Did AOTC turn Star Wars into a science experiment?

Insidious: Why should more people think it looks real? I think it looks real and that´s enough.

 

lol, all this fuzz about what is in fact probably 2 shots of a waterplanet - only in StarWars

should they use REAL laserbeams so that it just looks better too ?

should they actually create some sort of pod-scooter & start flying through woods or caves ?

should they take actual footage of Space for space-fights ?

should they use Real Asteroids/Rocks for Han & the gang to skirmish in ?

etc. etc.

this is StarWars, a world in a galaxy far far away

let's keep it that way

 

Insidious I share some of your sentiments regarding sets and miniatures.

However, a problem since the beginning of effects work has been getting water, real water, to scale right.

Typically, modelmakers build large-scale miniatures with full-scale water so the water itself won't give away the scale of the ships.

Practical water can be used today for small inserts and shots, but tank work is very difficult.

It can be done, ILM did it for some shots for Pirates of the Caribbean, and WETA did it to better affect on Master and Commander than TTT IMHO, but water-scaled work is very time-consuming to get right.

It also takes more artists.

More time + more artists than CG Particle/water work = more money.

It should be noted however that Master and Commander's visual effects houses Asylum and ILM incorporated actual storm footage shot around Cape Horn into some of their storm sequence shots.

Don't ask me how they shot it but they did.

 

So it can be done; it's not next to impossible or anything like that. More time consuming, but AOTC went through almost 2 years of post anyway. Why risk breaking suspension of disbelief when a reasonable alternative is available? It's the same situation as with the all digital clonetroopers.

 

...who also look perfect

 

Insidious

More money and more time is not Lucas.

Lucas is "cheaper and fast enough they won't notice."

Things are "good enough" not perfect.

Listen, ILM had 18 months to pump out about 2200 effects shots. They had to find a way to do things to get the job done.

They didn't have time to build a tank and shoot wave footage over and over to put into what, 2 shots? Not cost-effective enough.

They already had R&D for water done by the crew for The Perfect Storm and the pipeline already established.

There job is to get the job done on time and on, or UNDER, budget.

As long as it's good enough for Lucas, it's good enough for them.

 

clonetroopers look real in some shots, fake in others. A few suits being made would've made them look real all the time.

Lucas' "good enough" attitude blows. But beyond that, it wouldn't have needed to be done in full-scale.

 

It just going around and around and nothing new has been said.

I know you're referring to this thread in particular, but that statement could be used to described these forums in general. It's one of the primary reasons I stopped frequenting these boards.

 

Every penny that is spent on a STAR WARS film is George Lucas's money. The man
should certainly have the right to decide
how it's spent. These are hugely expensive films and costs can get out of control very quickly. Costs spiraled out of control on THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK and the financial nightmare that Lucas had with the First National Bank of Boston taught him some valuable lessons. So the guy is frugal. I don't blame him.

You have to also consider things from a certain point of view. Lucas nearly killed himself on the first Star Wars film and was very disappointed with the results. He thought the movie barely worked at all. But when it was released to the public, it became the biggest hit of all time. It did phenomenal, unprecedented business. All of the flaws that drove Lucas crazy didn't bother the audience, especially the kids, one bit. So from his perspective, why spend money like crazy when a lot of people won't care anyway? I don't necessarily agree with his approach or philosophy, but I understand why he thinks that way. And unlike those of us discussing these things theoretically on a message board, it's his life, his money, it's real. So let's lighten up on the guy, huh? This stuff's not that important. The fires ranging through southern California, killing people and destroying property, THAT'S serious. This is just movie stuff.

 

I'm jumping into this thread a bit late, but that's life.

I saw AOTC in the theater and the CGI was just too much. There were several shots of the Clone Wars that just looked too much like a video game. I saw an ad for the video game on TV and thought I was watching an ad for the DVD. In other words, the clone wars in the movie looked exactly like the video game graphics. I have a 27" Sony digital TV that was only a few months old at the time, so I did see it in very good circumstances.

