGIL: "Remember the first 5 minutes of ANH? Remember the CQB a la a Navy SEAL assault? The people dying? Walking over bodies? Remember that little part where a man gets his larnyx crushed by Vader's hand and DIES right there on screen? These were NOT kiddie movies, last time I looked. That's not how you open up a kiddie movie. The rest falls into place."

    Go-Mer: Apparently, that IS how you open a children's movie. Were you a kid when you saw it and liked it for the first time? Death and destruction are nothing new to kiddie fare. It was all done rather sanitarily, with no gore.

    MORMEGIL: "9 year olds, except in the SINGLE case of The Sixth Sense, are never interesting in movies."

    Go-Mer: I know you will hate this retort, but... To you perhaps.

    MORMEGIL: "They talk a lot about how Anakin is so special and he can do all this stuff and that crap, but it doesn't give purchase anywhere. At most, Anakin mocks himself in his little accidental flight to the moon."

    Go-Mer: So Patrick thinks it is too unrealistic to make Anakin suddenly an "ace fighter pilot" and now you feel they didn't make him seem competent enough? His skills are shown boldly in the pod race, and even though he accidentally did most of the day saving at the end, he still accomplished something the entire squadron of N1 Fighters couldn't do.

    MORMEGIL: "Driving a pod and flying a 360 degree all-axis aircraft are so completely different I will never finish deriding you for thinking so once I get started."

    Go-Mer: I would agree. A Pod Racer would be much harder to
     
  5. Patrick Russell

    Patrick Russell Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 1998
    Mormegil, you raise excellent points in your post. It's not your fault that Gomer will only respond favorably to those who out-gush him.

    Y'know, screw it... what's done is done and there's nothing any of our arguing is going to do to improve TPM. Those who automatically love everything with "Star Wars" stamped on it and those who love shoehorned kiddie gags and Barney-esque kiddie pandering will love TPM. Those of us who expected something that lived up to the overall quality and integrity of ANH and ESB will likely continue to have problems with it. "It's our lot in life."

    I HOPE that Lucas gets his ass in gear and makes better, more cohesive, more universally enjoyable films the next two times out, but if he doesn't have it in him anymore to do so, then he doesn't have it in him anymore to do so. I hope he does, but if not... well, my world is big and diverse enough that it won't crumble. In any case, we'll always have the OT.
     
  6. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    At least I am not the one who won't stand by his own words. I am not the one without substance to back it up.

    Sure, I don't agree with people who have a different opinion than mine. But that is what these boards are all about. I try and figure out why people didn't like the film, and offer my observations about things many of you have labled "expendable".

    If you can't give me more than "Less Jar-Jar, More "adult" stuff, then I am at a loss. I really don't know anything about what you wanted, only what you didn't want.

    I just think it would be interesting to hear what you specifically wanted. Is that so wrong?

    Patrick Russell: "Those of us who expected something that lived up to the overall quality and integrity of ANH and ESB will likely continue to have problems with it. "It's our lot in life."

    Go-Mer: Well, for those of you who can't see that TPM -did- live up to the quality and integrity of the classic trilogy, sure.
     
  7. Dionysus

    Dionysus Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Those who automatically love everything with "Star Wars" stamped on it and those who love shoehorned kiddie gags and Barney-esque kiddie pandering will love TPM. Those of us who expected something that lived up to the overall quality and integrity of ANH and ESB will likely continue to have problems with it.

    Patrick, man, that's pretty vitriolic stuff. I honestly, genuinely like the Phantom Menace. I think it could have been better, and it's my least favorite SW film, but I still think it is a good damn movie that fits perfectly into the saga. Now, does that mean that I must "love shoehorned kiddie gags and Barney-esque kiddie pandering," as you suggest? Does it also mean that I did not expect "something that lived up to the overall quality and integrity of ANH and ESB"?

    I can honestly tell you that the answer to both of those questions is 'no.' I don't enjoy "kiddie pandering," and I did not feel there was any of that in TPM. I did expect something that lived up to the quality of the OT, and that's what I think TPM delivered. These are opinions, man, not facts. Please don't insinuate that the mere enjoyment of a particular film is indicative of poor, or childish taste.

    Mormegil, Gomer is not an idiot, nor is he making baseless attacks on others' arguments. He's been posting here much longer than you or I, he probably knows a helluva lot more about SW than your or I, and he makes his points as best he can - why not cut him a little slack?

    That said, have you guys read LOTR? I'm sure you have Mormegil, and it's likely Patrick has as well. Now, imagine that for 20 odd years we had only been able to read the last half of the book. Then, suddenly, we got ahold of the first few chapters. What would be your reaction? Would you decry the "kiddie pandering" that Tolkien had obviously worked into his writing? After all, Gandalf is reduced to nothing more than a fireworks-firing clown! The whole thing is a quasi-comic, actionless string of exposition and disappearing acts. Where is that feeling of dark foreboding that we witness in the Mines of Moria? Where is the magical, other-wordliness of Rivendell and Lothlorien? Where is the grim, black cloud of hopelessness that surrounds Frodo and Sam as they make their way towards Mount Doom? Where is all of that "adult," "dark" stuff? Missing!

