Did anyone not like the story of TPM?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Joey7F, Aug 11, 2001.

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  1. LeeJackson Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2001
    I hated the story of Phantom menace the atcion sequances saved the movie.

    This artical pretty much sums up how I feel.

    http://www.dianoga.com/rants/strangewars.html
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    You mean it took someone else to tell you how you felt about it? Why can't people just put their distaste into their own words? Why do so many need others to explain it for them?
  3. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "It is much more competant than most of the crap coming out of Hollywood these days."


    Well then, to use one of your favorite challenges, "Prove it!" Just because something is in a SW flick doesn't automatically make it competent, and just because Gomer SAYS something is competent also does not automatically make it so. Back it up with something, as you constantly demand of everyone else in this forum.

    Yes, the film LOOKED spectacular for the most part. Lack of production design quality is not one of TPM's failings. I felt that TPM was visually designed as well as any of the OT films.

    Stone Jedi seems to have pointed out further evidence of what I saw as the main problem with Jar Jar. I have not yet seen the Phantom Re-Edit, but from what Stone says it sounds to me like Jar Jar's antics were pared down some and this made Stone (who has never hidden his dislike for Jar Jar as he appeared in TPM) do a 180 in his opinion of the character. Since to my knowledge it would have been impossible for new or different footage to be added to TPRE, I assume that this apparent strengthening of Jar Jar's character in Stone's eyes was completely due to what was removed from the film.

    Which brings me down to my specific problem with Jar Jar. In theatre (and by extension in film) there is a specific problem which pops up from time to time called "upstaging". Contrary to what some may believe, upstaging does not translate to "out-acting" another cast member. It is the specific act of an actor (often playing a tangential character) drawing the audience's attention away from the primary action/dialogue of a scene by engaging in a bit of "business" that the audience cannot help but notice. In other words, upstaging impedes the storytelling process by distracting the audience. It is often a result of an actor overacting and being unnecessarily hammy, and can happen with a background character who is trying too hard to be noticed, or it can even be a principle actor who is overacting a scene to the point where the audience is no longer seeing the character in the story, but is instead conscious of the actor overplaying the character. It's a sure way to derail a scene, and it's something that a good actor tries to avoid, and that a good director tries to help his actors to avoid.

    The biggest problem with Jar Jar was that he was constantly upstaging everyone else in most of the scenes in which he appeared. If it wasn't his overblown physical actions, it was his voice. IMHO, George should have left the mime work to Ahmed Best and gotten a professional voice-over artist to do Jar Jar's voice. Because Best simply overacted the part far too often and the voice was a significant part of that. And IMHO George Lucas failed to effectively rein in Best's performance (and ILM's CGI animation) so that it blended in with the rest of the movie. Some scenes worked. Jar Jar's dialogue with the Queen as they looked out the window on Coruscant was fairly well done for the most part, for example. But overall Jar Jar just plain, flat-out upstaged the other actors in most scenes he was in. And that was a major problem, because he was in a LOT of scenes.
  4. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    This is from that Dionoga Rant mentioned above:

    "Dr. Strange Wars: Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love George Lucas' Bomb. The key is Booze."

    Go-Mer: This is good advice?

    "No, I am dead serious. The Phantom Menace is quite an enjoyable and profound movie if you are completely **** faced. Personally I recommend Jack Daniel's old number 7, but any kind of alcohol will do it for you, except rubbing alcohol. That will make you go blind, on second thought if you can't see The Phantom Menace? But I digress; the key to enjoying the new direction the prequels are taking is total and utter inebriation."

    Go-Mer: I know I have enjoyed the film in many states, but I don't think it is neccesary to be totally out of your mind to appreciate it. in fact, you would probably miss the more subtle nuance of the film.

    "The reason for this is that the New Star Wars movies are being written for kids, and not normal kids, and not the kids that take the short bus, but the kids that are locked away from society, for their and our own good."

    Go-Mer: This also illustrates how we tend to treat our kids in society. People like this would rather lock them away than deal with them.

