Did AOTC turn Star Wars into a science experiment?

Now hear me out before the flaming begins. I think that the PT had a lot of potential, given the list of actors whoes credentials are incredible. But I have got to say that after seeing AOTC I have lost some faith in Mr. Lucas.

The problem is not the CGI itself but how it is used. Let me compare AOTC to Lord of the Rings for a minute. In LOTR they were very selective of how the graphics were to be used. Most of the CGI is used to give grandios lanscape shots of the incredible environments. There is very little CGI on up close shots when there is character dialogue.

The use of the CGI was out of control in AOTC. I got the feeling that I was watching a cartoon sometimes instead of real movie. And I know that I am not the only one who thinks that the CGI YOda was not a good idea. Maybe for the fight sequences but the up close shots are a far cry from the puppet we came to know and love in the OT. Dex was another dissapointment for me. His facial features are obscured and he stood out like a sore thumb. But the worst by far was the aliens at the Seperatist meeting. The flathead guy was almost embarassing to look at.

Liam Neeson was right to say what he did. I am not saying these things out of anger or anything like that. This is just constructive criticism. I don't think that I would be doing my duty as a fan not to bring up this issue. My worst fear is that Episode III becomes another CGI fest with sub par, unconvincing acting.

My point: I think that Lucas is more interested in pushing the CGI envelope than making a quality film that utilizes the talent of its actors. The CGI is only there to enhance the story, not to tell the story itself.

 

Please post examples of scenes/shots where you think CGI is misused, that way this could turn into a very interesting debate.

And let's remember that SW and LOTR are very different stories in very different settings.

Cometgreen

 

I realize that SW and LOTR are very different stories, but that it not what I am comparing it too. What I am comparing it to is the usage of the CGI, and that element only. I can give you a list of where I thought the CGI was misused.

1. Dex- that character would have been much better in makeup, with shots as up close as that. It just looks too fake that close up.

2. Kaminoans- The way they move was classic CG character, too fluid and smooth.

3.Yoda- Must this one be explained. Why on God's green earth would you make an inconsistency between movies as turning one of the most prominent into a CGI one. Don't get me wrong, some shots of him are great, but some are poor as well. It is just not good policy IMO to have these huge differences between the movies.

4. Theepio (in the droid factory)- Another no brainer, when he falls onto the the flying droid, I cringe everytime. It looks really bad.

5. Aliens at the Seperatist meeting- The flatheaded guy looks like it was done in the early 90's.

These are just a few examples of the CGI overuse. Notice that it always revolves around characters. Too many CG characters means sub par performance on the part of the actors and unconvincing roles in the character themselves.

 

"2. Kaminoans- The way they move was classic CG character, too fluid and smooth."

How about that's just how they are? Maybe that's how they are meant to move? Why should they have to walk like humans or without some grace?

"3.Yoda- Must this one be explained. Why on God's green earth would you make an inconsistency between movies as turning one of the most prominent into a CGI one. Don't get me wrong, some shots of him are great, but some are poor as well. It is just not good policy IMO to have these huge differences between the movies."

I agree to an extent on this. But the only puppet that I can see that is out of place is the Episode I puppet. That's just god damn awful. Replace that with CGI Yoda and I think it fits well. CGI Yoda fits in much better with OT Yoda then PT Puppet Yoda. But then it was based on ESB Yoda so there you go.

"4. Theepio (in the droid factory)- Another no brainer, when he falls onto the the flying droid, I cringe everytime. It looks really bad."

Yea it looks bad, but is it any worse then Legolas doing that weird jump spin onto the horse? That really was bad imo.

"5. Aliens at the Seperatist meeting- The flatheaded guy looks like it was done in the early 90's."

I wouldn't say the early 90's, I don't think they spent too much time on him though. That's half the problem, with the amount of CGI in the film, they had to give on something and to be honest hes on the screen for how long? Two seconds? Who cares.

Although I do think he looks like the guy from the ILM Work In Progress.

 

I agree with what you say, and the gusher parade will be in here soon so brace yourself.

 

*sighs*

LOTR vs. AOTC. How original, how original.

LOTR : Middle EARTH
SW : STAR WARS , in a GALAXY FAR FAR AWAY

There you have it. The reason why Star Wars has more CG than LOTR.

Such an easy & childish explanation. But sometimes, childish explanations are very effective.

