Did Gary Kurtz have the wrong job?

Ohh, and you were doing so well after your opening line...then it all went kinda downhill...

Have a beer! Or a non-alcoholic beverage if necessary!

Till then, eh. Neither Lucas nor Kurtz give a crap about this discussion.

Oh, great, you and your damn logic.
"We don't serve their kind here!"

 

It's always best to enjoy as many different things during your life as possible.

 

The funniest thing about all this is DI constantly asking for "proof" while his arguments consist of nothing more than old quotes and his personal opinion. Plenty of proof has been offered, and humorously, ignored by those who don't want to see it.

This thread is going in circles - circling the drain to be exact. Why does every Kurtz-focused thread here devolve into that?

QUEEN, feel free to add something other than this "$" to the discussion anytime.

Kurtz certainly made contributions to the success of 2 of the 5 films of the saga. I just think prequel bashers seriously overrate his contributions to the OT as a means to justifying their feelings about the PT. This point I made, a page or two back, wen curiously ignored in favor of more dollar signs.

 

I'm not much of a basher, otherwise I wouldn't have bought the PT DVDs. But they don't mean much artistically to me, unlike ANH or ESB. I just watch 'em and that's it.

 

When Lucas says he took responsibility for the mess and states that Gary was in-over-his head and did the best he could, he's obviously saying this wouldn't have happened in the first place had he not made the careless decision of giving Kurtz another SW gig after ANH. ESB proved that Kurtz was in-over-his-head producing a SW movie. DUH.

I see, the "DUH" makes it true. Actually the quote says Lucas took full responsibility and Lucas's biographer claimed that communication problems was the real culprit. But let us nip and tuck these quote to mean what you think. DUH.

Read up on the hell Lucas went through making ANH. Read how he had to double as PRODUCER because Kurtz was ineffectual and "not good with strangers". Read how he realized ESB was going to be an enormous undertaking and was weary of giving the job to Kurtz again. Read how he gave him the gig despite this because GARY REALLY WANTED IT. Read about Lucas' clear assertion that he (and other's) had reservations about Kurtz due to ANH's complications, but how he was willing to give him one more shot anyhow. If that's not loyalty, I don't know what is. Considering it was a stupid movie and Lucas paid the price with a lot of stress.....Yeah I consider the only logical reading of that to be a sense of loyalty---To Lucas, Kurtz deserved one more shot regardless of his reservations. That's loyalty.

And now, a homework assignment for ya. Read up on how Kurtz contributed a heck of a lot to SW. Read up on how Lucas thought Kurtz and Kersh were ruining his film and made his own rough cut that sucked. Read up on how Lucas realised they did a ggod job, how he and Gary were under each other's skin at this point and decided to part. Read up on the films Lucas and Gary worked together on. They were huge hits. Oh, and back up your comments with evidence and logic.

The facts speak loud. Kurtz became a pariah in the movie industry and the final nail was a non-Lucasfilm production. The fact that Lucas AGAIN ended up saving this chaotic Kurtz shoot was just poetic irony.

And I will read up as soon as you direct me to some evidence. If it is in this thread, point out the page.

 

Do you not realize that Lucas himself is a pariah? He's an absolute joke. If that wasn't solidified after TPM, then it surely was after AOTC, when the "he could've just been rusty" explanation lost any water it might've held.

George Lucas just may have had the biggest fall from grace in the history of American cinema. To go from being one of the most celebrated filmmaking visionaries to making the biggest disappointment ever....wow.

 

Truer words were ever spoken.

 

"Read up on how Lucas thought Kurtz and Kersh were ruining his film and made his own rough cut that sucked. Read up on how Lucas realised they did a ggod job, how he and Gary were under each other's skin at this point and decided to part."

Sorry, but didn't Lucas do that after seeing the rough cut? Most, if not all, rough cuts are crap, so you can't hold it against Lucas to want to make his own version, ESPECIALLY when editing is his forte.

DI: I've yet to hear anybody outside of these forums and I believe two whiny reviewers bash Lucas. He still seems to be well respected throughout Hollywood. Perhaps not as worshipped as Spielberg or some others, but when people have a list of Hollywood greats, Lucas always seems to come up.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go bite a head off a chicken.

