Did George Lucas Lie To Us?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by TheAnointedOne, Jun 20, 2003.

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  1. LucasCop Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 2
    So let me get this straight......

    When the OT was released, you were fine with the fact that the antagonists were just some bad dudes, who like being bad, and who are enslaved by the Dark Side of the Force. You needed no further explanation.

    Now when the mere mention of a Sith Order is slapped onto their foreheads, an order that was exterminated over a millenium ago that acts as the means through which they envelop themselves within the Dark Side of the Force, you now have a problem? Yet you are left with this destitution despite the fact that any fan of the OT could have picked up any Star Wars memorabilia throughout the years (the Star Wars Soundtrack album released in 1977, of all things, for example) and found that Darth Vader was actually a Dark Lord of the Sith.

    It's seems you happen to be in a miniscule minority there, pal.......Sorry.....I can't help you out.....I guess some people will always have something to complain about......
  2. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    So let me get this straight......

    When the OT was released, you were fine with the fact that the antagonists were just some bad dudes, who like being bad, and who are enslaved by the Dark Side of the Force. You needed no further explanation.
    Now when the mere mention of a Sith Order is slapped onto their foreheads, an order that was exterminated over a millenium ago that acts as the means through which they envelop themselves within the Dark Side of the Force, you now have a problem? Yet you are left with this destitution despite the fact that any fan of the OT could have picked up any Star Wars memorabilia throughout the years (the Star Wars Soundtrack album released in 1977, of all things, for example) and found that Darth Vader was actually a Dark Lord of the Sith.



    The difference between this time and the Classic Trilogy is something like that was novel (while still amaturish) because it had the whole "starting in the middle" approach to the story. That cut the whole "well, they're bad" approach some slack. One could say that they were bad because of the Dark Side of the Force and leave it at that since there was no real implication of organization.

    Now, the aspect of the Sith was introduced, the notion of organization has been introduced and nothing has been done with it. And since this is the introduction, the "starting in the middle" excuse can't really come in to save it as it would have provided some sort of foundation. But this wasn't done in TPM. Instead, we're treated to this notion and Lucas simply abandons it.

    It's seems you happen to be in a miniscule minority there, pal.......Sorry.....I can't help you out.....


    That's alright, nobody asked you for help anyway. :p
  3. LucasCop Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 2
    and Lucas simply abandons it.

    We're obviously not watching the same films here.........

    Direct from Lucas' mouth:
    "At one point, when Obi-Wan kills Darth Maul, he just fell into the pit. I looked at it and thought this isn't going to work because, if people like him enough, they are going to want him to come back and they're going to assume somehow he gets out of it. So I had to cut him in half to say this guy's gone, he's history, he ain't coming back. I'll come up with another apprentice. The whole issue of having apprentices, poor Darth Sidious trying to replenish his apprentice supply, is one of the main plot points."
    - Empire Magazine 07/99
  4. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    And that was a foolish decision on Lucas' part. Maul wasn't necessary at all, and to show that he was able to kill him and not have to worry about it proves it. It was a neat gimmick, but the narrative aspect suffered greatly as the main villain of the first film was killed off. Anakin's characterization as a hero is dependent on a villain, that was why a constant villainous presence was needed so both Anakin and the villain could develop and grow and be prime for their confrontation.
  5. LucasCop Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 2
    that was why a constant villainous presence was needed so both Anakin and the villain could develop and grow and be prime for their confrontation.

    Yep....just like how Lucas is setting up Anakin for his tragic fall and his immersion in the Dark Side when presented with the opportunity by the phantom menace at the conclusion of the three-part tragedy.

    The Dark Side clouds everything......

    You act more and more like a pest on these boards. Perhaps you are the living embodiment of the Sith, and I never realized it! *snicker* I'm out....

  6. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Yep....just like how Lucas is setting up Anakin for his tragic fall and his immersion in the Dark Side when presented with the opportunity by the phantom menace at the conclusion of the three-part tragedy.


    Which he did a poor job of developing, as we have one movie's worth of emotion invested into both Dooku and Anakin (he had to be reintroduced completely for AOTC). That was a pretty bad move on Lucas' part. That would be like Luke getting killed during the Death Star run and Han becoming the hero, then have Vader introduced during the bounty hunter scene aboard the Executor in ESB. That's what Lucas has done here.

    You act more and more like a pest on these boards. Perhaps you are the living embodiment of the Sith, and I never realized it! *snicker* I'm out....


