main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Did Dooku know that Anakin was going to turn

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by BruceM, Dec 27, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    All forseen. Palpatine purposely called Obi-wan and Anakin back, when he was taken. He calculated the time it would take, which was pretty quick. He knew that they'd make it alive, because he had forseen it.

    They don't know which ship Palpatine is aboard. And the Republic forces were situated as such, so that they couldn't jump to lightspeed. To make a jump would be foolish if another ship was in your way.

    Mace and Yoda were on the planet fighting Battle Droids, designed to keep them at bay. Other Jedi who were still on Coruscant were unable to get through as they were either shot down or swarmed by large numbers.

    But he didn't know that the Ewoks would help the Alliance bring down the sheild. The risks were exactly the same. Only he took one set of risks into account.

    He also had to use this for another purpose. To justify to the Senate the need for tighter security and more power for himself. It would also reaffirm faith in Palpatine, if he is taken and then rescued by Anakin.

    How about, "Everything that is proceeding as I have forseen."


    Not remotely.

    Palpatine was building a new DS, which would be better than the old one, no weak spot. If it was completed it would be very bad for the rebels.

    But rather than getting it ready and then spending a lot of time chasing after the rebels he makes the rebels come to him. He sets a trap and then waits. If the rebels do not come, he still has his new DS and he wins anyway. If they do come, he has stacked the field heavily in his favor. He has his entire fleet there and he also has a large number of soldiers at the bunker, plus the DS is working.
    That was the plan, then as a bonus he gets Luke without even a fight. So he has Luke on the DS and the trap is ready for the rebels and he has everything under control. He only overlooked one thing, the ewoks.

    Compare this with the much larger number of variables in RotS that Palpatine had little to no control over.[/quote]

    Again, he didn't count on the strike team meeting with the Ewoks, who would provide backup. They in turn would help mount an offense which results in Chewbacca confiscating an AT-ST, which is used to turn the tide on the ground. And is used to get the doors open, allowing Han and the rest to blow up the generator. Thus allowing Lando and Wedge to get inside. There were variables there too.


     
  2. Green_Destiny_Sword

    Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2001
    SINISTER-- Just looking at your Last point in that post, what is the explanation for why Vader would then block Luke?s strike at Sidious??? If he wanted everything you say he would have let Luke kill Sids out of hate and anger and fall to the Dark Side. But he didn?t.

    And with regards to Sidious calling Obi Wan and Anakin to come rescue him in ROTS: are you saying that Sids, knowing he would be kidnapped, ordered Obi Wan and Anakin to the ship in advance? It seemed pretty certain in the film that the 2 Jedi were on a rescue mission, meaning they were ordered to go to the Invisible Hand after Sids was captured
     
  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Because Luke could still not turn. He himself killed in anger and hate, but he did not turn. Vader believed that Luke still needed more coaxing into embracing the dark side. He rejected them once. This shows that he's stronger than they had thought, which Palpatine said earlier. So he has to get Luke to the point where he won't reject the dark side. Where he won't walk away.

    Palpatine sent the signal once he was captured. At the same time Anakin and Obi-wan learned of it, the call came in from Coruscant to come home. This signal from Palpatine is how they knew where to locate him once they arrived at Coruscant and were heading for the Invisible Hand. BTW, they were not ordered. The title crawl doesn't indicate that they were ordered to lead the rescue mission.
     
  4. DarthWolvo23

    DarthWolvo23 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Sinister - the point with Anakin is that once he killed Dooku in cold blood Sidious knew Anakin would turn to the dark side. He confirms this in the next scene in the movie when he knows he will soon have a new apprentice.

    So if Luke struck down Sidious in anger he would've basically joined the dark side there and then. it is having the restraint to not kill a helpless foe (as Kenobi exercises in ROTS) that separates a Jedi from the dark side.
     
  5. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004
    About the number of variables, either you misunderstand me or you plain don?t get it.
    I?ve never said there were NO variables in the RotJ battle, just there were far MORE variables in the RotS battle.

    In RotJ the one thing in the overall battle that Palpatine could not control was the ewoks. No matter what the rebels did, he had it covered. If they never showed up, he would get his new DS and win anyway. The fleet was there to prevent the rebels from escaping but if some of them got away it would not matter, he would have his new DS and win. The rebels engaged the ISD's at point blank range but that only meant that the DS could not destroy them, just that the ISD?s had to do the job. Even Ackbar admits that the rebels would not last long against the ISD?s. So there was really only one big variable that Palpatine overlooked, the ewoks.