 

i consider myself a true star wars fan, having been enchanted by star wars since i was 5, and 18 years later my love and fascination is still as strong. i read and collect all star wars related merchandise within reason (meaning i didn't bother with the amidala cut out dress book or the jar jar cookie jar) star wars has played an important role in my life, and whenever i am depressed i just pop in the OT and i can forget about my problems. that being said, i am tremendously disappointed with how the prequels have gone so far, though aotc was better than tpm in my opinion. too much cgi, no chemistry between the actors, terrible writing by lucas (when anakin and padme are in the field rolling around i squirmed in my seat)and not giving us what we want to see. that means showing us why anakin is the chosen one. he has pretty much done nothing so far, other than his short little fight with dooku. come on now. i'm praying epIII produces on that front. while the cgi for the most part has been fantastic, i do feel that they have been relying on it a little too much, giving some scenes an uncomfortable artificial feel to them. the scene when anakin is in the arena and jumps on the beast looks terrible, though the other two creatures look good. too much cgi can be a bad thing. yoda in my opinion does not have the same feeling to him that he had in esb or rotj, since he is not really there. as neeson pointed out, it is not the easiest thing to act with a blue screen, though these people are actors. there are good cgi scenes, but sometimes they are a little overwhelming and star wars loses its most important aspect, which is the human aspect. we are supposed to empathize with these characters, and so far they are pretty flat, except for obi-wan i believe. anakin has one good scene, when he tells padme he killed them all, and he says "i hate them". that was the only time i connected with anakin the whole movie. lotr has truly done some fantastic things, and as a whole, i believe it to be the superior trilogy over the prequels so far, though it pales in comparison to the magic of the OT. sorry, but i just think that is the case. lucas has the chance to salvage a pretty bad situation with epIII, lets just hope he does. LONG LIVE STAR WARS!

 

My whole point in making the comparison between LOTR and SW is that these are touted to be the most imaginative, fantasy movies ever produced. And besides, you have missed my point completely. I am not saying that the use of CGI for environment purposes is not any good. In fact, I believe that is where it enhances the story the most. But the luducrous use of it for characters that react to real actors is taking away from the story.

The CGI is out of control. It is very hard to comvnce yourself that what you are seeing is really there. Did you see the Episode 2 extra with Chris Lee. When he is talking about the acting into thin air he sounds like "For God's sake George, let us act a little." You can just read it in his demeanor.

 

I loved Aotc, but I have to agree with you that there was too much computor graphics. Especially Yoda! Didn't GL have the original puppet? Why couldn't he have used that. Yoda just didn't seem right.

 

I've said this before and it still applies.
It really no longer makes any difference whatsoever what Lucas does he will be subjected to irrational whining. People complained about the Yoda puppet in TPM,
then when he went to a CGI Yoda, people
complained about that too. And the CGI Yoda isn't as good as Gollum according to some people and on and on it goes. To infinity and beyond! It's never gonna stop. If he'd used both a puppet Yoda in AOTC for dialogue scenes and then a CGI Yoda for the fight with Dooku, they wouldn't have matched within that movie and people would have complained about THAT. BTW, I thought Dex looked great.

He uses CGI because it's cost-effective, it gives him lots of options and he can maintain great control.

No one here has ever been and probably never will be in the situation Lucas finds himself where he is subjected to world-wide un-ending criticism for everything he does. He's a fairly intelligent guy and I'm sure he has good reasons why he makes the decisions he does. CGI is just a tool, to help create illusions. Ever seen Gone With the Wind? To enhance the film and save money, producer David O. Selznick used matte paintings. He used what he had available at the time. That was SIXTY FOUR years ago. And Lucas is doing the same thing. Some things never change.

It's not a science experiment.
He's just making a movie.

 

But at least In Gone With the Wind the characters interacting with each other were not CGI. All i am saying is that the CGI characters are not as good IMO as real performers. If CG is to be used for an actor, it should always be a last resort.

And I understand that it is cost effective for Lucas to do what he does. But, i still believe that the extra mile that he could have gone to make some of those characters real instead of CG would have made miles of a difference. Does he really want to say in the end "Well, perhaps the movie would have been of better quality if I had spent more on the effects." That would not be a good reason to say things are the way they are.

I am not here to start a debate about which is better LOTR or SW. That is purely a matter of personal opinion and there is no way that you can prove that you are "right" or that someone else is "wrong". I am merely stating my opinion and trying to engage in a bit of constructive dialogue. If that is too much for you to handle, take your hate elsewhere.

 

I don't hate.
That leads to the dark side.
And it's bad karma.

 

-i don't believe my statements are irrational whining. they are constructive, are my own opinions, and are shared by many other people. i will be the first to praise something i feel is worthy, and also the first to deride something i feel is not worthy. i was in denial a long time after tpm, not admitting to myself that it wasn't that great of a movie. it was a good movie and had some great moments in it, but it wasn't great. i watched the duel in the end literally hundreds of times, it is my favorite 4 minutes on film of all time, the only part in tpm that made me say wow this is what we have been waiting for. while some bashers bash just to do so, i feel that many of them don't have the knowledge or understanding in their statements that should accompany them. but they are opinions, and everyone is entitled. everytime i have critisised star wars i have backed it up with why i feel that way. sometimes i agree with the bashers and sometimes i don't. that's all.

 

You know people always thought TPM was overboard with CG, but watching it recently when compared with AOTC, it seems like it has barely any.