    Notice how people who can't argue using logic end up resorting to personal attacks? Shame on you, Cop. Shame, shame.
  7. LucasCop Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 2
    You have no idea if Dooku will be instrumental to Anakin's turn. Where do you get that information?

    The "constant villainous presence" to which you referred to is actually the phantom menace, Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. The title of the first movie clearly indicates the antagonist that the heroes are required to confront. This argument is just proof that the audience was completely caught off guard as to Lucas' plot structure of the PT and the entire Star Wars saga, in general.

    Again.......the fact that you may have come up with an approach to telling the prequels does not make it the "right" way or even a "better" way. You are tarnished by the fact that you have already seen the climax, and you demand that the creator fill in ALL of the spaces in the backstory to satisfy your expectations. If that goal is not accomplished, then the only rationale you can come up with, as evident by your posts throughout this thread, seems to be Lucas' "inability" to properly tell a story. Until you produce a story of your own, share it with us, and reveal a superior narration, I cannot take you seriously. That's the reason why I snicker.

    Re-read this enlightening discussion when you have the opportunity. I have no desire to regurgitate it all.

    Now I'm really out.....
  8. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    This whole "blame the audience" deal is areally lame way of taking responsibility off of Lucas and his sloppy writing.

    Actually, it's a way of pointing out that these problems seem to inexplicably exist for only a select few while the rest of us have no problem with the way the story is presented. But I suppose if you try hard enough to lump your opinion onto "the audience," sooner or later one or two people are bound to believe you. Maybe.
  9. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    You have no idea if Dooku will be instrumental to Anakin's turn. Where do you get that information?


    Then what purpose does Dooku serve? If not to die at Anakin's hand as a means of turning fully to the Dark Side and devoting his loyalty to Palpatine, then what? Cause a breach in the Galaxy? Done.

    The "constant villainous presence" to which you referred to is actually the phantom menace, Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. The title of the first movie clearly indicates the antagonist that the heroes are required to confront. This argument is just proof that the audience was completely caught off guard as to Lucas' plot structure of the PT and the entire Star Wars saga, in general.


    "The puppet master is the main villain." That's lame, that's like saying Hitler was the villain in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

    Again.......the fact that you may have come up with an approach to telling the prequels does not make it the "right" way or even the "better" way. You are tarnished by the fact that you have already seen the climax, and you demand that the creator fill in ALL of the spaces in the backstory to satisfy your desires.


    Again with the "tarnished" approach? That means nothing. We know the climax, yes, but that would have been something that would have served in Lucas' favor if he had more of a plan outlined, rather than simply winging it by the seat of his pants.

    If that goal is not accomplished, then the only rationale you can come up with, as evident by your posts throughout this thread, seems to be Lucas' "inability" to properly tell a story.


    Well, whose responsibility is it then? The writer? The director? The creator? Oh, wait a minute...

    Until you produce a story of your own, share it with us, and reveal a superior narration, I cannot take you seriously. That's the reason why I snicker.


    To say, "Until you make a movie of your own, I won't listen to you," you might as well log out of the message board and never return, because there are about 50,000 people that have not created Star Wars caliber material. Yourself included. So until you create something that is watchable, I won't bother taking you seriously, as you can't possibly relate with Lucas enough to defend him.
  10. LucasCop Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 2
    simply winging it by the seat of his pants

    As opposed to someone like you who would necessarily be doing the same thing.

    How childish.

    [face_plain]
  11. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
  12. LucasCop Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 2
    Nope.....just a manifestation of the obvious.
  13. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    More like resorting to a lame tactic when the indefensible is being defended.
  14. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    I think you are really just looking for a different type of movie. In the prequels, the villian isn't right in your face. So? It's not the Original Trilogy, version 2. It has a different set of villians and a different style of characterizing them. I like the puppet master villian way more than a "I'm going to kill you!" type of villian.

    Cometgreen
  15. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    I like the "Puppet Master" villain aspect too, but there needs to be an "In Your Face" Villain to generate conflict between himself and the hero. Conflict makes for interesting character development on all counts. The "In Your Face" villain accentuates the "Puppet Master," while making the hero be heroic as a contrast. Whatever it was that Lucas was planning, the conflict generated by a long-term villain would have given the story the impact it needed. Don't get me wrong, the idea was impressive, it had amazing potential, but with weak characterization the idea falls flat. It doesn't live up to its potential.