    "The kids that are so stupid that they thought Han Solo was a cold blooded murder, and the kids that had trouble with the scene in The Phantom Menace when Darth Maul goes all pink."

    Go-Mer: I am not sure anyone thought of Han as a cold blooded murderer, and I am double not sure how TPM releates to Han Solo in any way.

    "And of course all the fans who have trouble understanding when Boba Fett falls into the monsters mouth he is eaten and dies."

    Go-Mer: Are you sure you were watching TPM? In what way does TPM clarify Boba Fett's death in ROTJ?

    "The prequels are being written for a new generation, a dumb generation. I hear even the opening shot will be changed from "A Long Time Ago In A Galaxy Far Far Away" to "This Is A Fairy Tail, An Imaginary Story", just to help out some of our more easily confused audience members."

    Go-Mer: I think that your cynisism is getting the better of you here. Just because kids enjoy things like Jar-Jar falling down, doesn't make them stupid. It makes them young humans. Just like you were once, if you could remember.

    "We don't want anybody writing about Luke Skywalker on the American History Final. So to enjoy these movies you need to become (at least temporarily) this new fan that George is catering to."

    Go-Mer: That's funny, because he was catering to me, and I am an old school SW fan since '77.

    "The way to become like these new fans is to diminish your mental compacity drastically."

    Go-Mer: No, that is how you jump to rash dismissals and un thought out knee jerk reactions to everything.

    "A lobotomy would accomplish this, however I find this a pretty permanent and life altering choice to achieve the desired effect. A lobotomy is only necessary if you want to become a Lucas apologist EU loving Fan boy."

    Go-Mer: I find this line of thinking offensive.

    "If you're just trying to enjoy the movie, grab a bottle of gin or if mary jane is your thing grab a blunt. Sit back, partake in your drug of choice, and get ready for the movie experience of a life time. In no time you will be laughing with Jar Jar, and finding the scene where he steps in **** Oscar worthy. You will find everything Qui Gon Jin says earth shattering and making complete sense. Anakin is as cool as James Dean, and you will really be rooting for him to blow up the Driod Control Ship. Gone will be the little problems, such as lack of plot, under developed characters and the fact that almost none of it makes sense when paired up with the original trilogy. You will no longer gag at the thought of midichlorians or a six year old being too old for Jedi training. You will be at peace, calm, and the movie will wash over you. As long as you keep your blood alcohol level up you will have no trouble understanding or thoroughly enjoying this fine piece of cinematography."

    Go-Mer: Hey, all I am saying is that some of us don't need a
  5. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Patrick, if you can prove that any of the classic trilogy installments were competant, then I will do the same for TPM. You certainly can't prove it wasn't competant.

    As far as Jar-Jar taking to focus of the scenes, that is his point. It is not inherrantly bad, unless you can't stand Jar-Jar. He was meant as a release valve for the tension.
  6. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Whatever he was MEANT to be, in the final cut of the film he basically serves to upstage everyone else. And if Lucas INTENTIONALLY had one of his characters upstaging the rest of the cast, than he's a worse director than I thought. Upstaging is NOT something which serves a legitimate purpose. It's a combined result of bad acting and bad direction, and is a FLAW to be avoided, not a clever plot device.

    As for the notion that he was there to "break tension", that's bull pizzle. His constant in-your-face presence PREVENTED tension from ever really building up in the first place. Had Lucas been judicious with his use of Jar Jar's pratfalls and histrionics, then perhaps he WOULD have functioned as an effective tension release valve. But since Lucas chose instead to virtually projectile-vomit Jar Jar and his antics all over the movie, he became not so much a pressure release valve as an actual hole in the tire.
  7. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Go-Mer: Well put, but dismissive and lacking of any basis. It is much more competant than most of the crap coming out of Hollywood these days.

