Did AOTC restore your faith in Lucas?

I find it quite amusing that although the media would have the world believe that not a single person out there liked TPM, almost every person in this thread did love it... just goes to show that one should never listen to the media....

LittleJedi

 

Faith in Lucas was never an issue with me. I never watched the Star Wars films with that in mind.

Attack Of The Clones was enjoyable, but the weakest of all the Star Wars films, in my opinion. The overall story was a good one, but it was marred by bad pacing, poor dialogue in some scenes, an unconvincing romance and a sorely miscast Natalie Portman.

Lucas is excellent at constructing a grand vision, but not as good at directing or writing a script.

BaronLaw

 

BaronLaw,I agree with you...

AOTC has a good story, but in my opinion, it suffers from bad editing.
When I saw it the first time, I thought.. "what is this?".

I do liked it the second time, though.

 

Yes!

I was not impressed by TPM. A sluggish script that seemed targeted specifically at young kids & a horrible, uninteresting performance by Jake Lloyd. Before anyone flames let me say I wanted to like this movie as I loved both ANH & ESB. I saw the latter film something like 30+ times at the cinema when it originally came out.

However TPM just didn't hold up so I didn't have great expectations for AOTC. I was pleasantly surprised by the result. Lucas did a very good job by balancing the spectacle with an emphasis on character. To me this paid off because when the big action scenes started I was actually emotionally involved with the characters.

I also think that Lucas found his feet as a director with AOTC. Unlike the work of a Michael Bay or even, sometimes, Steven Spielberg - where a particularly flashy camera move draws attention to itself and has the effect of distracting you from the story - Lucas' direction is discreet & lets you concentrate on the unfolding story. It amuses me when people attack GL's directing considering that the SW movies have contributed some of the most instantly recognisable and enduring imagery in the history of cinema. That's not a bad record for a director who supposedly can't direct.

 

I never lost my faith in George Lucas. I loved TPM and I loved AOTC even more. I can't wait to see Ep III.

 

Comparing Spielberg to Michael Bay is blasphemy!

 

The faith I can have in Lucas has always been rather limited.

Lucas works well when surrounded by the right people : Kurtz, Kershner, Kasdan, (and even spielberg if you take the indiana jones series). These are talented "no-men" as we shall call them.

On his own, Lucas cannot come up with a masterpiece I'm afraid. He is not that great a director/Writer. Let's face it. As much as we love starwars, Lucas is far from being the greatest filmmaker !!

Two many "yes-men" is no good for Lucas. Exit Rick McCallum & co.

 

Lucas still hasn't proven himself a good director.

 

Eh? There is absolutely no evidence of Kurtz' creative involvements during the first two films of the OT. ANH, a true classic, is Lucas' own, personal work. He does work well with the right kind of people but he can come up with decent stories on his own too.

Take it from me: if you want to criticise Lucas, do it on decent terms and with grounded arguments and not just to up your post counts.

 

Kurtz' involvemetn doesn't have to be proven.

Anyway, it is not a crime to criticize Lucas.
Who do you think you are to judge other people's opinions sir ???

There can be no discussion if you decide what other people are allowed to think or not.

 

lost faith after viewing ROTJ regained some before TPM and now have none.

 

It's fine to criticise him; I do him more than often lately. The thing is, you have to come up with a valid argument which many of the "bashers" don't. It makes this place boring.

 

I'm not a basher.

That was not bashing.

You can agree or disagree with me, but do not attack the validity of my arguments.

Period.



ps : And you can still read Kurtz' and kershner' interviews on the net.
I'm not saying Lucas didn't make the OT. I said he was surrounded by "no-men".
This has been confirmed many times by the OT cast and crew.

 

Kurtz had zilch involvement in the creative aspects of Lucas' films: he is now a tired, bitter old hack who makes money in the wake of the TPM wave of diappointment by bad-mouthing Lucas.

Sure, Kershner had a massive involvement with ESB: this does not overshadow Lucas' involvement though.

 

my faith never left lucas.

i liked both the phantom menace and attack of the clones.

 

AL wrote
>if you want to criticise Lucas, do it on decent terms and with grounded arguments and not just to up your post counts.

