Did Darth Plagueis create Anakin Skywalker?

Plagueis was probably dead long before Anakin was created. If the Rule of 2 stands, he must have been dead before Darth Maul was trained, and Darth Maul was being trained before Anakin's birth. That Lucas quote suggests that IF it was the Sith, it was "a super-Sith" - namely, Plagueis, NOT Palpatine. In the quote Lucas never considers the possibility that Palpatine could have done it. In his mind, if it was a Sith, it was Plagueis. And Plagueis was dead.

As for Palpatine, the book - line-edited by Lucas himself to remove any innaccuracies - makes it very clear that they cheat death BY creating life. It's the same power, used in a different way - they influence midichlorians to create life, create cell-divisions, and keep people alive. If you can do one, you can do the other. So when Sidious says "To cheat death is a power only one ("my master" in the novel) has achieved", he's basically saying he can't create life. He's a liar. Plagueis never passed the ability down to his apprentice. He was just trying to lure Anakin to the dark side.

My wife pointed out that at one point in the movie, Palpatine refered to Anikan as 'son'. Again, not proof, but definatly something to think about.

Obi-Wan says "Rest easy, son" to Luke in ANH. Doesn't mean he's his father. Palpatine is trying to lure him in by playing the father-figure.

 

If the Rule of 2 stands, he must have been dead before Darth Maul was trained, and Darth Maul was being trained before Anakin's birth. That Lucas quote suggests that IF it was the Sith, it was "a super-Sith" - namely, Plagueis, NOT Palpatine. In the quote Lucas never considers the possibility that Palpatine could have done it. In his mind, if it was a Sith, it was Plagueis. And Plagueis was dead.

And what says this? Where in the movie does it say Plagueis was dead and that Darth Maul was training before Anakin was born? Anakin started training at 9 years old, what says Darth Maul had to start training as a baby? He didn't look THAT old. Maul being DS's first apprentice leaves plenty of room for DP.

 

Lucas on one of the commentaries said Maul was trained "from scratch" - basically, from infancy. That's also been the line taken in all the novels, visual dictionaries and things like that. Official LFL word is that Maul was trained as an infant or young child.

 

Lucas on one of the commentaries said Maul was trained "from scratch"

You mean, like Anakin?

- basically, from infancy.

That's your interpretation, but we know it doesn't have to be that way. Anakin starts at 9 and Luke starts WAY later.

That's also been the line taken in all the novels, visual dictionaries and things like that.

And the people writing those novels were not clued in to what was happening with ROTS. There's new inconsistancies between film and EU with every new movie. So i'll pass on the EU references until they've had enough time to get all their ducks lined up in a row.

Official LFL word is that Maul was trained as an infant or young child.

And? Anything said before ROTS that could effect ROTS is nullified BY ROTS. I'd be more interested to hear that official word now that the saga is complete.

 

Well judging by what palpatine told Anakin at the opera the answer is yes. There has, as far as we have seen been only one person created through the force and that is Anakin. If Palpatine tells him that Darth Plaguies had the power to create life by using the force, the only person we know of who was born that way was Anakin.

 

This to me was the masterstroke of the film. It was left open to interpretation, but I love feeling that I'm dead right with mine.

Think about how Lucas structures his stories. He's bent on parallels.

Palpy is a genius when it comes to taking over galaxies.

It's obvious in his delivery that Palpatine was Plagueis' apprentice. Who knows how old Palpatine is? I'll go further to say that Darth Plagueis created Palpatine, who grew as his apprentice and then killed him. He's lived far longer than normal, keeping himself alive with the Dark Side. Some have said that the Force lightening scarred him. Not so. It takes effort to look like the Senator/Chancellor. Once his seize of power is imminent, he reverts to his natural state and tells the Senate a lie about disfigurement to gain their sympathy.

During the opera scene, the story of Darth Plagueis passing on his knowledge and his apprentice killing him in his sleep was told pridefully as Palpatine recounted one of his greatest moments. It perfectly fits with the mysterious nature of Anakin's conception. Palpatine knew that his ultimate, prodigal apprentice would be this boy he created, so to keep him hidden from the Jedi he created him in a slave woman on Tatooine.

It mirror's the Jedi hiding Luke from the Sith in the same place. Qui-Gon confirms the idea by saying something like "He would have been discovered earlier if he didn't live in the sticks." They've established in both Ep I and II that Naboo is close to Tatooine. Palpatine establishes his residency on Naboo, begins his rise to power, and simultaneously watches over the neighboring boy. Again, this mirrors Obi-Wan living near the Dune Sea to watch over Luke.