    In RotS Palpatine could not control if the ship he was on would ever get fired upon or hit by any stray fire or run into damaged ships, he could not control if the damage would have been critical or not. If a clone gunner had aimed a little differently and hit the tower he was in then that gunner would have fulfilled the prophecy by killing Dooku and Palpatine and possible Anakin as well. He could not control what the other jedi did, he could not control if the other jedi or any of the republic forces tried a rescue. He could not control that Obi-Wan and Anakin would try a rescue, that they would get there before his ship got blown up or that they would be able to get there alive.
    He could not control if Anakin and Obi-Wan would bring other jedi with them as back up. Plus there were other factors that he had little to no control over.

    So there is CLEARLY a larger number of variables in the RotS battle that in the RotJ battle and I can not see how you can deny this.



    About Palpatine force visions, for him to try a very uncertain and needlessly risky plan like this and still be confident it would work, he would have extremely detailed force visions. So detailed it says, ?in 15 minutes Obi-Wan will scratch his nose, in 1 hour Anakin will yawn, in two days 500 soldiers will fire at you but they will all miss?.
    Things like that.
    This makes Palpatine almost omniscient and essentially all-knowing and thus pretty much a god. Hey, perhaps he did know that Maul would die but the force told him that he would find Dooku that was much better. And perhaps the force told him to let Padme escape because that would serve his plans better if she did make it back to Coruscant in TPM.
    No, to me it is bad storytelling to have a character this all-knowing for him to try something as risky as this and still be confident to win.



    For GG?s ship not leaving, you do know that ships are able to move in real space yes? If there were ships blocking GG?s ship then a simple solution is to move so that they no longer block you or use some the other separatists shi
     
  6. rumsmuggler

    rumsmuggler Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 31, 2000
  7. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2005
    Sidious knew, because he had been manipulating Anakin to this moment for 10 years. He knew that Anakin already had given in to the Dark Side on Tatooine when he slaughtered the tribe of Sandpeople, and he knew Anakin would open himself up to it when facing Dooku...even then, Anakin did not become Sith. Anakin didn't devote himself to the Dark Side until Palpatine gave him what he wanted most, a chance to save Padme from his vision, much later in the movie, after telling him about Darth Plagueis, after dangling what Anakin wanted in front of him. His Dark Side rage against Dooku did NOT turn Anakin. It was one of many steps Anakin needed.

    Luke would NOT have turned right there and then. Even striking Palpatine down in anger is no guarantee. Anakin had motivation to continue down the Dark Side, Luke did not. Once Palpatine was dead, he had no reason. Luke also hadn't been manipulated into that position for a decade either. Obi-Wan didn't kill Anakin because he was his best friend, even to the point that he considered Anakin his brother. It wasn't because he was helpless, it was because he was ANAKIN. Obi-Wan wouldn't have given Darth Maul the same compassion, would he?
     
  8. BruceM

    BruceM Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 8, 2006
    Ya, but if mace windu didnt attempt to kill Palpatine, Anakin would have been fine, IMO. Since his nightmares only became true because he went down the dark path, he would of had Luke and Leia, they would then live fine. Sure, he may have struggled a bit, but that last two known sith lords would be dead.
     
  9. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2005
    But, he didn't know that by striking Mace, he would become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If Mace had succeeded in striking Palpatine down, All Anakin knows is that Palpatine was his link to saving Padme, and would most likely blame Mace and the Jedi for ruining his chance at saving her. He would operate under the misinformation Palpatine already gave him, and would most likely kill Mace for ruining his chance at saving Padme. Anakin does not know the circumstances leading up to Padme's death, he just knows that Palpatine has promised him that they will find a way to keep her alive. If Palpatine dies at Mace's hands, Anakin would see his chance at saving Padme gone, and would go berzerker on Mace Windu. Anakin was in a no win situation. By saving Palpatine, he thought he was saving Padme, without knowing he is in effect, causing the chain of events that lead to her death...yet, if he had done the opposite, while WE, as viewers know that Padme would have probably lived, he doesn't. He would still go Dark, because he would believe that the Jedi caused Padme's death, and would let loose his rage. Just by showing up in Palpatine's chambers when he did effectively sealed his fate as going to the Dark Side. Now, he wouldn't have been Sith, as Palpatine would be dead, but, he would have been a very powerful Dark Jedi, and only after he had caused a lot of death and destruction might he consider the fact that his visions didn't come true, or there is the possibility that Padme still would have had a broken heart and died anyway as a result of his anger towards the Jedi. Basically, Anakin was already damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.
     
  10. DarthDork

    DarthDork Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2002
    It was lame, and throwaway dialouge all the way. The fight would have been better without it.
     
  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    I'm not denying anything. All I'm saying is that Palpatine is willing to take the risk and it paid off, except for the fact that Obi-wan lives and Anakin has not gone over. One step closer, but not all the way.

