PT Did Hayden do a good job as Anakin?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by BDOT, Oct 25, 2012.

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  1. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    Piettshat: I think it was a little bit underacted to a degree, I just expected the line "this is a happy moment, the happiest moment of my life" to be a little less stoic, it wasn't awful, it just wasn't how I expected the usual expressive Anakin (who can't always control his emotions) to be a little more joyous, I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I think the response he gave to be more of an Obi-Wan response, not the expressive Anakin that we see.
    Last edited by Sistros, Nov 24, 2012
  2. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    @Sistros

    I can see that. I suppose for me it worked because they were out in public, where they had to be a little more careful. That, and Anakin seemed to be trying to reassure Padmé (who looked so concerned), so I felt the softness and gentle tenderness to his voice was more appropriate, but you do bring up a good point.
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  3. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I think arguing "likability" is a bit pointless, as mileage is going to vary. People who disliked Anakin's character aren't going to be persuaded to like it by anything anyone says here, and vice versa.

    That said, I wasn't really expecting Anakin to be someone I would be friends with, as people I choose for friends, aren't going to turn into the ***hole that Darth Vader was in ANH and ESB. I saw him as a kid--yes, a whiny kid in AOTC--but I was still able to sympathize with him because as @PiettsHat said, I was able to relate to his fears. Because I understand what it's like to be afraid of loss (and haven't turned into Darth Vader), I also see a lot of "what might have been" in Anakin's story. I think his fall is due to a lot of complex factors that can't be summed up in a sound bite (as some have tried to do--"Anakin fell because he wouldn't follow Jedi rules," etc.) and I find myself asking, what if just one of those factors had been different? How would Anakin's story have been different?

    And that is what is tragic to me. And that's part of what makes the "likability" argument moot, because if he were a mature, easygoing, level-headed person, he would have never turned into Darth Vader in the first place, and his turning into Darth Vader is the point of the story. He would have been able to handle the challenges that were given him without being so easily duped by Palpatine into choosing the Dark Side.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Nov 24, 2012
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  4. Cantina Bassist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    But it's not moot. I've compared the prequels to a shaggy dog joke. You get to the end of this long story & its effect is basically "so what?". We have no one to root for & without an emotional investment the whole story is superfluous.
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  5. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    "PiettsHat said:

    I can see that. I suppose for me it worked because they were out in public, where they had to be a little more careful. That, and Anakin seemed to be trying to reassure Padmé (who looked so concerned), so I felt the softness and gentle tenderness to his voice was more appropriate, but you do bring up a good point.

    ----

    you bring up good points also :)
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    The effect is "so what?" to you. I was emotionally invested in the story for reasons I've already explained, and since the "likability" argument is, again, subjective, there is not much point in my repeating why I rooted for Anakin and why I found his story tragic. I'm taking a wild guess here, but I'm thinking that if Anakin had been your definition of a "likable" character, he probably would have been too close to ANH's Vader the ***hole and I would have found him utterly unlikable and unsympathetic. Feel free to correct me if I'm off-base.

    And again--a mature, easygoing, level-headed person was not going to turn to the Dark Side. As much as I loved the throne room scene in ROTJ, one part I found missing was the suspense we were supposed to feel about whether Luke was going to turn. It never once occurred to me that Luke would turn. Among other things, he was far more mature than his father was at that age.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Nov 24, 2012
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  7. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Well, during the Council scene, and then again after the Council scene with Kenobi.

    And then during his "I feel lost" convo with Padme. Lots of it there.

    Just before Palpatine reveals himself Anakin is whining about the Council.

    "It's not the Jedi way!....what have I done."

    Of course the single tear.

    And basically the entire time on Mustafar.

    And his final lines in the movie, in his suit.

    Uh, what?

    You mean when he raises his voice asking her to wait for him when she runs off on that speeder bike?

    How does anything Anakin did in ROTS come off as achieving greatness?

    He failed miserably at his one goal, protecting Padme. He gets himself pwned by Kenobi and ends up on fire and half a man. And he lost his children.