The CGI should be used sparingly, especially the blue screen stuff that the actors have to act against, IMHO, of course, but I think it would make the film better.

I'm not even going to go into the whole "who's a bigger fan" argument. I'm surprised the mods haven't at least warned some of you for flaming and/or baiting.

 

I think there has to be some consideration for the type of setting the two films (AOTC and LOTR) are based in. To create the kinds of environments seen in SW films...CGI is a necessity. Look at sci-fi movies of the past (pre-CGI) and you'll notice alot of them LOOK fake (think "Logan's Run" or Star Trek TV series) Now, in comparision, LOTR can get away with more live sets and models...because the world is meant to resemble our reality. It can be used to blend live action with models (Helms Deep wide shots).

GL has always been a pioneer in the development of special effects, and it's no secret he developed CGI to bring his ideas as a filmmaker to life. I wouldn't call AOTC "a science experiment"...just another example of GL leading the industry towards new ways to bring their vision to the screen. Sometime it works (in the case of SW) and sometimes the "old tricks" still work better (LOTR)

 

Lady_Sami: I´m sorry, but if you think the Clone Wars video game looks as good as the CG in AOTC, you have very poor eyesight. In the future, we will have games with a graphic quality that matches film CG, but today, it´s impossible to do.

 

Eyesight 20/20. Sorry, I said the CGI in AOTC looks like the CGI in the video game, not the other way around.

The arena scenes and the clone wars battles were too heavy in CGI. On Kamino, the CGI was needed, IMHO, because that world doesn't really exist. It worked for me there, the factory shots of the baby clones in their canisters, the Kaminoians, etc., looked pretty good.

As for Yoda's battle with Dooku, each time I saw that scene in the theater, even in IMAX, it drew derisive laughs from the audiences. Yoda looked like a frog on speed and was moving so fast, you couldn't even tell if he was hitting Dooku's saber or not.

I know Lucas is trying to push the envelope, but a judicious use of CGI to enhance the story is much better, again, IMHO, than using the effects to excess.

That is why LOTR succeeds, where AOTC fails. The Hobbit hole exteriors were REAL. Jackson had the grass growing for a couple of years before they began filming. It's that attention to detail that makes a movie great.

 

There were crappy FX in the OT just as there were in the PT. People were willing to cut the OT some slack and suspend their disbelief because the story was pretty good.

Lots of people are critical of a lot of things in the PT, but I think really what it comes down to is a story telling element. When you usually ask people if ther was anything they would change about the OT it is usually just the Ewoks.

There seem to be a whole lot more issues with the prequels - partly because people could see perhaps some better alternatives story wise to what was presented. What do I mean?

1. The introduction of the Sith and the rise of Palpatine in power was largely the result of a trade dispute? Hello! This is supposed to be a fun action movie.

2. The incredible coincidents (its a small galaxy after all). Anakin building C3PO, the Fett DNA being the source of all stormtroopers, etc.

3. Yet another destroying the reactor saving the day.

4. Anakin's and Padme's relationship.

5. The story behind the Battle of Geonosis.

6. Naboo in general and the Gungans.

7. The close relationship between the
Jedi Council, the chancellor's office
and the Senate.

8. The movies are called Star Wars. There weren't a lot of wars amongst the stars. We spend most of our time planetside rather than in starships.

 

Let me compare AOTC to Lord of the Rings for a minute. In LOTR they were very selective of how the graphics were to be used. Most of the CGI is used to give grandios lanscape shots of the incredible environments.

sorry for coming in late but lotr is based on actual shots in New Zealand. I have pics to prove it. Of Course mt doom doesnt exist but many of the others did! You can actually see a car pass by in one of the shots.

1. The introduction of the Sith and the rise of Palpatine in power was largely the result of a trade dispute? Hello! This is supposed to be a fun action movie.