Cometgreen

 

Truer words were ever spoken.
QUEEN_LEIA, it's NEVER spoken, not EVER spoken. I think you just said that Insidious was wrong.


Insidious, maybe he's a pariah now, but I don't think he was Hollywood's best friend beforehand, either... (struck a blow against studios by funding his own films... wants to put power in the hands of directors... pissed off the Directors' and Writers' Guilds over ESB crediting)

Still, I wouldn't worry about George's reputation in Hollywood. He's still got buddies like Spielberg on his side, a highly respected effects house under his control, etc. ... and it's not as if his career since finishing the OT was based in making other Hollywood people want to hire him.


Rick McCallum loves you!

 

See, but even though he pissed on Hollywood whenever he got the chance (as he was justifiably pissed off at the whole system), he was still respected for his filmmaking accomplishments, his contributions to the field. In 1993, a full decade since his last film, and even longer since he separated himself from Hollywood, the Academy still honored him with a lifetime achievment award.

TPM was a serious blow to his reputation as one of the great filmmakers of his time. I think a lot of people don't fully grasp what a monumental let-down that movie was. Not because it's bad, not because it's sub-par, but because it just wasn't Star Wars quality. It's a fine film by itself, but what counted in the end is how it is in relation to what it followed. This is what people had been waiting for for 16 years? George himself set the bar; was it really unrealistic to expect him to at least match it?

Even if Episode III is amazing, which it could very well be, I strongly believe that the failure of TPM will forever define the PT. Had Episode I been something like AOTC, then I'd be singing a different tune. But for George to recover from the TPM debacle, well, I don't know if it's even possible.

 

Especially since future generations will probably end up watching the films I-VI *, this feeling will pass. I'm in the "it's one saga and it's all good" camp.

Now, I'm not the sort of gusher who refuses to acknowledge that TPM struck a chord of disappointment with the world.

But I AM the sort of gusher who claims it was unavoidable, that expectations were too high. (Even from me.) And too bad for Lucas, but really, what was he supposed to do? It's not as if he PLANNED to make arguably the most successful movie trilogy of all time. People liked it. Great.

And I AM the sort of gusher who believes that 20 years from now people will remember the PT as fondly as the OT, together as one saga. Just as people now are about finished with accusing ANH of ruining Hollywood (hopefully)!



Lucas doesn't strike me as someone too concerned about his reputation anyway, and as long as he can still get enough people to listen to him to get his plans for shooting on video and projecting digitally (among others), I'd say he's good.



* Note that at present this is not how I recommend watching the films, or how I personally might show them to new people. But it's my prediction of what the norm will be. People who want to get into SW first will watch TPM first 'cause it's numbered #1.


On a side note, what the hell happened to Gary Kurtz in this discussion?


Rick McCallum loves you!

 

These Kurtz discussions inevitably return to the same territory that's been treaded over countless times. Lucas fanboys give him too little credit. Lucas haters give him too much credit. People who understand that film is a collaborative art form give him his due credit; nothing more and nothing less.

 

This is more in reference to the previous page than the current one, but everyone please lay off the personal attacks. And Zethlin, you were warned for gay-bashing before; this is the last one you'll get.

 

For me, ANH and ESB are the two strongest episodes in the series and I'm sure that Kurtz made his contributions but there were a lot of other people there to make it work too.

So what have we learned from this thread? Not a heckuva lot except that some guy likes motorcycles and Queen_Leia won't stop spelling Lucas with a dollar sign.

 

These Kurtz discussions inevitably return to the same territory that's been treaded over countless times. Lucas fanboys give him too little credit. Lucas haters give him too much credit. People who understand that film is a collaborative art form give him his due credit; nothing more and nothing less.

Well said.

 

"But I digress. ROTJ was successful and with the budget problems under control Lucas was able to do a lot of things not possible in the first two movies. We get the spectacular Jabba the Hutt, a freakin' Rancor, the Sarlacc Pit, the speeder chase in the forest, a galactic battle to end all battles, two very cool explosions (the Sail Barge and Shield Generator) and an entire Ewok village to boot."

