Did George Lucas Lie To Us?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by TheAnointedOne, Jun 20, 2003.

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  1. TheAnointedOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2002
    star 2
    I remember reading this quote from Lucas:

    "At one point, when Obi-Wan kills Darth Maul, he just fell into the pit. I looked at it and thought this isn't going to work because, if people like him enough, they are going to want him to come back and they're going to assume somehow he gets out of it. So I had to cut him in half to say this guy's gone, he's history, he ain't coming back. I'll come up with another apprentice. The whole issue of having apprentices, poor Darth Sidious trying to replenish his apprentice supply, is one of the main plot points."
    - Empire Magazine 07/99


    After watching TPM, I thought that we were going to get to see what sounded like it could be cool. Watching Sidious going through one apprentice after another until getting to Anakin. Obviously, this never happened and it is definitely NOT one of the main plot points. Is it me, or is GL very good at coming up with good story elements, but is unable to translate that into a good script? Or did he change his mind? Or did he just out and out lie to us?
  2. royalguard96 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 5
    Dooku was Sidious' next apprentice.

    As for the rest of your theory regarding Anakin, I suppose Episode 3 will answer those questions.
  3. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    You simply misunderstood what he was trying to say.

    He wanted to establish that Sidious was replacing his sith lords. He looses Maul, but gains Dukoo. He ends up losing DuKoo and gains Vader.

    First he wanted to establish that he could train a new Sith Lord if he lost one, and then he wanted to establish that even a Jedi could be turned into a Sith Lord.

    He had to do that because with Maul, he had a student from birth, and when he needed to replace him, he couldn't wait another lifetime, so he cut a corner by turning a Jedi who already had a lot of his training covered.

    Lucas knows how to do this right. You just have to trust him.
  4. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    It is a main plot point. After Maul he gets Dooku, then Anakin, then in the OT, he tries to get Luke.

    Besides, that quote from Lucas came in 1999. Back then, he had the idea of having a sith witch instead of Dooku. But he changed his mind. I would hardly call Lucas changing his mind to be "lying to us".
  5. Force_Prophet Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2003
    star 3
    I don't think he was lying to us. I think that 3 apprentices in 3 movies is a very high turnover rate. I think maybe GL just did not want the PT to be only about Sideous finding apprentices, there is too much vital plot that would have been pushed to the side.
  6. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Thing is, it's redundant. That point was conveyed with the battle between Luke and Vader in Return of the Jedi. From there, we gather the Emperor's nature and how he holds loyalty to no one, it really makes this "assertion of the Sith's nature" redundant and pointless. We already know the Emperor is loyal to no apprentice, and we'll see it soon enough. That's why it was a mistake killing off the only visible villain in the Prequels at the end of the first movie and introducing the second villain in the last half hour of Episode II.
  7. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Tarkin was killed off in ANH, noone complains about that, although he is the favorite villain of several fans. Besides, there were villains in TPM who survived: Gunray and Sidious.
    And I don´t mind Dooku being shown late in AOTC. He is supposed to be a mystery.

    I think it´s great to see how versatile Sidious is with his apprentices :)
  8. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Tarkin was killed off in ANH, noone complains about that, although he is the favorite villain of several fans.


    Tarkin wasn't the main villain though. He gave orders and so on from a distance, it was Vader that was carrying them out. Tarkin was the ANH equivalent of Sidious, he pulls the strings, but it's the puppet that we want to see. We saw the puppet throughout the CT, we don't get to like any puppets in the PT.

    Besides, there were villains in TPM who survived: Gunray and Sidious.


    Neither of which is particularly engaging. Sidious is okay, but he doesn't do anything but talk through hologram.

    And I don´t mind Dooku being shown late in AOTC. He is supposed to be a mystery.


    Mystery? The "mystery" is pointless and unnecessary because Dooku's death will probably be the first plot point in EIII. What's the point in having mystery around a villain that will have probably 45 minutes of screen time in 6 1/2 hour trilogy? The character wasn't given enough time to be familiarized and liked, so why should the audience be engaged with him? We started not knowing him, we end not really knowing him. Nothing was accomplished, and he's probably going to die within the first half hour of EIII, so it was all pointless.

    I think it´s great to see how versatile Sidious is with his apprentices.


    Like I said, we already get that idea by the end of ROTJ. We get one scene of him with his apprentice in TPM and that was it. It was unnecessary to have Maul then Dooku. Dooku should have been the main villain of TPM.
  9. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Like I said, we already get that idea by the end of ROTJ.

    Yeah, that would be terrific storytelling, to let us know this "already" at the end of the saga!


    Dooku should have been the main villain of TPM.