    So true, in general, but 1999 was an incredible year for movies. When everything was said and done, that's when I noticed a problem with TPM. I kept wanting to say there were other movies as good as it that came out that year, but that can't be! Surely Stryphe would assume an SW movie was the best film to come out in a year, but I found myself questioning that. That's when I went back and started looking at TPM with a critical eye. Before 2000, I had no real compliants (except in Anakin's role, that never set quite right with me, it just got worse over time).

    Darth-Stryphe: "And don't get into a long thing about fans and expectation, I understand your view on that already. It was been well stated."

    Go-Mer: I could go over it again if you like...


    Please do, but spend at least 12 paragraph on the subject to make sure everyone is crystal clear.

    Go-Mer: You showed up to the party, but just sat in the back and moped around the whole time. From where I sit, this is why you didn't have a good time.

    I really don't know where you got that impression from. I did have a good time.

    GoMer" And notice, you are saying that TPM didn't pull you in like an ENTIRE TRILOGY OF FILMS did. Perhaps when all is said and done, you will feel that same magic you did for the first set of three films.

    Ah, but when ANH was the only film out, it did pull me in. And if had been released for the first time in 1999, it wouldhave done the same.

    Go-Mer: "Prove it. Come up with a reason why TPM was not a good SW movie without comparing it to the classic trilogy."

    VCT: Look Go-Mer, we can agree to disagree. About a year and a half ago I wrote an extensive list of reasons, along with my analysis as to why,


    Oh, but you already did make several valid points in this thread, VCT. Don't wory, the rest of us didn't miss them.

    Look, Star Wars is a character-driven story. Lucas would be the first one to admit that.

    And I believe he did admit that while writing the script of TPM.

    VCT: If you want I can list them (and I had a chance to work on TPM, believe it or not, but decided in favor of another project that offered me a lot more at the time).

    Well, you got my curiousity. What are they?

    Go_mer: Well, screenwriting 101 deals with single, stand alone films, not a trilogy.

    Oh, now that's just horse sh(-stuff).

    Go-Mer: From where I sit, we got an expertly hidden villan.

    Knowing that Palp's a baddy, we sure do. Cool villian that sith lord is.

    A lobotomy is only necessary if you want to become a Lucas apologist EU loving Fan boy."

    Go-Mer: I find this line of thinking offensive.


    Well, lobotomy is a bad choice of words, I'll grant you that, Go-Mer, but actually you may be interested to know that resent scientific discoveries have proven that it is, in fact, required to have a lower than average IQ to appreciate EU as a whole. It's being hailed the first great scientific discovery of the 21st Century. It's known as "The Law of Expanded Universe." Scientist are now busy at work to prove that Voyager and the Next Generations are indeed not really Star Trek.

    As for the notion that he was there to "break tension",

    I didn't want anything to break the tension. Am I the only one who feels this way?
  8. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "I didn't want anything to break the tension. Am I the only one who feels this way?"


    No, you're not. Carefully-built tension is an art unto itself and is one which cannot be successfully achieved if the characters are constantly winking at the audience and saying "It's going to be okay, really it is. Don't you worry now..."

    There IS a place and purpose to the breaking of tension, but in order for it to work and to not derail the process it must be done carefully, judiciously, and with attention to timing. Perfect example... the movie Jaws. There's a scene out on the boat where we haven't seen the shark for awhile, and Chief Brody is frustratedly scooping ladles of chum over the stern of the boat. At this point the tension has been building for awhile because we instinctively know that the shark is out there somewhere shadowing them. Brody is ticked because he's been relegated to the role of scooping bloody fish guts into the water instead of driving the boat and says "Slow ahead." I can go slow ahead. Come on down here and chum some of this sh**. The audience laughs at the expletive and the attitude, thus breaking the tension... for about a half a second until the shark pokes its head up out of the water close enough to the boat that Brody (looking the other direction) tosses his next ladle of chum directly onto the shark's snout before turning around and seeing the shark. The audience jumps, because not only had the tension been effectively built up, but it was momentarily broken JUST before the shark appeared, thus driving the moment home that much more by catching the audience completely off-guard in mid-laugh.