    Why is it missing? Because we're only just now looking at the first chapter of the story. So of course it's all light and playful - the adventure has yet to really begin. Only as the story progresses will get to see Gandalf transformed from the whimsical wizard into a wise warrior. The same goes for the characters in TPM. People change, moods change, your feelings change as the story progresses. That's how a good story works.

    I don't know, I'm just trying to offer a different way of looking at all this. Take it for what you will.
     
  8. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2001
    Perhaps, Go-Mer. Even still, they really should have chopped out that line "Yep, all my life." Good grief, what mother would let her kindergarden age child crawl into a pod racer? And if she didn't have any choice (Wattoo forced him), why on earth would anyone at all think a 3 year old could pilot a pod? If they'd left that one line out, it would have made ever so much more sense.

    Go-Mer: A 9 year old, you know, the target audience?

    Stryphe: Well, if that is true, then there in lays many problems with TPM. ANH, ESB, ROJ, targeted all ages, not 9 year olds (exclusively).

    Patrick Russell: "Could also have dealt with a climax to the movie that wasn't recycled from ROTJ...."

    Stryphe: Recycled ROJ? In what way? The gungan battle was very different from the ewok battle (the gungan battle was a stand up fight, the Ewok battle was an ambush). The space battle was a little similar, but how different can you be? The Queen's invasion of the palace has no parrelels in the trilogy, and the jedi duel was unique, first lightsaber duel with three people involved.

     
  9. PettyWhinyMalcontent

    PettyWhinyMalcontent Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Gomer: You sir, are a nut. Seek help.
     
  10. Dionysus

    Dionysus Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Ah. Insightful.
     
  11. PettyWhinyMalcontent

    PettyWhinyMalcontent Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 21, 2001
    C'mon Dionysus. Surely even your average Lucas boot-licking toadie can see that Gomer is out of his mellon. As a fellow TPM lover, you should encourage him to get help, not be an enabler.

    I think an intervention is in order.
     
  12. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2001
    B5 has HORRIBLE acting, but Mark Hammil is bad, too, so I always looked beyond that. B5 shows a five year story of how a giant consipracy seized several important worlds (including Earth) and how the struggle few had to undo the consiparcy. It did what Star Trek would never do (A) Kill major characters as a plot device, not because an actor quit. (B) Show a war that lasted more than two episodes (Oh, I know, DS9 had a long war, but they hardly ever showed it). (C) Ended the series with characters having grown or diminished, making them almost unrecgonizable from who they were a the begining of the series. (D) Had Earth by the bad guys. Anyway, that's my defense of B5 -- on an SW thread, so I'm waaay off topic now.

    Back to topic. PettyWhinyMalcontent/MORMEGIL, you guys need not take Go-Mer so seriously and stop getting all buffed up. He's got multiple alter egos on TF.N, each one very different from the other, and each one holds true to a theme. Go-Mer is the gusher persona. Once you realize this, he's actually quit enjoyable. And if nothing else, for crying out load, you guys are arguing with someone named Go-Mer!!! (No offense, Go-Mer. Urp!!!)
     
  13. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    What is it that is so unbeleivable about my enjoying this film? The crap leveled at it from it's detractors are exactly the same complaints people have made for each of the films. Yet that doesn't stop any of us from liking the classic trilogy. Beleive it or not, TPM is just as well made, if not better made than the classic trilogy installments. If you can't see that because you are too busy trying to see how it is not just like the classic trilogy, then whatever. Maybe time will help you guys out.

    People like movies all the time. It doesn't make them nut cases. Even though happiness is technically defined as a mental illness (probably by some basher).
     
  14. Patrick Russell

    Patrick Russell Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 1998
    Dionysis, your LOTR analogy is apt, and I think a lot of older fans were expecting something more like The Silmarillion where by going back into history we would not only get a deeper look at how events transpired (rather than a warm, fuzzy, cartoon introduction) but also that the PT would be aimed at LEAST at the same teen/late teen audience that the originals were rather than laying a big Barney trip on the whole thing and aiming the PT specifically at grade school kids.

    As I've said before, I have tried my ass off to like TPM. I've watched it numerous times in numerous frames of mind from numerous points of view and even in several varied states of non-sobriety, and I'm telling you that it's just not working for me. I even once watched it straight after watching The Muppet Movie (an old favorite from the old short-pants days) to prime the pumps and it STILL looked ridiculous and shallow. Even as an "introduction" to the PT (which is still in my mind akin to charging full price for the introduction to a book) it doesn't work for me, because not only is it so far removed character-wise from Episodes II and III, but also the characters which DO appear in TPM (in the youthful holding pattern they're in throughout the film) simply do not draw me in in any way. This has been pointed out by others who were less than thrilled with TPM, and I have to say that it's a legitimate problem. Anakin and Obi Wan (two of the three main characters from the PT) have no actual characters to dig into in TPM... it's all merely "potential". Hell, Obi Wan is barely even IN the damned thing. Anakin is a nine year-old kid, and thus we have to start from square one with him in Episode II when he's played by a completely different actor and portrayed in a very different frame of mind than the Macaulay Culkin trip we saw in TPM. Qui Gon shows perhaps the most character of anyone aside from Palpatine, and he gets snuffed at the end of the film. And what story there was was constantly interrupted by the endless, half-assed slapstick gags George has become so enamored of in his old age. There's nothing about TPM which is compelling me to see Episode II, as many chances as I've given it. For me, I'll see AOTC because "It's Star Wars". And that's not storytelling, that's marketing.