All I'm going to say is this: when I watched TPM, I felt like I was on Naboo, Coruscant, and Tatooine. I felt like I was with the characters going to those worlds, meeting those aliens. I never felt that during AOTC. The factory was about the only time, but I never felt involved in the visuals, I always felt like I was just watching them from my seat, I never felt like I was there.

 

My sentiments exactly Rebel Scumb. TPM was a better flick, IMO. It felt much more like Star Wars than AOTC. You felt like you were there because the scenery for Naboo was actual footage, not CGI.

 

*wonders if CMoney knows the difference between models and CGI*

So you're saying you're unhappy with the amount of cgi characters? Well, I can see how you feel. I personally would rather have cgi characters than guys in masks, but I must say that the long headed Separatist leader with the lisp (is he the flat head you're talking about) did look unfinished. His textures just seemed flat.

Cometgreen

 

when I watched TPM, I felt like I was on Naboo, Coruscant, and Tatooine. I felt like I was with the characters going to those worlds, meeting those aliens. I never felt that during AOTC. The factory was about the only time, but I never felt involved in the visuals, I always felt like I was just watching them from my seat, I never felt like I was there.

Maybe this has to do with AOTC being shot with a digital camera?

 

I love AOTC because it looks so different from other SW films. It's not just, the Falcon flies through the umpteenth starfield.

 

"But I have got to say that after seeing AOTC I have lost some faith in Mr. Lucas."

I have heard many renditions of this line...people "losing all faith in George" is a common complaint with people here, and everywhere else. The problem I have with it, is that it insinuates that George Lucas has done something wrong, as if he was expected to do something really great but made a huge mistake and screwed it all up. Its as if people were clinging on to the hope that the prequels were going to be what THEY wanted them to be...and since they are not what THEY expected, George has screwed up, and lost all credibility.

The difficulty I have with this is that George did EXACTLY what he wanted to do. He's made these prequels just how he wanted them. He re-molded the stories of the characters, added some richness to the events of the OT, used CG to free up his imagination, gave everything a very romantic old serials style of film, completed the star wars story as HE always invisioned it....and yet WE'VE lost faith in him. HE didn't do anythign wrong! It's YOU guys who don't like it! So it's more your fault than his....he won't agree when he hears how you wanted the prequels to be. He won't say "****, you're right, these do suck, I should have done what you wanted".

This feeling of "loss of faith" paints George out to be some artist who just turned INSANE and started screwing everything up, and here you are, the sane one, objectivley suggesting that he's lost his way. George hasn't lost his way, he's GOING his way. If people don't like it, then that's their fault. The story just isn't for them. The story is not wrong, it's just not their cup of tea, oh well, move along.

But the problem is that in the last 30 years, Star Wars has entered the public realm and has become somewhat public property. Everybody has made it their own, by assigning their own spiritual weight to the films and extracting their own inspirations/values from the story...this process of warming up to the movies has made us believe that Star Wars is our property, that it is sacred ground. We forget that Star Wars is simply a work in progress that George let out of the cage for a little while, and we don't realize that it's still HIS.. .and that its not a matter of us having faith that he'll complete the movies as WE want them, but of us having faith that he'll complete the movies as HE wants them. The artist serves HIMSELF, not the public. It's as if we're trying to overthrow the artist. That's not how it's supposed to be.

I dont see it as much as him disappointing us, but as us disappointing him. He's had faith that he'd capture our imagination and spirit and that we'd stick around for the whole ride, but we've bailed out on him because the movies are not how we wanted them, but here he is, up in the front seats of the ride going "what's wrong with these people? I thought they were on my bandwagon? too bad, I guess they just didn't like what was in store".

I'm anticipating you guys are going to rape me for this post, but those are just my thoughts.

 

I much preferred the effects of Jurassic Park, when Steven Spielberg used real dinosaurs for the close-up action shots. I can't believe he would go through all the trouble of hatching and raising dinosaurs just for a film, but that is what sets Spielberg apart.

Besisdes the original Star Wars trilogy doesn't have CGI whatsoever, yet we still were taken to Dagobah, Cloud City, Tattooine, and Hoth. I don't know if we really went to Endor though.

 

Wow, that was quite a tidal wave of cynicism. It's only an opinion guy, calm down. I don't feel like Star Wars is mine or that Lucas "owes" me something. Just stating my opinion is all. You can respectfully disagree without having to blow a gasket. This is possible. But if you are going to put your movie out there for public consumption, you open yourself to public criticism. That is the nature of things.

I still am a Star Wars fan. I am not denouncing some kind of imaginative allegience or whatever the case may be. But as a person with an opinion I have to say that I am not convinced by much of what I have seen, especially in AOTC.

In my opinion, the PT would have been of a much better quality if there had been more emphasis on performance than on seeing how much CGI can be done. It just feels empty. Now, flame away.

 

"In my opinion, the PT would have been of a much better quality if there had been more emphasis on performance than on seeing how much CGI can be done. It just feels empty. Now, flame away."

That's assuming that there is more emphasis placed on the CGI than performance.

Cometgreen