Did individualism cause the dark side shift?

Thats where I have to say, and apologise for the arrogant tone, that you are wrong. The Sith are NOT guided by the force. They DO NOT listen to it in any way. The Sith use the force. They manipulate it. They "take it" for their own means.

The Jedi listen to the force and follow its will.

But its not about "their" purpose. Its about what effect they have on the galaxy. The Jedi seek to preserve peace, justice, democracy, harmony etc. The Sith look to gain power at any cost. Thats the cancer. The Sith are the cancer.

The Jedi had been doing this for 1000yrs. Isnt it a bit of a coincidence that the balance is broken once the sith come back out of the shadows?

I dont see the Jedi serving the republic and democracy as wrong. I just see it as dangerous when it became corrupt. But that wasnt their fault. It was the Sith's.

And we must remember that the dark side clouds the force. When the Sith re-emerge, the Jedi can't use, hear or see through the force as they were able to do before hand.

I really dont see that. they would have had the same problems if they were independant and simply "served the force". The Sith would still have clouded everything and sought to destroy the Jedi.

But what I dont get is this. If the Jedi didnt serve the republic and democracy then what exactly would they do?

Absolutely not. The force doesnt "let" anything happen. Free will reigns in star wars. Anakin let the Sith destroy the Jedi. Had he remained faithful then the Jedi would have lived.

Look, the Jedi were arrogant. That was a result of 1000yrs of non-opposed rule. It needed fixing in that sense. But I dont see any other issues. Imagine the Sith would have been destroyed in ROTS. The jedi knew of their arrogance by this stage and could have dealt with it. Qui Gon could still pass on his knowledge. Anakin would live happily ever after with Padme and the twins. All would be good.

Seriosuly - what is so different about the OT Jedi? What do they do differently?

Kind of...

Qui Gon, Obi Wan and Yoda lived on, from a CPOV...

When dont the PT jedi serve the force? You'd be hard pushed to find a jedi scene in the PT where they dont talki about trusting feelings, listening to the force, reaching out etc...

Im sorry, but thats hilarious. He wrote and filmed the things. He knows mor than anyone could ever know.

 

There is a difference in the OT Jedi but it is purely philosophical and it is not extreme. The Jedi of the OT (Obi-Wan and Yoda) are more focused on the moment and serving the Will of the Force than they are about the political institutions in place. And that all spawns from an unwillingness on everyone's part to accept the consequences of actions. the Jedi could have dealt with their arrogance, Anakin could have dealt with his selfish impulses. But, they did not. The result was the shift. The philospohical focus in the OT is very much about the individual facing the dark side temptations head on. The core of the "Jedi way" is still very much in place. But, the shift to the individual and his/her head-on challenge in the dark side is a slight but monumental shift.

However, IMO the Jedi purge was not a necessity. It was merely how events transpired and theose events allowed the chanegs in the Order to take place.

 

I was just messing with Lavo because of his/hers condescending reply to RamRed since there could have been a more tactful way to answer RamRed because RamRed is right. Discussing Star Wars is futile because there are no right or wrong answers; however, individualism taken to the extreme is selfishness. Individualism and nationalism taken to the extreme can both lead to bad times, and like you said there has to be a balance.

The Old Jedi Order was not balance. The Old Jedi Order oppressed the individual rights of the its own people. The Old Jedi Order was lost. That is why it was destroyed and the New Jedi Order is without the oppressive Jedi Code.

I really don't want to get into all this because like RamRed said discussing Star Wars is futile. Anakin did not go to the dark side because he was corrupt, it only appears that way. Anakin was guided to the dark side because the people of the galaxy were corrupt; however, a couple decades under the oppression of the Empire will solve that problem. I would go on and on but you won't believe me anyway.

 

I'm reminded of a John Stossel (ABC, of 20/20) special about "Greed", and why it is good for society. If someone is completely selfless, they will find themselves usually at the mercy of society. As opposed to fending for oneself, bettering oneself, etc. For example, is getting an education selfish? If my goals are to make myself better and get a good job and make money and buy a home and raise a family? One could argue those are selfish motivations. Yet they also make me a better, more productive member of society and in turn make society better. There is a balance. We cannot all be Mother Theresa. But we should be generous with our fortunes and not hoarde them.

So, in that context, acting in one's own self interest (whether we call that "selfish" is an argument) is good for society.

Look at it from a Darwinian point of view. Complete selflessness leads to a society of weak unskilled balls of dough; acting in one's own self interest leads to a society of fit and competitive individuals.

People acting in their own self interest have also moved society forward greatly. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, et al all acted in their own self interest (money and power) yet nobody would argue that the computer hasn't revolutionized the world and changed our lives. They didn't do it for charity, and there are some negative effects. But would you throw away the computer?

George Lucas acted in his own self interest whenever he made any of his films, yet he gave us this amazing universe to enjoy and explore.

 

He loved her as a possession, as a pet. Not true love. He would have left the Jedi order for her, he would have gone to Naboo to raise the baby/babies if he truly loved her. He wanted to OWN her.

 

Anakin didn't love Padme as a possession until he gave in to the Dark Side and he was thinking about leaving the Jedi Order until he had dreams of Padme's death.

 

But, I do agree with lavo that the growing, and later overwhelming sense of individualism (esp. with regard to Anakin) led to the darker emotions.