    EDIT: See? Cometgreen knows how to discuss matters. He's a good guy that doesn't resort to insults or attacks, and where we can disagree gracefully.
  16. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    "See? Cometgreen knows how to discuss matters. He's a good guy that doesn't resort to insults or attacks, and where we can disagree gracefully."

    Take that back! You little *expletive deleted* *expletive deleted* *expletive deleted*, son of a *expletive deleted* *expletive deleted*! ;)

    I agree that having one muscle villian throughout the PT would have been nice, as I do think the end duel of AOTC needed more emotion to be impactful, but I still loved Maul and found Dooku to be a great character (probably solely because of Christopher Lee). But if there is one thing that everyone I know has said about TPM, it's that Maul wasn't used to his full potential. It would have been nice to have him say more lines, but I do like his quiet, bad ass attitude. And nothing beats the opening of the duel in TPM.

    Damn, I just can't make up my mind.

    Cometgreen
  17. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Take that back! You little *expletive deleted* *expletive deleted* *expletive deleted*, son of a *expletive deleted* *expletive deleted*!


    You big bully! :_| :p

    I agree that having one muscle villian throughout the PT would have been nice, as I do think the end duel of AOTC needed more emotion to be impactful, but I still loved Maul and found Dooku to be a great character (probably solely because of Christopher Lee). But if there is one thing that everyone I know has said about TPM, it's that Maul wasn't used to his full potential. It would have been nice to have him say more lines, but I do like his quiet, bad ass attitude. And nothing beats the opening of the duel in TPM.

    Damn, I just can't make up my mind.


    Yeah, I don't mind that Maul didn't say much; it was an interesting approach, though I would have liked to have seen him in the rest of the PT doing what he does. There was indeed untapped potential that was thrown away (more like cut in half and thrown away :p ); just as we were getting to know him, he gets killed.

    The same with Dooku, just as we're getting to know him, AOTC ends. THAT's my problem, the Sith Order could have been fleshed out through its characters, but since they don't stick around long enough for us to get to know them, the idea of the Sith doesn't grow.
  18. Jedi-Monkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2002
    star 4
    That response was unnecessary as well.

    Well, yeah? That was the whole point I was making. Thanks for helping out. ;)

    I'm sorry, but no. There is a difference between allowing some things to go unsaid, and it's another to just plain not develop it at all. Smaller details, like Maul's species or whatever, can go unsaid. THAT adds mystery to his character as it affects only him and it allows us to ponder his origins, it's another to not develop the order of the Sith, as it acts a motive for his and future characters in the movies. The Sith Order is what drives Maul, Palpatine, Vader, and even Dooku to do what they do; it's their motivation for their actions in these movies. The Sith is an aspect of the Force, like they Jedi, they represent the Dark Side of the Force and its users. It's something that affects the characters of the Prequels, and supposedly, the Classic Trilogy. It's one of the aspects that makes them think the way they do. To introduce this is to introduce a new level of depth the characters, and to leave it empty creates a void in characters that were doing just fine.

    I do have one question about this. If none of this is developed in the movies, how do you know it? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, (at least not this time, 8-}) I'm simply wondering if the idea isn't developed, how do you know that's what it was meant to be? Maybe all it ever was supposed to be was a name. I'm not saying that's the case, but if it's not developed, then how do we know what you have hypothesized is accurate?

    Actually, I have two questions. How do you know this won't all be addressed in the next chapter of the story, and a few of you are getting all bent out of shape over nothing? Just a thought.

    This whole "blame the audience" deal is areally lame way of taking responsibility off of Lucas and his sloppy writing. There are some things that can be left mysterious, but there are other things that need to be fleshed out and made to their fullest potential.

    Ah, but like it or not, not everything that some people think should be fleshed uot actually needs to be fleshed out. The entire series is chock-full of ideas that have holes in them for the viewer to fill in. It is sort of interactive that way, which is why I think the fan fiction has flourished over the years. And to an extent, why there are so many EU novels and stories, and why most of them sell pretty decently.

    The difference between this time and the Classic Trilogy is something like that was novel (while still amaturish) because it had the whole "starting in the middle" approach to the story. That cut the whole "well, they're bad" approach some slack. One could say that they were bad because of the Dark Side of the Force and leave it at that since there was no real implication of organization.