    It's like this. Palpatine wants his plans to succeed. So he looks at the future. He knows the future is in motion. So he sorts through the tangled web of possible futures, seeking the ones that are in his favor. He then removes the variables that he sees as a deterrant (sp). He can be taken off guard, but nine times out of ten, his visions are correct. He constructs a plan based off his visions. Ones that tell him the two Jedi will make it to the ship unharmed, make it to the General's quarters and that he and Anakin will survive the battle. He as in Palpatine. He doesn't know about Obi-wan.


     
  12. MN_JEDI

    MN_JEDI Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2003
    darthsinister posted:
    Luke would join because his mind is vulernable enough to believe that the only way he can complete his training, is to go with Palpatine. Anakin was closer to falling by killing Dooku. But not all the way. He needed that extra push to stop resisting. Palpatine thinks that because Luke isn't all the way trained, it will be much quicker to seduce him.

    That does make sense. Anakin was a trained and well experienced Jedi Knight. About 13 years, right? It was more work to turn him in the end than it would have been with Luke, who was far less trained and experienced. Therefore, easier to turn.


    And let's face it. The Emperor that knew Vader would protect him when Luke gave in and tried to kill him. This lead to the duel, which was what both Sids and Vader wanted. It was only after the fight that Luke was at his most vulnerable state to be turned. But as we know, he resisted nevertheless.
     
  13. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2005
    I dunno if it was the result of a vision that gave Palpatine reasonable assurance that Anakin and Obi-Wan would rescue him, as it was faith in their abilities. Knowing that Palpatine engineered his abduction, I always read that scene as Palpatine knowing Anakin and Obi-Wan would be successful because they are ALWAYS successful. He knew based on their heroic exploits during the Clone Wars that they would be the ones to try to rescue him. Knowing that doesn't really require Force visions so much as it just needs a general idea about who the two Jedi in question are...Palpatine knew that they would come to rescue him and eventually succeed because, as the ROTS novelization points out, ITS KENOBI AND SKYWALKER, the two heroes of the Clone Wars. He staked his scheme on their abilities, another gamble that paid off for the Sith Lord.
     
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    That's a factor to be sure, but as pointed out, there are variables. Consulting the future and finding out for sure this would be the wisest course of action certainly helps.
     
  15. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004

    We've gone way OT but I think that the thread started about Dooku and if he thought that Anakin would turn.

    I feel that the events in RotS makes Dooku rather dumb, with the rule of two he was stupid to trust Palpatine.
    Even without it, the plan is not so good for him, if he lost then he would have to trust that Palpatine would stop a murderous Anakin. The point was to turn, in other words get to embrace his hate and anger. If that happens Dooku is in a bad spot.

    Then I commented on how the entire plan was risky as Palpatine and Dooku were in the middle of a shooting war and their ship could have gotten destroyed at any time. You then said that the risk was no greater in RotJ which I very much dissagre with but that is a toipc for another time.

    So in closing, Dooku was rather dumb to go along with this plan, rule of two or not.

    But there is one thing I have to comment


    But if I understand this logic correct then a jedi can give in to his or her hate and kill thousands of people and not fall as long as there is not a Sith Lord around to whom this jedi would pledge him or her self.

    If so then it means that after RotJ no jedi can ever fall as there are no more Sith.

    I can not really accept this as then the only way to fall is to pledge yourself to a Sith and if there are no Sith around then you can do anything without risk of falling. Before TPM the jedi could be very lax about warning their students about anger and hate because as far as they knew, there were no more Sith.

    No, the way I see it is that giving into to your anger and kill in hate will make you fall to the dark side, and after that you might be in servitude to a Sith Lord, if that Sith Lord was more powerfull than you.
    I can not see how you can kill as much as you want and still not fall as long as long as you do not serve a Sith.

    Regards
    Nordom

     
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Yes, but Dooku's problem is that he is trusting. He still has that Jedi tendency to trust people. He hasn't developed the paranoia that is prevailant in the Sith, like it does with Anakin.

    As I said, Dooku has never become the paranoid fool that Anakin becomes. Sith are by their own nature, paranoid. They trust with one eye, but the other is watching his back for the vibroblade in his kidney.


    You're missing the point. First, if there is no Sith around, the fallen Jedi will then pledge himself to the dark side and become Sith. Second, no Jedi should ever kill in anger and hate. No matter if there is a Sith around or not. It is against the Jedi Code and flies in the face of everything the Jedi stand for. Jedi can kill, so long as they do not give in to anger and hate. So long as they do not become greedy. So long as they are not attached to someone. So logn as it is in defense.
     
  17. BruceM

    BruceM Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 8, 2006
    Yeah, wasnt it Kenobi I beleive who said not to trust anyone, especially polititions, and since trust comes to attachement(sometimes), that wouldnt be good either. Either way, Dooku was a cowardice sucker who really wasnt a threat or anything.
     
  18. BlackRook

    BlackRook Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2005
    That doesn't really explain why Anakin was able to kill a village of Tuskens (women and children, too), and later a Sith lord without immediately going to the dark side, yet somehow, if Luke were to kill Palpatine (and apparently, just Palpatine), that alone would be enough to turn him to the dark side.