    Really, everything he wants he has taken away from him. That dream about ruling the galaxy? Never happens.

    His status in the Empire comes off as quite hollow when he spends the next 20 years on bended knee, crying in his life support suit over the wife he killed.

    Congrats on killing those kids, though. I mean, that was amazing.

    There are other ways to get to Darth Vader than what we saw. There's a lot of options when it comes to traits that lead to the dark side, it didn't have to be what we got.

    Since just about everyone knew Anakin was going to turn to the dark side, there wasn't much suspense there, either.

    At least in ROTJ the ending was up in the air, we knew Anakin was turning before the prequels even began.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Nov 24, 2012
  8. Cantina Bassist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    Vader in the OT isn't what I had in mind, no. Anakin in the PT is devoid of charisma, & that the main problem. IMO he needed to have a magnetic personality to keep three flicks about his "downfall" up in the air. That didn't happen & as a result the PT falls flat on its face.

    It may seem like there's no point to this discussion, but I find it interesting, if not enlightening. We aren't going to change each other's minds, but there's no harm in expressing our respective points of view. I respect your position & am interested in what you've had to say.
  9. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Good enough, I like hearing the "other side" as well, I always learn quite a bit.

    Coming back to this one as I want to address the "charisma" aspect.
  10. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I don't see how any of those (aside from the one I mentioned of course) is whining to be honest. Whining, for me, involves complaining while the "I feel lost" conversation was Anakin simply expressing statements he believed to be facts -- he didn't complain about Obi-Wan but simply expressed his belief that Obi-Wan and the Council didn't trust him (in a very resigned matter).

    Nor do I see it when he talks to Palpatine -- it's an expression his perspective. He doesn't say the Council is too critical or "unfair," he simply expresses his feelings of exclusion when prompted by Palpatine. Plus, at this juncture, Anakin realizes Palpatine knows something and is fishing for information.

    The quotes are more of exclamations than anything. Seriously, how is saying "it's not the Jedi way!" whining?

    Crying silently =/= whining

    On Mustafar, he certainly expresses his delusions of grandeur and makes accusations, but there's no whining. If we're including the novel (where Anakin yells about how he's sick of Obi-Wan's lectures), then I'll give you that, but I don't see it in the film.

    His final lines in the film are to ask if Padmé is okay and say that he sensed that she was alive (which was true enough when he left her). I'm not understanding how that constitutes as whining.

    Yeah. I guess it's just due to how incongruent it feels with the rest of his Jedi Master persona. It reminded me more of my little brother when he's whining at me to wait for him. The tone, in particular, was spot-on.

    Again, you're misinterpreting what I said, I said that the tragedy of Anakin was that he saw the only way he could be "great" (make a difference in the galaxy and take control of his own life) was by becoming Darth Vader. He was under the control of the Emperor, yes, and lost everything, but I think you'll agree that his actions did have a profound effect on the galaxy. He lost everything, but he also changed everything at the same time.

    For me, that's where the tragedy kicks in -- that Anakin sacrificed a potential life as a good man in part for a futile hope of "greatness". And as Churchill's quote indicates, that's not especially unique to him. You have to be a very strong person (such as Luke) in order to become great while retaining your goodness -- that's really what I interpret the quote to mean. In the end, it took seeing his son reject the Emperor, I think, for Anakin to be able to turn back.
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  11. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I feel lost. Waaaaaa. Obi-Wan and the Council don't trust me Waaaaa. I'm not the Jedi I should be. Waaaaa. I am such a sad Jedi.

    More and more I get the feeling that I am being excluded from the Council. I know there are things about the Force that they are not telling me. Waaaa the Council won't tell me all their secret Force powers.

    It's not the Jedi way, even though I just did the same thing! He must live! I need him! Don't you know everything is about me? Waaaaaaaaaaa *cuts off Windu's arm*. What have I done?

    *sheds single tear* Awwww is the Sith Lord crying about his murder spree?