    You just have to look at my icon to realize why he shouldn´t ;)


    BTW: Dooku´s death will probably be the first plot point in EpIII? Where did you get that idea? I can bet 45 billion US dollars that he will die during the second half of the movie.
    He does have enough screentime!
  10. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Yeah, that would be terrific storytelling, to let us know this "already" at the end of the saga!


    It worked before for the OT itself. How is it any different now?

    You just have to look at my icon to realize why he shouldn´t


    I saw that face everywhere in the months leading up to '99, so I get the idea. Thing is, it's a sloppy idea. He's just cool looking, but other than that, he was a useless character. He doesn't say anything in the entire movie, doesn't really do anything, and then dies in a rather anti-climactic fashion in the the anti-climactic ending to TPM. With those reasons, and many many others, I realized Dooku should have been there since he would at least survive through until EIII and actually do two movies' worth of villainy.

    BTW: Dooku´s death will probably be the first plot point in EpIII? Where did you get that idea? I can bet 45 billion US dollars that he will die during the second half of the movie.


    Well, the second plot point happens roughly in the last twenty five minutes of the movie, leading to the descending action and eventually resolution, which will probably be Anakin's defeat by Obi-wan Kenobi. So, to properly build up to that point, the events must be paced within the hour after the first plot point. So that's why I'm thinking Dooku dies within the first thirty to fourty five minutes, and that's why it's terrible that we didn't see him at all in the first film.

    He does have enough screentime!


    Yeah, so far it's been less than an hour out of four and a half. Imagine of Vader were introduced in the last half of ESB.
  11. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I can´t imagine that, because he is extremely important in the plot of ANH.
    I don´t think the death of Dooku and the defeat of Anakin will be so vastly separated. More likely, Anakin will meet Obi-Wan soon after he kills Dooku(no spoiler, just assumption). You don´t expect Anakin to be evil for more than half the movie, do you?
  12. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    I can´t imagine that, because he is extremely important in the plot of ANH.


    Exactly, his characterization was done properly. You see him introduced in AHN, come back in ESB, and finally have his moment of fate in ROTJ. By then, you have three movies' worth of emotion invested into the character and care about what happens to him.

    That is where the deal with Dooku fails. We were given a cool-looking, but useless, villain that really accomplishes nothing and then dies. Nothing more can be done with that character. That's why people after TPM wanted him back, he was cool and wanted to see him actually do something. Instead, we're introduced to another villain late into Episode II, and HE isn't really developed. And by the time he starts to actually DO something, the movie's over.

    I don´t think the death of Dooku and the defeat of Anakin will be so vastly separated. More likely, Anakin will meet Obi-Wan soon after he kills Dooku(no spoiler, just assumption). You don´t expect Anakin to be evil for more than half the movie, do you?


    Well, I doubt the fall of Anakin will be the only thing going on. It has to mix in well with the other events of the movie, and in Lucas' style of direction and writing, he tends to sandwich the inner details with exciting conflict. The exciting stuff happens at the beginning and end, and wedges the other stuff in between. So, the way I see it, the most exciting aspects of the movie are going to be the climax of the Clone War/Anakin's fall and the duel with Obi-wan. Anakin may probably turn in a confrontation with Dooku, which might even be during the last battle of the Clone War at the end of the first plot act, thus ushering a new direction for the movie to take so it can build up to the climax, and then resolution.
  13. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    It worked before for the OT itself. How is it any different now?

    Well now we have the beginning of the saga, and the run up to the OT.
    To present the Emperor as someone not changing apprentices in the PT would be inconsistent with the OT.

    Its plain to me that in TPM already, Palpatine has his eye on Anakin as a potential apprentice. And to him Dooku is just a filler, a stop gap till he gets the real apprentice he wants.

    We have see the beginnings of the Sith nature and how that translates to the OT.

    You know Loco, you're just bashing for the sake of it.
  14. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    That is where the deal with Dooku fails. We were given a cool-looking, but useless, villain that really accomplishes nothing and then dies. Nothing more can be done with that character. That's why people after TPM wanted him back, he was cool and wanted to see him actually do something. Instead, we're introduced to another villain late into Episode II, and HE isn't really developed. And by the time he starts to actually DO something, the movie's over.

    Oh come on! You're again bashing for the sake of it!

    Darth Maul's purpose is pretty simple. And to be honest do you really see him as a someone charismatic enough to lead a Separatist movement?
    Because I certainly can't.
    Maul accomplishes some important things in TPM:
    a) The re-emergence of the Sith to the Jedi. Before he attacks QGJ on Tatooine, the Jedi thought they'd killed off their sworn enemy a millennia ago.
    b) He introduced us to why the Sith were hateful to the Jedi, wanting revenge on what I said in a).
    c) He importantly kills off a key character, Qui-Gon Jinn, and this enables and sets up the Master-Padawan relationship of Obi-Wan and Anakin.