    Anyway, in regards to Dooku, I've just come up with a way that could've prevented him from looking like an idiot:

    Not having him know that Sidious was looking to have Anakin on their side.

    Seriously. Though the EU already has Sidious making hints to Dooku about being impressed by Anakin, and keeping an eye on him, etc, if it had been planned a little differently, with Sidious never really hinting that he wants Anakin on his side in the EU, then it could've gone like this:

    Sidious: "Lord Tyranus! Skywalker and Kenobi are becoming serious thorns in our side."
    Dooku: "I know, I told you that since Geonosis. Thanks for listening."
    Sidious: "They are our greatest obstacles. We can't take declare our Empire with Skywalker and Kenobi in the way. We need to get rid of them. Let's lure them out. If we capture the Chancellor, Skywalker will come running... uh, er, the Jedi will send their best men to rescue him."
    Dooku: "Hmm, that makes sense. Okay. We'll set up a trap. Let's have Grievous attack Coruscant and kidnap you."
    Sidious: "Yes... then, we trap them on the ship, and you kill them."
    Dooku: "Excellent. I get to kill two Jedi. I'll go tell Grievous."

    This way, Dooku doesn't know that Palpatine and Anakin are buddy-buddy and genuinely believes that the trap is designed to kill Kenobi and especially Skywalker. He's still a fool for trusting Sidious, but at least this way, the rule of two has no bearing on the plot (except for the intended outcome, which Dooku is unaware of), and Dooku doesn't look as stupid.
     
  19. BruceM

    BruceM Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 8, 2006
    He looked stupid without hands, and without a head
     
  20. BlackRook

    BlackRook Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Are you here to actually discuss something, or are you just going to go "lol dookus dumb" the whole time?
     
  21. PrinceEspaaValorum

    PrinceEspaaValorum Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Interesting! Most interesting! Now, has GL also said that Dooku was unaware of the Rule of 2 or that Sids duped him into believing that they were returning to a pre-Bane Sith Order?
     
  22. MN_JEDI

    MN_JEDI Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2003
    ^ That's possible. I think Dooku knew of the rule but was convinced that with the Jedi out of the way, there would be no more need to quiety sneak around with only 2 Sith. Maybe Dooku was under that impression. That would help explain his motivations a little better.
     
  23. BlackRook

    BlackRook Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2005
    The problem is, the rule of two wasn't just for secrecy- it kept the Sith from the infighting that always happened when there were larger numbers of them. Two was the minimum amount needed to carry on the order- one master, one apprentice. If the master has two apprentices, both might team up and kill the master (possibly at the risk of neither apprentice having learned everything they need), and then they either kill each other over supremacy (and thus ending the order), or they branch out with their own apprentices, thus branching the line. With more Sith around, they'll once again try to kill each other off, etc.

    Dooku, being an old Jedi master and, supposedly, being familiar with Sith teachings even before leaving the Jedi, should have understood the reasons this rule (formal or otherwise) existed. He should've known that having more than two Sith was an idea doomed to fail. That's why it doesn't make sense for Dooku to believe that Sidious would accept a third Sith, or worse, that he'd allow an entire army of Sith.

    Really, Dooku didn't become a bleeding idiot until the ROTS novelization. That book makes him idiotic, snooty, narrow-minded, and twice as arrogant. The worst part is, he didn't seem that far off in Labyrinth of Evil- which ends only moments before the beginning of ROTS. So apparently, in the span of a few minutes, he went from three-dimensional to caricatured stereotype, almost a parody of himself.
     
  24. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004

    But you have many time said that the killing of Vader would not turn Luke, only his swearing to serve Sidous would do that. Also how does a lone jedi pledge himself to the darkside? Swear an oath to himself or what?

    Simple question: If Luke killed Vader in hate but Palpatine was not there would Luke had fallen or not?

    Regards
    Nordom


     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Luke would've done what Anakin did after the Tuskens. Brood for a while and then come out of it. Only if the power of the dark side was such that he chooses to embrace it for himself, without a Sith Lord to teach him, will he go all the way. One has to seek the power and keep on looking for more. Letting their greed grow beyond control. The first Sith didn't have anyone encouraging him, but he did have a desire to know more about the Force than the Jedi were willing to teach. Hence the Sith were born as a result of this thirst for power. Luke doesn't quite have the thirst yet. So he has to be coaxed into wanting it. You cannot force them to turn. It has to be of their own violation. They can be encouraged, as I said. Anakin was on the path to darkness, but he didn't fall all the way. He needed to be encouraged time and again, before submitting due to the right stimulation. Luke needs to be encouraged to go against what he has learned. That's why Vader fought him. He needed more encouragement.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.