In the meantime, Palpatine fosters other apprentices knowing his Anakin was growing up to replace them. He's a strategist. He trained Darth Maul with the hope that he's take out a few Jedi before the New Order. Obi-Wan put an end to that.

Dooku (Japanese for "poison") was the perfect apprentice for the time, a loyal and intelligent pawn whom Palpatine used to start the war. Once Anakin was ripe, Dooku had outlived his usefulness.

So... Was it the will of the Force or Palpatine that had Obi-Wan point to the screen and say, "Here Master... Tatooine" in Episode I? I'm reminded of LotR's prologue: Then something happened that Palpatine had not intended... He rolled with the Jedi finding Anakin, then he timed his move to Coruscant to coincide. "I'll be watching your career with great interest," he tells the young boy.

I think the book goes into more detail, confirming what I suspected that Palpatine or one of his agents hires the Sandpeople to kidnap and torture Anakin's mother, similar to how Vader tortures Han, Leia, and Chewie in Empire to lure Luke to Bespin.

Ultimately, this helps to explain Anakin's turn beyond other criticisms. Palpatine is the father he never had, and Anakin senses this. In Jedi when Vader tells Luke, "I must obey my Master," he's saying, "I must obey my father... and so should you, ya little whippersnapper."

It also helps to explain why Palpatine would even bother with this disfigured monster at the end. There is an attachment there, an investment, and he understood that being an abomination would cement Anakin's turn.

 

^^^^^

Right on colorscheme!

 

have been coming to this website and reading through these forums ever since I was a a sophomore in highschool when Phantom Menace came out. This however, is the first post. With that introduction aside . . .

It could be that Darth Sidious simply didn't know WHERE Anakin was. If you look at all the secrets Sidious himself kept from all his apprentices - Dooku and Anakin at least, it seems Maul might have been simply a mindless puppet - it seems totally plausible that his own master would have kept such secrets from him. In order to be a true Sith Master it seems, not only do you have to fend off all your numerous enemies and evade the Jedi, but you have to be able to keep your apprentice on a leash too. Dooku and Vader both wanted to overthrow Sidious but he was able to maintain his supremacy and accomplish everything else for more than 36 years (span of EP 1 - 6). That takes skill.

So Plaugeis in all his power desides to quit leaving Midi-chlorian counts of future Sith up to random luck and create a super being. This makes sense. If all children in the republic were tested by the Jedi and taken for training, it must have been difficult for the Sith to get the best students with the highest midi-chlorian counts. Plaugeis plans for this new super being to eventually replace Sidious and become the ultimate Disciple of the Dark Side. Seeing all the times Sidious had tried to off and replace his own apprentices, this seems plausible. Sidious might have found out about it and took the opportunity to strike while the time was hot, kills Plaugeis, and then doesn't know where Anakin is. So while he plots and schemes his way to power, he knows that out there somewhere is this super-force-weilder waiting to be trained.

The Jedi find him first however and he is still a small child, no good to Sidious. So he uses Dooku to keep things rolling until the time is right. It seems that after watching all three of the prequels that Palpatine is always slowly grooming Anakin for his destiny as a Sith apprentice. He doesn't hesitate at all when telling Anakin to kill Dooku and later when talking to the General Grievous seems very confident that Anakin will turn to the dark side.

Also, something else I noticed while I am in the mood to write. It seems that Sidious, at least in one seen, cares more about Anakin than himself. The scene I am referring to is when he confronts Yoda and says, "You can't beat me. Darth Vader will be more powerful than both of us." It seems he is proud of Darth Vader, and the knowledge that with him turned to the Dark Side, the Sith will finally be victorious. Even if Yoda kills him, he has still won. It seems that just for a moment, Sidious cares more about the Sith tradition and its rivalry with the Jedi than he does about his own personal lust for power and ambition. This scene is at odds with all the rest of of his screen time when he is all, "Me, Me, Me". Also, when he remarks that he senses "Lord Vader is in danger," it seems he has true concern. Then when Anakin gets toasted and loses a great deal of his power, Sidious is pissed cause his hopes and faith in the future Darth Vader are vanquished. That could be why he speaks with such contempt when wanting Luke to kill Vader. Luke is what Anakin COULD have been before he went and blew it, and the Emperor is totally pissed that he has had to put up with this failed prodigy all these years.

I haven't seen anyone else post on this, so I would be interested to know how others interpreted it.

Well, first post ever. Wow.

-C

 

Anakin was created by an Irish guy named Will.

Will O'Daforce.