    THAT is effective use of tension-breaking. You don't simply water down the entire film with pratfalls so that tension is never allowed to build. If the tension-breaker does not serve to ENHANCE that tension on some level (as with the example cited above) then it's just sloppy storytelling.

    Movies are all ABOUT building tension. To assume that creating a character to purposely upstage the story and the dialogue throughout the film so as to save the audience the stress of dealing with tension is necessary is to misunderstand what good storytelling is all about.
  9. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Patrick, if he was there to break tension, why would you be surprised that it worked?

    I didn't find Jar-Jar to be any bolder than the other characters, in fact, contrary to what many of you seem to think, he wasn't in the spotlight all the time.

    It just seems to me that because you guys hate him so much, you tend to conentrate on him the most. Hatred is the opposite of Love, and in that way, it can also become an obsession.
  10. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Gomer, if you INSIST on purposely missing the point then there's really not much point in discussing this stuff with you.

    Jar Jar didn't "break the tension", he prevented tension from being built in the first place. Those are two VERY different things, and I know you're bright enough to be able to grasp that.

    He was overdone and overacted as a character, and Lucas seems to have been oblivious to the fact that more is less with this type of character. Between Ahmed Best's penchant for overacting and Lucas/ILM's inability to refrain from repeatedly going overboard with Jar Jar's animation in a sophomoric effort to show off their CGI chops, Jar Jar was constantly upstaging everyone else. And the problem with that is (and this is true of ANY character in ANY movie which repeatedly upstages the other characters) after awhile his very presence onscreen becomes a distraction because after watching him upstaging everyone for that long it's difficult not to see him and anticipate him doing it again, even if he's just standing there.

  11. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "...in fact, contrary to what many of you seem to think, he wasn't in the spotlight all the time."


    Gomer, the thing is, a character doesn't HAVE to be in the spotlight in order to upstage a performance. I've seen and been in stage productions where a sideline character off in the background is overdoing whatever it is that they're doing and drawing attention away from the main action/dialogue. One need not necessarily be front-and-center in order to upstage a scene.
  12. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    sounds like a personal problem.

    :)
  13. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    No, it's actually a common problem in the theatre, particularly in amateur theatre when you're not dealing with professional actors. But I've seen it in professional theatre as well. And I certainly saw it in TPM.
  14. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I am sorry you felt no tension Patrick. What do you want me to say? That there wasn't tension to be broken? That Jar-Jar upstaged every scene he was in? I disagree.
  15. VCT Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 3
    PatrickRussell: "Gomer, if you INSIST on purposely missing the point then there's really not much point in discussing this stuff with you."

    My sentiments exactly.


  16. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    For what it is worth, I am glad you made the effort. I may not agree with the issues you had with the film (slightly different than saying I am ignoring them), but I would rather find out about them from you directly like this, instead of assuming things about your reasons.

    I would hate to be seen as a blind Lucas zealot with heavy blinders on.
  17. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    PR, excellent example, using Jaws that is. We had to study that in film school as an example of how to create tension and surprise your audience with simple use of editing and music.

    You know what I think the big problem with TPM in regards to the 'light heartedness' is? It wasn't really too much Jar-Jar, it was not enough C-3PO, which caused us to have to have more and more Jar-Jar. Threepio's job for three films was to provide us with the humor. Frankly, he annoys me almost as much as Jar-Jar (I realize that sounds like blasphemy, I know). Whether or not Threepio was better, we'd all adjusted to his style of humor. GL needed a character to provide humor throughout the film, and since C3PO had such a small part, we got Jar-Jar. But better Jar-Jar than Ben Quadronoro. Ugh.... Anyway, if C-3PO's part had been larger, 10-to-1 says Jar-Jar would have had a much smaller role.
  18. Harlowe Thrombey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 1999
    star 2
    It always comes down to Jar Jar, doesn't. :)