    Obi-Wan is trying to turn you against me! Waaaaaaaaa, ME! I won't lose you the way I lost my mother! Waaaaaaa. I don't want to hear any more about Obi-Wan. Waaaaaaaa. The Jedi turned against me, don't you turn against me! Waaaaaa. You're with him. You brought him here to kill me! Waaaaaa! You turned her against me! Waaaaaaa. You will not take her from me! Waaaaaaa.

    I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over. Waaaaaaa. From my point of view, the Jedi are evil! Waaaaaaa.

    I hate you! Waaaaaa.

    She was alive! I felt it! WWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

    Seriously, it's all whining. The prequels would have been much better if Anakin Skywalker was mute.
  12. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Matt Lanter is the one true Anakin.

    /thread
  13. King Terak Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2012
    star 1
    Anakin wasn't brought up in a structured environment like most of the other Jedi, he was brought up as a slave and treated like nothing by everyone other than his Mother, whom his Master more or less told him to forget about, on top of all that he was also in his mid 20's. He probably interpreted the Jedi's structured teachings as a continuation of being taken advantage of, when all he wanted to do was prove he was more than a Slave.
    Last edited by King Terak, Nov 24, 2012
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  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    On charisma, I'm not sure why Anakin needed to be charismatic. Palpatine certainly was, but I don't know why it follows that Anakin needed to be either charismatic or charming to make his fall believable. I keep trying to picture a charismatic Anakin and it's not working; I can't imagine a charismatic person being willing to follow Palpatine that easily, or at all for that matter.

    Obviously mileage on what constitutes "whining," varies as well. I saw Anakin venting to Padme when he was frustrated (the "I'm not the Jedi I should be" scene) but if he was whining there, I'm not sure how one vents frustration without whining. The argument over whether he should have been frustrated in the first place, is different entirely.

    And yes, he was crying over the murder spree, which of course doesn't make it more acceptable, but I would have found laughing about it or pretending it didn't happen, far more disgusting reactions. I preferred seeing a "What have I done?" reaction.

    It absolutely was all about Anakin where Anakin was concerned, but I think that was kind of the point; would a selfless person turn to the Dark Side?

    @PiettsHat can respond to the point about whether ROTS held suspense, since she didn't know ahead of time that Anakin would turn. I was very interested in how he turned although I knew it would happen, and it delivered for me (albeit going too far in some places).
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  15. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    I agree 100%.
    I can only imagine how it feels when your mother dies in your own hands after you haven's seen her for many years. I can only imagine what it means to be owned by someone else.
    But I can relate to loss and how it is hard to accept loss. Who knows what I would do if I get the prospect of being able to stop death? It's easy to say "I wouldn't do anything because it's unnatural/because it's not without cost"...but if you really had the power, it's different, how far would you really go? That's one of the many interesting questions that Anakin's story and fall raise, imo.

    Again: so true.
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  16. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    @CT-867-5309

    For me, whether it constitutes whining or not really comes down to tone and circumstance. An individual can say the same thing but in different circumstances I could see it as whining or not.

    As an example, a kid that doesn't want to go to football practice might say to his mother, "I'm tired." In this case, that would be whining.

    But if someone says, "Hey, how are you feeling?" and you reply: "I'm tired." I wouldn't consider that whining.

    The "I feel lost" scene, for me, is an example of the latter because Anakin is responding to Padmé's discussions of how he's been stressed and her question of "what do you mean?" Furthermore, he doesn't really complain against the Council or criticize them. Instead, he moves to criticize himself by saying that he's not the Jedi he should be; he admits that he wants more but knows he shouldn't.

    Same with Palpatine's example -- here, Palpatine is clearly asking leading questions about the Council's treatment of Anakin. And although Anakin doesn't flat-out criticize them (by saying they are foolish for ignoring him, for instance), he does express his feelings of exclusion, which is clearly where Palpatine has been steering the conversation.

    I don't really see how the arrest scene is whining. Anakin is right -- it is against the Jedi Code. That he's desperate doesn't make it whining. Otherwise Luke's expression of "Blast it Biggs, where are you?" can be seen as such as well. Both characters are facing life and death situations and are desperate. They're not complaining.