 

At a key moment in Menace, Palpatine is delighted to see how successful Anakin was at the battle of Naboo. If he had not had plans for him ALL ALONG, he would have been ticked that the Jedi unearthed such a powerful ally. The only reason for him to be extra happy about this was that he new Anakin was to be his in the end. There are way too many parallels to be ignored in the saga, and another is the "No, I am your father" idea.
There is just way too much evidence contradicting the profecy - a profecy which you'll notice is always interpreted by the Jedi. Point of view is important, and the Jedi are certainly not correct about everything. In fact, when it comes to the Sith, they are usually quite clouded. Who's to say the Sith did not create the profecy, which was later mis-read by the Jedi?
I just can't believe there is this much foundation for a theory for it to be completely ficticious.

 

For me, it's a rush to judgment to think that Anakin was created by Sidious/Plageus. I don't buy it.

But while we are talking Plageus, I wanted to throw out some interesting info. Back in medieval times, when Augustine established the doctrine of grace (only by striving for or attaining grace can we hope to do God's will; without grace, we will fail), he had a classic rivalry of ideas with a British priest named ... PELAGIUS. Augustine vs. Pelagius ended up being one of the paramount debates in the history of the church.

Pelagius did not buy into the grace argument, but instead argued that free will and our virtue were made independent of God, and that grace is not a factor. Instead, it is entirely up to us--religion and morality lie entirely within our free spirits, and are at all moments completely up to us to establish. Thus self-acquired virtue is the supreme good we can achieve on earth. Long story short: Man has complete control over affecting a godly state. It's in our realm and in our power to achieve, not the result of some divine gift of grace.

Because of Pelagius' views, he was ultimately labeled a heretic by the church.

So, the force, where Jedi give themselves to the will of the force, and adhere to this greater universe for their power is at odds with Darth Plageus' belief that he can forge divine powers for himself and achieve them by extending control over the midichlorians. Rather than surrender to the will of the force, and trust in the "grace" of the force, the Sith attempt to manipulate it for their own personal power.

Along with order 66, the virgin birth, and other points of the saga, I think Lucas is using historical ideas here to contrast the views of the Jedi with those of the Sith (Augustine vs. Pelagius), and for me, this adds some great overtones to the opera scene.

 

You gotta be kidding me?

No.

 

Lucas says maybe he did, maybe he didn't - he'll let the audience decide.

Ian McDiarmid says that the dots are there if you want to connect them.

 

I don't know. Sounds like a possibility. It was either the Force or Plagueis.

 

I voted "no" because I believe in the prophecy.

 

DarthyMarkyMark

Well done.

 

Lucas says maybe he did, maybe he didn't - he'll let the audience decide.

Ian McDiarmid says that the dots are there if you want to connect them.

Why do I suspect that this is how Lucas is going to leave the Mace/Palpatine duel as well?

I voted "no" because I believe in the prophecy.

A prophesy that misinterpreted, might have been.

Violetsaber

 

The "We'll be watching your career with great interest." scene was created and filmed only weeks before TPM shipped to theaters.

It is less likely part of an elaborate plot line and more likely something done to tie up the end of the film.

 

The way I see it is like this. The Jedi believe that he's the Chosen One of legend, who will bring balance to the Force, as seen by his being a virgin birth and conceived by the Midichlorians. However, Sidious knows that his former master was able to create life by manipulating the Midichlorians. Since Sidious catches wind of the circumstances of Anakin's birth, he believes that his master may've created him, and that he will be destined to be a great Sith Lord and lead the Sith to glory. And, with Anakin's turn, it seems that he's right. The viewer is left with the belief that the Jedi were wrong and the Sith were right. Then Luke comes along, and I've even heard from friends that have only seen Episodes I, II, and III so far, that HE must be the Chosen One. And the story seems to follow this belief; Luke is the real Chosen One while his father was created by a Sith Lord. Then Return of the Jedi rolls around. We are led to believe that Luke is the Chosen One until he decides that he must turn his father back to the light. If he was the Chosen One, surely it would be his destiny to kill both Vader and Sidious. However, since Luke believes his father still has good in him, to kill him would make him a Sith Lord as well. Luke throws his lightsaber away. Sidious, enraged by this, begins to kill Luke with his lightning. Now, the focus of the camera is back on Vader. This is interesting from a filming and narrative stance, because for the whole second trilogy, the focus is more on Luke than on Vader. The audience is supposed to believe that Luke is the Chosen One and that there is no hope for Vader. Then, Vader IS the hope. Anakin picks up Sidious and throws him down the shaft. Anakin's redemption proves that he was not a creation of the Sith. He is the Chosen One and was born by the Will of the Force. The Jedi were right and the Sith were wrong, and the audience realizes this by the end of the movie after his redemption and when he appears as a ghost next to Yoda and Obi-Wan.