    As for Gomer's assertion that I refuse to back up my opinions with substantial examples... well, I think I'll just let that one go as bargain-basement flame-bait. I've been backing my opinions on TPM up in this and other forums (AICN, JediNet, etc.) since May of 1999. I've repeated myself ad-nauseum, and may choose to again at some point, but not simply because Gomer pops a quarter in the friggin' jukebox.
     
  15. SHINOBIWANKENOBI

    SHINOBIWANKENOBI Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2001
    Patrick, you are just a hater, plain and simple. You should change you rname to Darth Hater.
     
  16. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    So far, all I have heard from you is how shallow the characters are, that you wish there was less Jar-Jar and more "adult" stuff, Which you only describe as "more political exposition".

    I am not saying you are wrong. I am not saying your gripes aren't justified. I am merely trying to figure out if you have an idea of what you wanted "more" of.

    What you seem to be missing.

    You wanna call that flame bait, then whatever. It is one of the more creative spins I have seen put on not backing up one's own statements.

    And it is not like I expect you to justify yourself to me. You can feel free to be as unimpressed as you wanna be.

    I would just like to understand how you managed it.
     
  17. Yodas_Breath

    Yodas_Breath Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    It was ok the first time but the 30th .....
    It was better than the first three.
     
  18. Yodas_Breath

    Yodas_Breath Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    It was ok the first time but the 30th .....
     
  19. PettyWhinyMalcontent

    PettyWhinyMalcontent Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Not only is Gomer a nut, he also lacks basic comprehension skills. It goes like this:

    Patrick says what he thinks is wrong with TPM.

    Gomer asks him what he wanted.

    Patrick tells him.

    Gomer then asks him what he wanted.

    Patrick tells him again, in more concise language.

    Gomer then asks him what he wanted.

    And on, and on, and on....
     
  20. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    I am glad your comprehension is better than mine, perhaps you could give me what he wanted in basic preschooler level text?
     
  21. PettyWhinyMalcontent

    PettyWhinyMalcontent Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Gomer, how about saving me the time and energy and just READ his posts the first time, so no one will have to repeat themselves?

    Click on Patrick's name, then click on "view latest posts", and then click on the topics, and READ. Start with this thread.
     
  22. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    Yeah but my comprehension will not allow me to figure out what it is he wants more of.

    All I can see is "Less Jar-Jar, more Adult stuff".

    The only thing I see here is a selfish desire to make this film not for kids.
     
  23. PettyWhinyMalcontent

    PettyWhinyMalcontent Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Gomer, that's because that is all you want to see. You're so afraid of seeing his posts as valid criticisms that you shut your brain off and go round and round with ad hominum "rebuttals". You are so afraid that you might start to see TPM from someone else's point of view, and your entire fantasy world will come crashing down around you.

    Gomer, this next statement I say with complete sincerity: You should drop Star Wars for a while. It's starting to do funny things to your head. For your own health, you should seek out some other interest or hobby for a while. Single-minded obsession is just not good for you.
     
  24. stone_jedi

    stone_jedi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 17, 2001
    Gomer, this next statement I say with complete sincerity: You should drop Star Wars for a while. It's starting to do funny things to your head. For your own health, you should seek out some other interest or hobby for a while. Single-minded obsession is just not good for you.


    LOL!!!!!!

    :D :D :D :D
     
  25. Patrick Russell

    Patrick Russell Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 1998
    Tell ya what, Gomer... sometime soon I will endeavor to sit down and write a comprehensive thesis on what I thought would have improved the basic story of TPM, get it all out there in one spot once and for all so you can just go on down the list. Personally, I think that I could go so far as to literally write an alternate script and you still wouldn't get what I was talking about.

    At the moment, however, I imagine my responses may be a bit less detailed and succinct than they could be. I've got a whole lot of other issues piling up on me in everyday life, and as a result my ability to wax philosophic about the pros and cons of TPM as a movie is probably way off of what it might normally be. Evidently some folks grasp what I'm saying and others either aren't seeing it or simply don't like the way I'm putting it. Personally, I don't find that good enough, and I want to be clear as possible to anyone who's interested in my rancid old opinions. At this point in time, however, I'm probably not the most articulate, focused individual in the world... so let's just leave it at this: I WILL present something regarding what I'd have rather seen done with the TPM story which is as direct, substantial and uncompromising as possible. Things being as they are in my life right now, I'm not exactly sure when I'll get to it, but if Gomer and others are TRULY interested in my opinion on some level (God knows why... I'm just another blowhard with a thesaurus onhand...) then I'll crank something out for them at some point here.
     
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