    My two cents on this thread, I think that the overall plot structuring was done very well, except for one thing. I didn't like that we don't ever know what the mysterious trade dispute is and we don't know what Sideous' true plan/motivations are. While I can see that Lucas probably didn't want Sideous' plans to be clear to the audience (just as they were unknown or unclear to the protaganists in the film) but I feel that the former point is valid because its almost as if GL is saying to us in the Opening Scroll, "Look, there's a conflict going on, you don't need to know what it is, just know that there is one." (I'm talking about the trade disputes to outlying star systems mumbo jumbo.) Since the whole blockade is central to the conflict of the film, I think its important that we know more about that. But this is a relatively minor complaint, considering that in ANH he started out by telling us that there was an evil empire, and at first we don't get to see what exactly makes them evil. I don't think GL could have followed any other plotline that would necessarily be any better.
  19. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It is as if the scroll doesn't tell you about it, only if you don't read it. It says right in the opening scroll that it is over the taxation of trade routes to outlying starsystems. Sidious' true goals shouldn't be revealed until the next film at least.
  20. Idokante Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2001
    Well, I've been scanning through these forums for a good couple of minutes, and I just had to register after finding my way through the "Phantom Menace Story Problems" thread. Can you believe this Gomer cat? Pretty much the epitome of basement-dwelling fantasy troll. I mean, "subtle political nuances?" Like what, the fact that (gasp) the Senator guy look exactly like the crazy guy in the hood! Dear god, how could I have missed that? To tell you the truth, I never saw the original Star Wars until a couple of years ago, having been barely alive when they came out, and having lived without cable TV for a good long while, so when I saw them, it was kind of a treat. Exceptional special effects, considering the time of it's creation, and involving characters I could sink my teeth into like a Salsbury steak. Grrr!

    The Phantom Menace, on the other hand, was a sad bag of meandering nothing I was later ashamed to admit having seen. I am, by no stretch of the imagination, a "hip" and "with-it" sorta guy, but (dang)! Even I winced in pain as the googly-eyed aliens danced across the screen, making funny faces and screaming. I mean, screaming all the time! Apart from the cuddly-wuddly teddy bears at the end of the third movie, I always thought Star Wars was like a grungy version of the old space movies from the 50's. I guess not, though, 'cause outside of a Disney double-feature, I've never heard so much empty jabber-jawing stretch out for so long a duration.
    My favorite line of the movie (i.e., the only one I can even remember): "You can kiss your trade franchise goodbye!" It's like the Muppets do "War and Peace," only without the humor, characterization, and coherency.

    This Gomer guy, though, geez. He defends it as a kid's movie, while commenting how he loved the expert political conflict and subtle characterization. Yeah, I can see how you could confuse staring straight ahead and not doing anything with being "subtle," but to me, and pretty much everyone else with whom I've ever discussed this movie, it was just gay (admittedly, however, those with whom I've spoken concering this movie aren't too great in number, since very few people I know have actually seen the movie. Yeah, Jar Jar's suck-aptitude is that universal.)

    I guess Gomer will do his nerd thing where he takes parts of my post and yells at it, while everyone else justs sits in frustration at his surgical pro-Phantom Menace vendetta, but that's OK. I don't expect to come back later or anything and read the replies. Just thought I'd add my two cents to the pile of change.
  21. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Yeah, how could he possibly have found anything to like in the film?

    * For one, there's Jar-Jar... Nuff said.

    * Then there is Anakin... Nuff said.

    * Then there is that two headed pod racer... Nuff said.

    * Maul and Obi-Wan were wasted as cameo appearances.

    * Queen Amidala couldn't emote her way out of a paper bag.

    * They used too much CG.

    * There was no "Han Solo" type.

    * There was no "Princess Leia" type.

    * What the heck is a Midichlorian...? Nuff said.

    * "Wizard","Exqueeze me!","How Wude", "Sitting Ducks", "Yousa in big Doo-Doo"... the list goes on.

    * "Yippe" (yes this deserves it's own bullet point).

    * Jar-Jar is made General?

    * Obi-Wan is Master Yoda's Padawan? What about Yoda?

    * Why is everything so shiney and happy looking? Where is Lucas' "used universe" now?