    And he actually did something! He took on 2 Jedi Knights! And nearly beat them both, if it weren't for his arrogance!


    And Dooku's character is quite well fleshed out IMHO.
    Firstly he's an Ex-Jedi turned Separatist leader. He's disillusioned with teh Republic and the Jedi, both because the former is corrupt and the latter serves the corrupt former.
    He embodies the ambiguities the Jedi have to face with the Republic, eg, corruption.
    Going back to the Separatist Leader bit, he has created a coalition (hey like Mr. "I like War" Bush!) which will help start the Clone Wars which will destroy the Jedi and the Galaxy enough for Palpatine to implement his Empire.
    Plus he's a damn Sith Lord to boot, answering the question of who filled the boots of Darth Maul!

    Its there if you want to see it, but it seems again Loco, you just dont want to look.
  15. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Loco: Anakin´s fall will most likely have to do with Dooku´s death, yes, but it will also be strongly connected to his clash with Kenobi. That fight will not be a separate plot. It is the last straw, that which makes him hate the Jedi and it is his final step into the dark side.

    The end of the clone war will probably be at the beginning of EpIII, but I would be very surprised if a duel was to take place during that sequence.
    Dooku will have a huge role in this film, right from the beginning, I assure you!
  16. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
  17. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Well now we have the beginning of the saga, and the run up to the OT. To present the Emperor as someone not changing apprentices in the PT would be inconsistent with the OT.


    But he indeed would be changing apprentices in the PT; when Anakin turns to the Dark Side, it would mean the previous apprentice was murdered for his place at the Emperor's side.

    Its plain to me that in TPM already, Palpatine has his eye on Anakin as a potential apprentice. And to him Dooku is just a filler, a stop gap till he gets the real apprentice he wants.


    Exactly, and that is why Maul was so unnecessary. We see that the Emperor is a fickle man; he sees something new, he wants that and is no longer content with what he has. He had Vader, an amazing warrior, efficient and powerful in the Force; but he saw the potential in Luke, and wanted the new model in apprentices. He was ready to cast his "old friend" to the side for his son.

    We have see the beginnings of the Sith nature and how that translates to the OT.


    "Sith" is a PT invention that was never mentioned in any of the original movies, it was in drafts dating back to before the Classic Trilogy ('Black Knights of the Sith'), but was scrapped as something not needed, and still isn't. By ROTJ, the dueling of Skywalker and Vader was understood as the ruthless and cruel nature of the Emperor, it was in his nature to gain pleasure from watching people ficht and kill each other. There was no Sith concept introduced at the time, it was understood as an invention of the character himself as means of giving a prize to the one he sees worthy. "Sith" is a concept that is not needed as it is never mentioned or even refered to ever again.

    You know Loco, you're just bashing for the sake of it.


    I call it "criticism," myself. ;)
  18. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    The PT will show Sidious not caring about his apprentices when Dooku bites it and Anakin takes his place.

    Other than that, all the hyping of Maul was a pointless waste.

    Better to have either all Maul until Anakin or all Dooku until Anakin.

    Lucas is such a shoddy writer at times it's amazing.
  19. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
  20. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    So it´s all a matter of taste then!
    You are wrong at one point though, Loco: Darth Vader was referred to as "Dark Lord of the Sith" both in the script and novelization of ANH, so it was most definitely NOT a concept he scrapped, even though the word "Sith" was never uttered by any character in the films.
  21. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Since it's the films we're talking about, that's what matters. It's never mentioned in the films because it was an idea from the drafts that was definately scrapped, otherwise something would have been done with it in the original films.
  22. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    No, it wasn´t scrapped, or else it wouldn´t have been in the description of Vader that is in the shooting script.
    The story didn´t require any mentioning of the Sith order, simple as that!
  23. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    I know it was in the script, unfortunately, the script itself wasn't projected onto the screen. If the Sith were to have had anything to do with the Classic Trilogy, there would have been more mention about it between Vader and the Emperor, or during the duel between Vader and Luke before the Emperor. But it wasn't. It was an un-used idea in the Classic Trilogy, Lucas may have had it in mind, but it was never seen on screen. Hence, it was scrapped.
  24. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    I think this brings us into a "levels of canon" debate.

    Need that we do not. :p



    Anyway, I don't know about you, but George Lucas lied to ME. He said that the night we shared was special and that he'd call me...

    He still hasn't called... :(

    George... where are you?... Little Georgie Junior keeps asking where his daddy is... what'm I gonna tell him? :_|



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  25. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    That's just like George, love'm and leave'm.
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