ST Did Han not know about Anakin's redemption?

Good points.

I also think it's interesting to look at it from the perspective of the characters in the universe as well... IMO people like Leia, Ha, Lando, etc are much less likely to forgive Vader than the audience is

 

Which is why the bond between father and son is not so easily broken... It would have been the natural thing for Luke to just disown his old man, for all the things he did while as Darth Vader.

But no, Luke went all out to try and turn his dad back to the good side. Which he finally did, as a final act of redemption before passing away, something that only Luke himself will appreciate.

The rest of society will certainly continue to see Anakin as Darth Vader, the most terrifying villain in the galaxy, unfortunately. And find it difficult to forgive him for his sins, even if Luke convinces them of Anakin's redemption.


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I think he just means too much Vader and not enough Anakin. Basically, he sees Ben as too far gone.

 

The equivalent of Vader's redemption in the real world would be if Hitler's right hand man had a son who fought him and later died killing Hitler. Would that story really move anyone else who was directly impacted by Hitler and his right hand man to think, "I guess he wasn't too bad. I forgive him." Maybe some would but not all.

Luke may have forgiven him. The Light side of the Force may have forgiven him but that doesn't mean all would have who heard what happened. Vader's redemption is very much in line with the Catholic Church's believe that God will forgive if you repent for your sins and that only God can judge afterward. Faithful people here on Earth have been known to forgive murderers who killed own their family members. Han never struck me as one of those types.

There's also the thinking that Vader is the evil aspect of Anakin and that neither Anakin as a child, nor Anakin as a dying old man were Vader. So, in that respect it's fair to say he has too much Vader in him.

 

Vader chased Han and Leia around for most of ESB, convinced Han's friend to betray him (reluctantly and under duress, but still), tortured him and Leia in order to lure his friend Luke into a trap, dunked him in Carbonite, and then let Boba Fett take him to Jabba the Hutt (the gangster that wanted Han dead).

Yeah, I can buy that Han might NOT buy the whole "redemption" thing, which amounted to one good deed before dying. Or he does, but is making a distinction between Anakin's two halves. The "good" Anakin Skywalker, and the "evil" Darth Vader.

I doubt that Luke didn't tell him btw.

 

Characters tend to address Vader/Anakin as 2 separate people. Just like I would assume any sith would be. There was such a stark contrast between the jedi general analin fighting for the right, versus the dominatinh, evil vader.

Han wouldve been fully aware of exactly what happened on the death star ii. Im sure luke told both he and leia what went down, how he made it out against all odds. If not immediately he wouldve told them afte han n leia were an item. Or after bens birth.

 

Maybe Force Ghost Anakin turned up and Han and Leia's wedding and started his speech with "Hey Han, remember that time on Cloud City when I didn't have any questions...."

 

Vader was an evil monster. That probably what he meant. Ben has too much of that evil monster in him.

 

Its interesting to consider what they actually mean by to much of Vader in him. In ANH Luke had to much of his father in him but it was used as more of a positive and suggested a sense of adventure etc.

I assume in TFA its Ren wanting power and control.

Thankfully they didn't reuse the father line with grandfather.

 

Thanks for these good thoughts, folks! Meditate on this, I will.


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I think I would have re-written that line because it contains too much unintentional contradictory irony. We can figure out what Han meant, but we have to think through it. Then again, it could have been an intentional way of expressing Han and even Leia's view toward Vader--THEY never got over his being evil.

Regarding the redemption of Anakin/Vader--that's a huge topic that's beyond the scope of this thread. There's a few ways to look at it 1) Killing the Emperor actually saved the lives of potentially millions of people by ending his evil reign. If he hadn't, certainly Luke would have died and the galaxy would have continued under the Emperor's iron fist (assuming the Empire won the battle of Endor). And the second Death Star would be floating around blowing up more planets.

2) from a religious point of view, no one is beyond redemption. But just "who needs redemption" is the issue---is it everyone, or just the really bad people? The Bible teaches that at our core, we are all just as evil as Darth Vader, even if we're not actually killing people (we might want to!). And that everyone needs forgiveness through Christ and can obtain it without doing good things to earn it.