    Actually, despite what Uncle George might often claim, and even though he did have a loose backstory scribled on a cocktail napkin somewhere, it wasn't really starting in the middle originally. At least not as far as we the viewers knew. There was no "EPISODE IV" when it was first released. That wasn't added until '79, two years later. It was just Star Wars at first, and Vader was the Dark Lord of the Sith before it became the middle of the story.

    Now, the aspect of the Sith was introduced, the notion of organization has been introduced and nothing has been done with it. And since this is the introduction, the "starting in the middle" excuse can't really come in to save it as it would have provided some sort of foundation. But this wasn't done in TPM. Instead, we're treated to this notion and Lucas simply abandons it.

    Once again, you do not know that it has been abandoned. All you really know is it hasn't been done the way you think it should have been done. And the starting in the middle thing didn't hold water back in '77 either, as I explained above, but no one had a problem with it then.

    And that was a foolish decision on Lucas' part. Maul wasn't necessary at all, and to show that he was able to kill
  19. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    (Adali-Kiri applauds Jedi-Monkey for the most sensible and un-ignorant post in this thread.)
  20. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Very well said Jedi Monkey. :)

  21. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    IMO it would have been great to have a constant villain, the "in your face" one throughout, yet the audience also sees a master we see only via hologram in 1 & 2.

    In the second film, there's this person named Tyrannus that turns out to be Dooku. Obi-Wan believes he is the second sith, as do we. We think Dooku is the one we saw in those holograms earlier. We think we now know the shocking truth: Dooku is a Sith.

    In the third film, OB1 discovers that Dooku, in fact, is not a sith but a Jedi who was telling him the truth about the sith. He actually wants to save the Jedi by "getting out". He knows it will die from within and by treachery.

    Obi-Wan leaves the order and joins Dooku to confront Maul. Anakin feels betrayed by Obi-Wan and doesn't believe Dooku. Palpatine consoles Anakin with his "loss" and Obi-wan's "betrayal".
    We, the audience, are led to believe Dooku could still be the phantom menace and are concerned for Obi-Wan. Is Dooku leading him into a trap?

    Obi-Wan and Dooku confront Maul. Dooku proves himself a good guy after all. Dooku dies. Maul escapes. Now, who is the master?
    The audience is now wondering, man we thought we had it figured out, but no it's not Dooku after all.

    Obi-Wan looks into it.

    Later, Obi-Wan confronts Siddy, who reveals his true identity: Palpatine. He was the original person in the hologram from the beginning.

    Obi-wan attempts to stop him.

    Anakin intervenes and THE DUEL begins.
  22. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    Lucas finished the E3 script a full two days earlier in relation to the production schedule than he did the AOTC script.

    Good for you, George.

    Now do yourself a favor and have someone check off a list of loose ends to fill up on.



    Yes, kids, that's my biggest fear for E3.

    I'm not concerned about the dialogue -- the only film that I didn't enjoy the dialogue in much was AOTC, and that was lovey-dovey bits, of which there will be less.

    I'm not concerned about the story -- SW has yet to let me down in that area.

    I'm not concerned about the visuals, in cinematography or effects -- they promise to be breathtaking.

    But for the love of God, explain midi-chlorians, virgin births and Sifo-Dyas and give Threepio a memory wipe so thorough that he squeals like a piggy.



    (Also, if you could spare fifteen minutes for a Salacious Crumb origins story, I'd appreciate it, but I'll understand if it can't happen.)



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  23. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    "But for the love of God, explain midi-chlorians, virgin births and Sifo-Dyas and give Threepio a memory wipe so thorough..."

    LOL. You'll get your wish with 3PO.

    You need an explanation of a virgin birth? Ummm.....she's a virgin....there was no father....she gave birth to him....she can't explain what happened. But, Qui-Gon DID EXPLAIN later in the JC.

    As for midichlorians....They are microscopic lifeforms residing in all living cells. They are NOT The Force, but rather are the conduits, the transmitter and receiver of it.

    Episode 3 has alot of story to tell. No time for midichlorians and virgin births. That's already been explained anyway.

    We will learn who either *posed* as Sifo-Dyas or who Sifo-Dyas really IS.
  24. TheAnointedOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2002
    star 2
    I'm in agreement with AdamBertocci on this one. I'm worried about the script being finished so closed to shooting time. And Chewie making an appearance in the film doesn't help.
  25. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    Lucas didn't lie, I believe the majority misinterpret this quote as to imply that we would see more than 3 apprentices throughout the PT.
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