    Honestly CT-867-5309, the problem with your argument is that you are taking normal lines of dialogue and simply adding "Waaa" to it, as though that proves anything. It can be done with any character's dialogue.
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  17. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Mature, easy-going, level-headed people can become evil..........
  18. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    It's not an "argument", it's what I hear just about every time Anakin opens his mouth. There is no "proving" that someone is whining.

    I saw that you mentioned Anakin's feelings several times, and I think that's the problem. By the time ROTS comes around, I really don't want to hear how Anakin feels anymore, I had more than enough of it in AOTC.

    I'm sure we've had this discussion before, so let's get it over with. I think he's whining, you don't.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Nov 25, 2012
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  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I think you nailed it here.

    For Anakin in both AOTC and ROTS, it is all about how Anakin feels at the time; he's ruled by his emotions and is unable or unwilling (or a combination of both) to set aside how he feels and realize that he isn't the most important person in the galaxy realize that actions have more far-reaching consequences than their effects on him or his loved ones at the moment.

    I had said that his turn can't be summed up in a sound bite, but this is as close as I get.

    But if you are over listening to Anakin talk about how Anakin feels and want him to, well, do something other than talk about how he feels, then it makes sense that everything that comes out of his mouth is going to sound like a whine.
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  20. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Yeah, I definitely had enough of Anakin talking about his feelings, or anything else.

    Padme mentions that the war is a failure to listen, though she's referring to the Republic abandoning negotiation and diving into the war, Anakin was done listening to anything that wasn't what he wanted to hear, and Kenobi was done listening to Anakin's whining. At several points Kenobi had a chance to go on a scolding lecture but didn't, instead cutting off the negativity with something positive to try to pacify Anakin. Mace cut Anakin off a few times, and Yoda skipped past Anakin's concerns about "someone" and went on a lecture, which Anakin immediately tuned out. The only ones who seem to be listening are Palpatine and Padme.
  21. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    That's actually can be said about the whole prequel trilogy. Qui-Gon seems to be the only Jedi who's attuned to the life around him. The rest either don't notice or even if they do, they don't do anything, whether it's slavery or corruption in the Senate. When the Sith and the Chosen One appear at the same time, you'd think the Jedi should get more proactive.

    In AOTC, Anakin tries to tell Obi-Wan about his dreams, Obi-Wan is not responsive. If he was, maybe Anakin would have come clean when he started having nightmares about Padme. Yoda knew Anakin had gone through something terrible on Tatooine and still didn't draw conclusions when asked for help.

    It's easy to see why people had problems with the prequels (aside from the typical complaints about acting and dialogue). The good guys are just too flawed for this type of movies (you know, fun adventures for kids). I mean, I understood why they did what they did but it's still frustrating, like watching a trainwreck.
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  22. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    The Anakin/Padme romance could have been handled better. In fact, it's probably about to be, in the upcoming Clone Wars arc that deals with it.

    That said, when I watched Sword Art Online, one of my reactions was that the relationship between Kirito and Asuna was in some ways closer to what I might have wanted the Anakin/Padme romance to have been.
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Nov 26, 2012
  23. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    The romance was too rushed (and some lines were just :oops:). In fact, all of AOTC was rushed due to the time gap between I and II. It might have worked better if Anakin and Padme had kept in touch over the years so there's less re-acquaintance to do. And Padme's family scene should have stayed it. I think it was well handled in ROTS (despite a couple of awkward lines).

    As for Clone Wars, I like their episodes, but they're already in love and married so the writers just need to develop it further.
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  24. King Terak Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2012
    star 1
    Fitting all this into a 2hr movie didn't help either.
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  25. Cantina Bassist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    Because it isn't a documentary on Idi Amin. It's an adventure story spanning six films, that is supposed to be somewhat tragic. It isn't all that tragic if the audience doesn't really like him, is it? As basic as storytelling gets, frankly.
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