 

One point to remember is that Luke, Han, Leia, they only ever knew of Vader, as Vader. We saw tje PT. We saw the little, innocent kid who gradually turned into the figurehead of evil. But all they know is that he was a jedi, then turned bad. So it would be a lot harder for characters in universe to forgive or even want to forgive.

 

5. None of the above.

I could easily see Han hearing about Anakin's redemption, and just not buying it. Han doesn't strike me as the kind of character who thinks you can commit decades worth of horrendous atrocities and then just get redeemed at the last minute. He didn't even believe his own son could come back.

Han is a skeptic. You can't suppose he automatically accepts what's told just because the true believers do.

 

Good question and I think its a bit of a plothole. So I lean towards #4, but they didn't forget it - they chose not to care for it or highlight it because maybe its going to be the same story for Kylo and they don't want to remind newbies of what came before. We will know for sure after Ep9.

 

Initially I thought Han said, "There's too much anger in him", but when I heard "Vader" on a subsequent viewing, I felt it was out of place because I don't see Han as someone who'd view Anakin and Vader as two different people ala Obi-Wan and Luke.

 

Han doesn't have much reason to use the name "Anakin" because he never knew Vader by that name, nor knew the man he used to be. He only knows Vader as the guy that cut off Luke's hand, tortured Han, froze him in carbonite, destroyed Leia's home world, killed Obi-Wan, etc.

Killing Palpatine doesn't undo that. It doesn't undo the evil done. Vader and Anakin are the same person, despite Obi-Wan's pov spiel. I don't think Han has any reason to distinguish Vader from Anakin. They are all one person, and he rightly sees Vader as evil.

 

I don't see how he feels that way. He decided he can try save his son and that it was really about Snoke. Obviously he does try to save his son and Luke the son tried to and succeeded in saving the father so Han is trying the same.

 

I think it's different if it's your kid that you raised and whom you saw make mistakes, vs some guy that you only ever knew to be evil.

 

And also it's played up like Han wasn't sure that Ben could be redeemed. He was mostly doing it for Leia's sake. It's kind of like everyone telling Luke that Vader was beyond redemption, but Luke not believing it actually. Leia still believed in her son, only this time it didn't work out so well.

 

I think he means Ben has some of the same weaknesses that led Anakin to evil. Ambition, arrogance (and insecurity), and desire for knowledge and power were big parts of both character's personalities. Even though Vader was redeemed, that doesn't mean those weakness didn't matter. Ben is very much like his grandfather, which may be why he is so drawn to his memory and models himself after him, not understanding the hard cost or the truth of what Anakin became (he obviously sees Anakin's redemption as a failure to finish what he started).

 

Han may have known about Vader, but whereas Luke redeemed Vader, he failed with Ben. As it stands, there was apparently no one left to make the attempt... which would explain why Han tried it one more time.

 

Han knows that Vader is Luke and Leia's father and that he chose to become evil. What Han is referring to about too much Vader is much like what Obi-wan told Luke, which was that Vader had betrayed and murdered Anakin. To him, Han believes that the part of Ben that was a good kid has been replaced by Kylo, much like Vader had consumed Anakin. There's too much of the anger and hate in Ben, that was in Anakin. He just doesn't believe that Ben is still in there wanting to come back.

 

I'm sure Han has heard the whole story of Anakin by now. This is a fairly inane concern. Quite obviously, Han knows Ben is obsessed with Vader (not Anakin-Vader) and by trying to emulate him, he's taken on the characteristics of Vader, (not Anakin) hence he has too much "Vader" in him. I honestly don't think there's any more to it than that.

 

Stop cutting into our deep analysis that way!

How much does Snoke model him after Vader as opposed to it coming more naturally. Palpatine shaped Anakin in many ways but the end result still was from Anakin himself while Ben seems to be specifically modeled on how Vader turned out.