    * Pod Racer's are considered Great Pilots? Hummbug!

    * Where are the "Clone Wars"?

    * Anakin should have shown his dark side.

    * I could have written a better script (which I am currently working on in my own free time).

    * Lucas lost his touch after ANH, and the series has been in decline ever since.
  22. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    Ok so who wants to guess who that idokane person really is.

    It's amazing to me how many people ont he net do such a BAD job of trying to pretend they're someone or something they aren't.
  23. Harlowe Thrombey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 1999
    star 2
    Go-Mer: I acknowledged the fact that the scroll said something vague about the taxation to outlying star systems. My entire point is that we don't know what exactly that dispute is.

    I agree that Palpy's overall intentions shouldn't be revealed until the next film, I'm talking about how he planned to get himself into a position of power using the blockade. Sure it worked out for him, but you can't really say that that was how he planned it.

    I'm completely behind you when it comes to your support of the TPM, I lean more towards gushing than I do of bashing. But when it really comes down to it, its everyone's individual opinions that count, you can't argue as to the merit of a film. I don't think that you can lucidly state why the film was good any more than someone else can validly state why the film wasn't good. Some people like Jar Jar, other people don't. Arguing why Jar Jar is good isn't going to make his performance or role appeal to the people that didn't like it.
  24. PettyWhinyMalcontent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2001
    star 1
    Idokante, you are my new hero. It really hurts when you shoot pepsi through your nose. Please come back and post more often.
  25. MORMEGIL Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 2
    With a name like Idokante, it's got to be good.

    Seriously, man, you gotta come back and hang out.

    GoMer... I think PR said it best with 'why are you [GoMer] deliberately missing the point?' or something to that effect. I will never understand how you pick out the things you want to pick out from within a decent argument and never address the real points made. We address you all the time, stating specific facts and suggestions, and then you come back with your 'stuff,' that reads like it came through some distorted lens, as if you blanked out 90% of what is said before you blurt out the first thing that comes to mind: usually 'TPM is good never bad for any reason lemme just say it lemme just say it TPM is good TPM is good TPM is good.' You are like one of those dolls that says the same thing no matter how many times you pull the strings.

    But I tell you what..... I blame all of us for listening to you in the first place, and not you for making these flaccid dummy-ballads...

    A definition of insanity: doing the same thing the same way over and over and expecting the result to be different at some point.

    I, for one, give up. GoMer, you can never charge this as a win, unless it's for schmooze points with JJDF and TPMDF and whatever else you belong to. I want you nice and high in the ranks, so that I can hold you personally responsible for something at some point. Settin ya up.

    prediction: gomer will state that winning and losing are not the point here, a concept with which I am very familiar, nevertheless having stated it because someone casually bowing out of a convo with him seems to make him think he is right and we are wrong. Next, he will denounce right and wrong wrt to the arguers as similarly being 'not the point,' of which I am silimarly well aware. However, that seems to be the way it is done here, thanks to GoMer himself, something of which I think he is more than marginally aware. He will claim he DOES address all points, and that the ones he elects not to address, which have the suspicious tendency of being well argued points with bases, evidence, focus, and conclusion, are simply invalid. He will then say that we never truly address him or his points, citing in some roundabout way that nothing he has said has ever been disputed with a good reason. He will blindly label all of us JJ haters, then he will talk about being capable of enjoying a film, then he will tell us (probably just me) that we need psychiatric help. Am I anywhere close there, Pyle? Did your thought patterns EVER turn in any of these directions while you were formulating your argument before you were even finished reading? Did anything hit home? Anything anyone here has said?

    P.S. I just had this thought that would make me kiss Gomer if it were true... Maybe he is just trying to help us fomrulate our arguments..... that he is secretly an astute person but is acting as the psychological 'other' to help us argue better. If that were true, boy oh boy, would I just love you GoMer. In fact on second thought, I think I will practice more on you. I'M BACK IN IT, DROOGS!!! ROFL :D :D :D
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