I agree wholeheartedly. Whether you're going to criticise or praise, the point is to provide analysis to back up your claims. That's what criticism is. It's the easiest thing in the world to generalise, e.g. 'AOTC sucked! The dialogue was awful, the acting was terrible, it was nowhere near as good as the original trilogy'. I've seen more posts than I care to remember along these lines, both here, on Amazon & the IMDB, & what annoys me about them is not that people didn't like the film but that they rarely provide any examples or analysis to back up their claims. They're simply parroting comments they've read or heard elsewhere.

Look, if you think GL is a terrible director then pick a scene that illustrates your point. Tell us what's wrong with it & how it could be improved. If you think AOTC is the best SW film yet then explain why & give us a few examples to support your claim. But don't just settle for making lazy generalisations because it's boring. You never know, with a little bit of effort you might just find yourself persuading a few people to your point of view!

 

I'm late, but I never lost faith in the brilliance of Lucas.

This was bound to end up in a mindless Kurtz/McCallum comparison. I'll bypass that.

One topic that intrigues me is that after TPM started getting bad reviews, those who don't like the new SW movies have had a certain way of "explaining" things by saying that Lucas is notoriously a bad director, and especially in working with the actors. Well, I wonder if this was his reputation back in 1977? That's actually the last time the man directed a film until TPM in 1999. I doubt that people were looking at THX, Graffiti and Star Wars and thinking "this is a bad director" in the same way some people have been saying so after TPM.

Imo, Lucas bad rep as a director stems from the fact that some people really hated TPM.

I loved it. I'll admit that the dialogue is strange. But in SW, strange is wonderful and otherwordly. SW is written as a certain way of speaking, and I love the fact that it is not comparable to contemporary patterns of dialogue. Especially considering the fact that SW is written in English.

With AOTC, Lucas reconfirmed his excellence as a director. The Tatooine sequence of this movie is possibly the most overwhelming, disturbing and powerful sequence in any of the SW movies. It's becoming my fave SW sequence of all time. And yes, the actors did a great job - BUT, the excellence of sequences such as this is also testament to a great directing talent, who is unfortunate in the short term because he works in a different world (different dialogue patterns, different clothing, different creatures), and is thus very often not appreciated by critics, peers and even his own "fans". All this will change in time, as the public's distance to the PT movies will become more like our distance to the OT, and the dialogue and all the other stuff will be seen as being of a different world, and not simply a "poorly written or directed" version of something contemporary.

Bottom line; you can not tell me that I would be watching something as powerful and excellent as the Tatooine sequence of AOTC without there being a great director pulling the strings.

Adali-Kiri out.

 

I have great faith in Episode III. If Lucas answer all questions we have in mind, that'll be -MAYBE- the greatest of all episodes!

 

I agree. I have said since TPM that Episode III will be the greatest of them all.

 

Kershner:

I like how people constantly bring up the fact that Kershner directed Empire Strikes Back, "the best one" when they have-

-NO IDEA-

-what it would have been like if Lucas had directed it. Maybe it WOULD have been worse- I don't know. But did you ever think that just maybe it could have been better?

Dialogue:

You know; story, character development, action and effects, and everything else is just second servings to the dialogue, right?

Yeah. Maybe Lucas should just forget all the other crap and focus on perfect dialogue for the next three years. You know, it would be so awesome just watching the script on a movie theater screen. MAYBE a few storyboards here and there, but in the long run they would take away from the golden dialogue.

And if Lucas DOES plan on focusing on the dialogue while also making a visual film, he should take notes from Empire Strikes Back- 'cuz by God, that movie had the best dialogue ever. I mean- every time I see Empire, every time a character spouts something, I am immediately mesmerized by the thoughtful, sexy, and mind boggling words. I mean- the dialogue is just so vast and perplexed... wow. Just wow. That is what Star Wars is right there, yo. Everyone foolishly thinks it is the enchanting locations, the characters, and the fantastic atmosphere and story that makes Star Wars so great.

Well, I'm here to tell those idiots that it all lies in the dialogue. If not for the dialogue... everything else in Empire would have just been for the birds. I mean, that asteroid chase hadn't have been so intimidating without C-3P0's beautiful, platinum words of wisdom.