Abstract - Hook'em in while they're numb to the FX without even looking at the story/character content. I'm sorry, but I prefer the story ideas originally presented in ROTJ. They're much more stronger; more layered and complex. I don't like my movies being pedestrian. Visuals can only last so long if there's not much depth to it, which ROTJ clearly intended to have.

Zeth - add the Lucas apologist people to your list of JJ/ewok lovers.

 

Dark Lady Mara: I wasn't "gay-bashing", as you put it! I was merely listing the sorts of people who'd take a liking to JJ and the Ewoks if they saw the Star Wars movies. Nothing to do with bashing anyone. My mother likes JJ, but I'm not bashing her! Please stop getting paranoid as regards to anyone who even mentions homosexuals. Homosexuals don't harm me, so I don't harm them. Live and let live.

If I was bashing homosexuals, then I was bashing EVERYONE ELSE in my list, including women, the elderly, sunday school teachers and infants...which I WASN'T.

 

MechaSuperior-
If Lucas didn't even want him for ANH, and ESB ended up being a disastrous shoot which needed to be "saved" by Lucas, why would he ever trust Kurtz's abilities as a producer ever again?

What?!

First you tell us that Kurtz was fired after ESB, you've been asked to show proof, you have none.

Next you tell us that Kurtz begged Lucas to let him produce ESB, you've been asked to show proof, again, you have none.

And now, in what must be one of the most bizarre claims I've ever heard in discussions on Kurtz and Lucas, you claim that Lucas didn't even want him for ANH.

I look forward to seeing your evidence for your latest claim!

But Kurtz was the man responsible for keeping a production rolling productively. That was his FUNCTION and he did a piss poor job at it. No Hollywood production would accept what Kurtz brought to a production.

I reckon most producers in Hollywood would die happy if they could produce just one film as good as American Grafitti, Star Wars or The Empire Strikes Back. Gary Kurtz produced all 3!
And as has been pointed out- Kurtz doesn't care about Hollywood (nor does Lucas) and all the BS that goes on there.

Obviously you are determined to bash Kurtz in any way you can. why you'd want to do that I'm not sure.

g

 

I read the post, I didn't see any bashing of any group...


People are paranoid

 

Obviously you are determined to bash Kurtz in any way you can. why you'd want to do that I'm not sure.

Substitute "Kurtz" in that post for "Lucas," "McCallum," or the "PT" and one could ask that question of others many times over.

 

Darth Insidious, I don't think Lucas has had the biggest fall from grace in the history of cinema. He has directed and produced some of the greatest and most loved movies of all times: SW, Indiana Jones, and American Grafitti. Even conceding your point that TPM is as bad as you say, every single great director/producer has had their shares of bombs and bad movies: Spielberg, Coppola, Bruckheimer, Scorcese, Kubrick and anyone else who has made in excess of like 3 movies. Why should a "bomb" (I use the term loosely considering TPM grossed over $400 million in the US alone) turnish Lucas so much but not other directors who have made both good and bad movies?

 

TPM isn't a bad film. It is, however, a sub-par Star Wars film. George Lucas had a perfect record going into TPM. He created two of the most well-known and acclaimed franchises in cinema history. He dragged elements of presentation kicking and screaming into the new world of film.

To go from that to being responsible for the biggest let-down ever is just astounding. Kubrick went from masterpieces to "only" great films. Even at his worst, he was better than almost everyone else. Spielberg's track record is littered with amazing works and some flops. Coppola went from the top of the pyramid to being almost forgotten. None of them had a fall as big as George Lucas. Even going outside of the filmmaking world, I have trouble coming up with anything that was more of a disappointment than TPM.

 

Well, that's for you. I don't think the public loved TPM, but I also don't think many people view it as the biggest bomb ever. Many people I know don't even view it as a bomb, just not what they expected.

Cometgreen

 

GL hasn´t fallen. In your mind, perhaps, but he´s still going strong worldwide. You can´t deny that.
If you do, you´re plain stupid.

 

I'm not saying that the public hated it, just that the overwhelming reaction was one of disappointment. The most common reactions are "That sucked" and "That's it? It wasn't bad, but...that's it?".