For Anakin, I think that it went both ways. Yes, it was his individual need to keep Padme alive and with him that led to his turn. But Anakin would have been able to deal or face with the possibility of losing someone, if he had learned to accept and deal with his strong sense of self. Anakin had spent too many years trying to belong, following his departure from Tatooine and Qui-Gon's death. Many of his actions stemmed from his need to be part of a community, whether it be the Jedi Order, being Palpatine's protegee or forming a family with Padme. He had never learned to accept ALL of his own inner nature and deal with it. He never learned to be an individual. And this, in turn, led him to be willing to do anything to keep Padme by his side.

In the end, Anakin never learned to form a balance between his individual or selfish needs (which he needed to deal with) and the needs of the community. Instead, he had a tendency to be selfish AND to serve the desires of the community at the wrong time.

 

Obi Wan and Yoda had learned even more about the force and were able to retrieve Anakins spirit and help him retain his identity.

 

When did this happen? While Obi-Wan was encouraging Luke to commit patricide? Isn't it possible that Anakin's connection to the Force was strong enough for him to join it upon death without anyone's help?

A little different in meaning (for Luke it's the danger in turning like his father did, for Anakin it's the danger of the path he is going down & Palps seduction).

Or perhaps their wardrobe is a sign that Luke is willing to accept both the good and the darkness within him and that Anakin would LIKE for others to do the same in regard to himself.

 

Obi Wan and Yoda had learned even more about the force and were able to retrieve Anakins spirit and help him retain his identity.[/quote]


Dude, seriously, plot hole goggles.

 

However, IMO the Jedi purge was not a necessity. It was merely how events transpired and theose events allowed the chanegs in the Order to take place.

One could say the same about Palpatine's death. Or the destruction of the Sith, regardless who was head of the order.

 

The reason you're puzzled is because you're looking it at it all wrong. And don't listen to Lucas because the guy is full of it and don't listen to fans that believe Lucas.

The reason Anakin is standing next to Obi-Wan and Yoda is because Anakin didn't do anything wrong. What Anakin turned into was no different than what the people already were. What fans seem to conveniently forget is that Anakin is not same as all the other people in story. Anakin was created by divinity.

So if there's something divine looking over the characters and Star Wars is a morality tale, then to what greater purpose would Darth Vader serve?

Darth Vader insures that Palpatine government will exist because the people wanted Palpatine and his government. The people will have to learn the hard way the sins of complacency and apathy. The people will redeem themselves through a resistance against the very government they created.

 

Darth Vader insures that Palpatine government will exist because the people wanted Palpatine and his government. The people will have to learn the hard way the sins of complacency and apathy. The people will redeem themselves through a resistance against the very government they created.

I was wondering if anyone would notice this. Many fans have focused upon Anakin becoming a Sith and helping Palpatine to rule the galaxy, yet the movies have made it clear that the Republic had just as big a hand in bringing Palpatine to power, as the Jedi, Padme, Jar-Jar, and Anakin, himself.

 

I think we are getting somewhat off the point guys.

 

I am not sure if I understand you. Anakin didn't do anything wrong? He slaughtered Tusken Raiders, murdered Dooku, and willingly became Darth Vader.

 

No we're not. You wanted to know if selfishness caused the shift in the Force. The answer is yes, but it wasn't Anakin's selfishness. It was the selfishness of the people.

 

Actually he wanted to know if individualism could cause a shift to the darkside, not selfishness. Yeah, sometimes there the same but most of the time there not - except by people who like to oversimplify things to fit their views.

 

Actually yeah he did say:

Yeah, sometimes people need to read the entire thread before passing judgement.

I know what individualism is because I have the internet and I can look up the definition of any ism out there. The thing is the word individualism has a broad definition. Extreme indivualism is selfishness; however, political indivualism is a good thing, and it just means the right of the individual to live however they want within the boundaries of the law.

 

Yeah and maybe you should read the title of the thread of which he is the author.

 

Okay that's a good spin but the fact of the matter is that I did not define individualism as selfishness, the author clearly defined individualism as selfishness on page 1 of this thread. You can spin this all you want but it was you that did not appreciate that the word individualism had been defined as selfishness by the author of the thread, and the author is right. Individualism can be defined as selfishness.

 

I can agree with this.

However, your emphasis is in the wrong place. The problem is not the individualism of the members. The problem is that the Order is trying to rule its members with an iron fist.

As a Jedi, the Order eliminates your family, your friends, your things. You are not allowed to feel fear, desire, compasion, ambition, or any emotion at all. The ultimate want of the Order is for every one of its members to be Force using Droids.

It's the deliberate attempts of the Order to suppress the natural individualism of its members that leads to the loss of harmony.

 

Yeah that's what I'm saying too. The problem is most fans cannot come to terms with the fact that the Jedi Order is screwed up. Taking infants from their parents, oppressing emotions and freedoms, teaching children to use weapons at the age of five, and becoming the leaders of cloned slaves. Lucas is just playing a head game.

It wasn't Anakin who was screwed up. It was the galaxy that was screwed up and the galaxy turned him into Darth Vader.

 

"The galaxy turned him into Darth Vader" This is a feeble attempt to absolve Anakin from the personal responsibility of his own actions, he was told that attachment led to the dark side and still he was prepared to murder anyone in order to preserve his attachment to his wife. To suggest those actions were anybody's fault but his own takes a mentally challenged individual or someone who believes that being deliberately obtuse and argumentative makes them appear more intelligent than they are. How about instead of being aggressive and personally abusive, you lay out your own theory and back it up with your own ideas instead of reactionary gainsay which is really no victory at all.

 

^^ Exactly.