Screw everything else. I could care less if Episode III is an actual movie. As long as Lucas just makes the script perfect, I'll be fine. We don't need ANY visual flair at all. Dialogue is what makes Star Wars, and Star Wars is what makes dialogue. Here's to Episode III having the best dialogue ever.

And God forbid there actually be a plot. But I guess perfect dialogue makes a plot good in the first place.




Oh yeah, and here's what the dialogue in Episode II should have been like, in the love scenes. This makes it more realistic and not so fake.


EXT. GEONOSIS EXECUTION ARENA

ANAKIN and PADME are standing together in the execution trolley. The RIDER prepares to take the victims out into the ARENA.

PADME
We're going to die- aren't we?

ANAKIN
Yep.

PADME
Like- see like- uh- ever since you came back into my daily life, see, I've been dying each day.

ANAKIN
Are you saying you love me?

PADME
That's right.

ANAKIN
But I thought we weren't allowed to love- that it may distract from our jobs.

PADME
Oh well. I love you.

ANAKIN
I love you too, baby.

ANAKIN and PADME kiss. The RIDER takes them out into the ARENA.

ANAKIN
Hey, like if we live- wanna go to the movies?

 

And very well said. Perspective.

 

How can faith be restored when it was never lost to begin with?

 

RAINBIRD,

The AL posts you're quoting and agreeing with were aimed at me, so I guess you're aiming at me too.

-Can you quote me in this thread saying that Lucas is a terrible director ?
No you can't. So please, read before you post.

I said that AOTC restored my faith in Lucas the driector.

-I brought up the Kurtz/Kershner/Kasdan/others issue as a "no-men/yes-men" issue.
So I can't see how I could be attacked for that !!??!!

There were many conflicts about what should be done or not, back then by the time of the OT. Just like in *any* movie.

That was not meant to be an attack against "poor little" Lucas. Never.

The "Beginning" documentary on the TPM's DVD just shows how all powerful Lucas has become. It's not his fault, really. And the fact that this very interesting, somewhat critical and objective documentary made it to the DVD is really Lucas' credit. I applaud him for that.

Limitations (not necessarily dire straits, there are many kinds of limitations one has to deal with) make better art than "all-powerful-ness".


-Can I find exemples of bad directing from Mr Lucas ? Sure I can.

First, let me say that it is always bad directing coupled with bad writing more than just bad drirecting or bad writing alone.

Most Tatooine scenes in TPM are badly directed. But not only Tatooine scenes. Naboo scenes are lame for the most part : uninteresting settings, flat scenes, etc. Too many characters with nothing to do but fill the screen and kill tension, actors obviously not knowing what to do (with ovious exceptions like Neeson in many scenes).
You have a bunch of people saying uninteresting lines in uninteresting shots, with no tension at all.

(by comparison, AOTC is much better : heroes are on their own. OB1 faces mystery alone, and Anakin and Padme are not surrounded by dozens of naboo officers, pilots and handmaidens all the way through. It helps feeling they are in jeopardy !).

Plot points are introduced clumsily, and they aren't given any "weight". Is what is said given any importance at all ? Nope. There's a talk about prophecy, chosen one, sith return, balance of the force, but nobody seems to really care. It seems to have no real impact on characters.

To the point where some of these plotpoints are totally forgotten in AOTC, and hardly mentiooned at all.

With the wonderful story George has written (yes, I love Anakin's story, Palpatine's rise, I love the whole prophecy thing, midi-chlorians, etc) there was enough material to write great, tense scripts.

Instead, Lucas came up with something rather flat and confusing for the non-fans, and even for many fans ( a look at many fan boards is enough to get a clear idea of what I'm talking about).

A good fantasy/action script must have tension in it. It can have mystery, suspense, things may (must!) not be what they appear to be. The "phantom menace" concept is a good one. But there should be one clear and menacing danger hanging over the heroes' heads. Not quite the case in TPM and AOTC, unless you already know what's coming after. We do. Thanks to the OT.

But the PT should not be seen only as a parasitic trilogy to the OT. It should stand better on its own.