 

'A sith lord so powerful that he could even manipulate the midochlorians to creat....life'.

The moment when Palpatine tells Anakin who Daddy was.

'It is your DESTINY'.

Anakin was concieved by the force, manipulated by plagueis.

Palapatine is UNDOUBTEDLY the apprentice of Plagueis.

Case closed.

NEXT?

 

If Lucas dismissed the idea of Palpatine/Sith creating Anakin, then he dismissed it 100%. If you go with the theory then you ruin the entire story of Vader ; he ceases to be the chosen one and when he destroys Palpatine in ROTJ he is not fulfilling his destiny. If you ask me, that makes Star Wars far less enjoyable and enriched from a story-telling point of view. Anakin is clearly the 'son of the force' and you could argue that this is why Palpatine must have him on his side ; he knows Anakin is the only one who can destroy him.

Also, there seems to have been a mis-interpretation of Palpatine's line "he could even influence the midi-chlorians to create life". To me, that's just another way of saying he could prevent death ; by "creating life" he means you are "preventing death". He isn't implying that you can magically create some midi-chlorians in a some intergalactic test tube and send them to Mos Espa on Tatooine and have some unsuspecting slave give birth to a baby. He is meaning that you influence the midi-chlorians of the person you are trying to save. Makes sense does it not?

 

Darth Plagueis died 800 - 1000 years before EP1. Palpatine killed him, after he had the knowledge of the Midi's at al., and when the time was right, created Anakin to be his Super-Apprectice. How ironic that it was Anakin who kills him.

 

If Lucas dismissed the idea of Palpatine/Sith creating Anakin, then he dismissed it 100%. If you go with the theory then you ruin the entire story of Vader ; he ceases to be the chosen one and when he destroys Palpatine in ROTJ he is not fulfilling his destiny. If you ask me, that makes Star Wars far less enjoyable and enriched from a story-telling point of view. Anakin is clearly the 'son of the force' and you could argue that this is why Palpatine must have him on his side ; he knows Anakin is the only one who can destroy him.

First off, where did Lucas dismiss anything of the sort? If he did, please post either a quote or a link and i'll be happy to admit to being wrong.

Secondly, i don't see how DP creating Ani and the Prophecy are mutually exclusive. The Prophecy is still fullfilled, everything that the prophecy said was going to happen... happens. Sounds like destiny to me!

Just look at the people who read Nostrodamus or Revelation. The Revelation believers don't actually believe Jesus will return with feet of brass and a sword sticking out of his mouth, do they? Even THEY say that type of stuff is figurative. Same with the Nostrodamus believers (Unless the "great fish" he mentions is actually supposed to be a giant FISH). Prophecy in the real world is really hard to read for all the symbolism. And among 100 believers in a particular prophecy you are likely to get at least 70 different answers as to what it means.

I just don't see how this interferes with anything at all. At any rate, if it's sooooo unbelievable why include the line in the first place?

As for the "Palps lied" mantra, Dooku told the truth and no-one in the SW Galaxy believed him, and VADER told the truth and no-one in either the SW universe OR the real world believed him (Not in 1980, anyway). Plus a lot of what Palps says in RotS is, you guessed it, the truth (with a DS spin on it, but the truth nonetheless).

Also, there seems to have been a mis-interpretation of Palpatine's line "he could even influence the midi-chlorians to create life". To me, that's just another way of saying he could prevent death ; by "creating life" he means you are "preventing death". He isn't implying that you can magically create some midi-chlorians in a some intergalactic test tube and send them to Mos Espa on Tatooine and have some unsuspecting slave give birth to a baby. He is meaning that you influence the midi-chlorians of the person you are trying to save. Makes sense does it not?

Actually, Palps mentions both of them as if they are separate abilities. He mentions that DP could ALSO stop people from dying (In addition to creating life). I think you may be the one misinterpreting.

It's not so cut and dried as the WotF people might wish it was. We have GL to thank for that.

P.S.~ I'm not being snotty, honest. Online it's hard to discern things like that, so I wanted to make it clear that i'm just debating in a friendly but serious way.

 

In my mind, it is a resounding NO.

It's just garbage being fed to Anakin, so he would turn.

 

Look at it this way: At least we have something to debate other than "Why the PT sucks/rules" this time around!