Who do you think was controlling the Neimodians. Read Shadow Hunter and Cloak of deception it goes into the background of the neimodians. this was supposed to be fun plus tell the backstory. Remember this is Vaders Story dont expect everything to be happy.

 

2. The incredible coincidents (its a small galaxy after all). Anakin building C3PO, the Fett DNA being the source of all stormtroopers, etc.

I agree it is a little far fetched but maybe GL was trying to weave the movies together. About Jango, he is really the background for Boba, the clones are all dead by Eps4. So it is just a concidence that jango is the donor of the clones!

Yet another destroying the reactor saving the day

Well I guess when it comes to big round space ships overlooking a planet the only way to take em out is their reactors.

Anakin's and Padme's relationship

A little corny dialogue if you ask me! But you need a love interest and you need to tie in the movies again. Someone needs to know what were Lukes and leias parents were like!

The story behind the Battle of Geonosis

yeah the end of the movie speeds up and would be nice to have a scene with yoda and the Kamonans talking and the troops gatherering together. Maybe they will address it in cmics or a book! You never know.

Naboo in general and the Gungans.

I loved Naboo, It was pretty, The gungans were another alien species George needed to fill in the gap. Did they work, well thats up to the moviegoer to decide.

The close relationship between the
Jedi Council, the chancellor's office
and the Senate.

easy If you work in government you will know all the agencies work together on international affairs. The jedi are like the FBI/CIA, They investigate, lead raids for criminals and sometimes lead armies in far off places. unfortunately Palpatine could keep himself hidden from everyone, yet few knew something was up with him! This is the basis for the PT the underlying current of palpatines rise to power despite the fact that no one knows what is going on! Yoda knows the dark lord power is growing. All the victories are merely Palpatines way of controlling the outcome!

 

I just watched AOTC again on TV, courtesty of HBO and the clone wars part looks just like the video game. At the end of the sequence with Bail, Palpatine & co. looking out at the massed troops and Star Destroyers, the shots of the troops and ships look just like the video game.

Also, on Geonosis, I don't know if it's the dust or the lighting or both, but again, it looks like the video game.

 

LOL, this is hilarious.

Cometgreen

 

GL has always been a pioneer in the development of special effects, and it's no secret he developed CGI to bring his ideas as a filmmaker to life. I wouldn't call AOTC "a science experiment"...just another example of GL leading the industry towards new ways to bring their vision to the screen. Sometime it works (in the case of SW) and sometimes the "old tricks" still work better (LOTR)

But GL's approach isn't influencing anyone. What films since TPM have been so CGI soaked? I can't think of any at all, let alone any good ones.

Good filmmakers follow the trend set by Spielberg and Cameron, CGI only when it's needed.

 

Orson Welles once said that the enemy of art is the absence of limitations. Despite the fact that CGI opens up an almost infinite world of possibilities for the filmmaker's palette, the fact that George is frugal with his expenditures creates a line of sanity and limitations on spending too much money on CGI and the film itself. CGI is a great money saving tool. The shot of Mace walking on the concourse outside of the Senate and meeting up with Yoda as Jar Jar moves to give Palpy emergency powers is a great example. Rick McCallum estimated to build that as a set would've cost $ 170,000. Instead an ILM CGI artist created it on the computer in a few weeks. There's nothing real in that shot except for Samuel L. Jackson. Even the carpet is CGI. The scene of Anakin and Palpatine talking in the Chancellor's office is all CGI, there is no set, it had long ago been torn down after it's earlier usage. Hayden and Ian did that during additional shoots on a blue screen stage. I doubt many people in the audience noticed.
Good show.

 

Anyone who has been to Canyonlands or has watched the great canyon vistas for the Hulk film know that Geonosis does exist on Earth.

It would have looked better to shoot on location and then enhance those shots with effects.

That was the original plan at ILM, but Lucas told them to just create it in post.

There was an actual background plate for the distant background, but for just a portion of the shots.

 

Shut up?