Not the case right now. Because we never feeel threatened by the trade federation nor the separatist movement (blink and you miss it in AOTC, until the last 40 minutes. And even then, it is never made clear what danger the clones are gonna face when they board their ships at the end. Sure, one can figure it out rather easily, but if we could feel the theat of war like something more real, it would help ! As it is presented in AOTC, it looks like what it is : a political plot device. Not a real menace).

Do you ever feel like there is a need for an army to protect the Republic ? Hardly ...

Do you ever think of the separatists like a major threat ? Nope. Not until they are about to be defeated by the clone army !

Sure, it's all set up to help Sidious/Palpatine get more power. Nevertheless, it works only as long as people feel really threatened and have the

 

I realize I didn't give any precise exemple of what I (IMHO) see as bad writing/directing.

I know you'll flame me for that, so before you do :

-In TPM, the menace is a phantom indeed :

*The Sith are never a direct threat indeed. They are meant to remain in the shadows and never reveal their true identity (sidious/palp) and true goals.

Still, we discover after 3 minutes that Sidious is the master mind behind everything. So we (the audience) couldn't care less that QGJ and OB1 wonder endlessly what motivates the TF moves on Naboo and what real danger threatens the Queen.

*The phantom menace has almost as much screen time and lines of dialog as the evil Emperor in ROTJ.

Although Sidious is a menacing presence when he first appears, seeing him as hologram every five minutes at the end of the movie makes him look less and less menacing. This small hologram on the walking chair in an Italian palace full day light setting is not impressive at all (plus all the TF representatives and battle droids going 'bout their buisness in the background ! Talk about secrecy ! How many people know that the Viceroy is in league with a Darth Sidious who looks like an old man in bathrobe !).

*While the Sith cannot be a direct threat for obvious reaons (but they lose all their mystery and presence as we see them repeatedly in unimpressive scenes throughout the movie (Small Maul walking alongside Neimoidians in Theed corridors with no presence at all !), the Trade Federation is supposed to be the big Vilains of TPM.

°However, it is clear from the beginning that they are silly cowards, and no match for the Queen and her entourage.

°Their oppression on the Naboo people has yet to be seen.
Sure, detention camps are mentiooned once or twice. But never do we see the TF guys and battledroids as a real threat.

In fact, we do not see Naboo people in TPM. We see Governors, senators, politicians dressed in velvet robes and babbling about democracy.

But no people, no oppression, no suffering.

Weesa do not care about da Naboo !!

*Which is a problem for the movie as a whole : When the Queen goes to the senate, there is no tension at all. We don't really know what danger we're facing.

Alll the excitation comes from one element : the guy dressed in blue velvet who stands in the background is the future evil emperor. Brrrr ...

But that element of danger comes from our knowledge of the OT. Not of TPM.

*Since the Neimoidians are meant to be the "smoke screen" vilains of TPM, they should have at least some kind of motivation, which would help us seeing them as dangerous.
Some kind of motivation that Sidious uses to manipulate them.

Greed. Yep.

The trade federation is greedy.

And how exactly Sidious uses it to achieve his own ends ? How can their greed be satisfied with the blockade on Naboo ?

What's the problem with the TF and Naboo to begin with ?

All the smart fanboys will tell you : it is of no concern. It is all set up to have palpatine elected Supreme Chancellor.

Sure.

But do you realize that we are left we no direct threat, no real directly menacing vilain (be it a smoke-screen !), no real motivation ! No sense of danger ! No tension !

Just a flat, descriptive : Sidious is pulling the strings to get into a position of power.

Well.

Thank you George.



In AOTC, the vilains have motivations. And it works much better.
Dooku is a charismatic leader, Nute wants revenge and he is definitely cruel and vicious, and Sidious only appears once in a dark, gloomy Sith hangar setting.

Now that's better.

Thank you George, without any irony this time ...

 

It's just the TF wanting to take over Naboo. Palpatine made a bargain with them. It's not a very big issue. I'm not trying to defend Episode I here. But I think this argument about villains and motivations not in Episode I is a bit, well, underwhelming.

It's not exactly worth complaining about.