Did individualism cause the dark side shift?

I will accept your gage.

But I doubt my ramblings will sway you because you like so many others hang on the Jedi's every word as the absolute truth. You probably have listened to some of Lucas's garrulous verbiage and think the guy is giving you the entire story but he isn't. He's only giving you the point of view of the old Jedi Order, however, many of the truths we cling to depend on our own point of view. I think I heard that somewhere? Lucas is just a con artist. He just took all the ideology that mankind has come up through the millennia and created a pop culture icon.

The Force is not divine and it has no sentience. It is merely an energy given off by all living things both sentient and non-sentient. It's an energy that can be used for good or bad. The non-sentient beings that create the Force probably have no effect on the Force because non-sentient beings create a natural balance. However, sentient beings are capable of horrific crimes. You wanted to know what made the Force turn dark. Anger, fear, aggression all made the Force turn dark. The anger, fear, and aggression nurtured by Palpatine (not created) in between TPM and AOTC has plunged the Force into darkness; however, the Force was already dark around places like Tatooine in TPM. Anakin was created by something divine and placed on a planet that was consumed in corruption, so that when he was found by the Jedi, they would understand what they had to do. The Jedi should have returned to Tatooine and brought peace and justice to the people of Tatooine since they are the guidians of peace and justice in the galaxy. But the Jedi are detached from their emotions, and when you detach yourself from the very things that make you a caring person, you become a shell that feels nothing. But let's get back to Chancellor Palpatine.

All Palpatine did was create situations designed to induce fear and panic because fear is his ally. The thing is Lucas doesn't get into all this because the movies are for the kiddies and kiddies would get bored with all that, but it's right there on the screen. The vox populi is represented by the thunderous applause from the Galactic Senate. See a soul cannot be forced into corruption it has to be seduced. It has to crave. See most fans don't understand the people of the galaxy made the pact with the devil before Anakin. You see those images of little cloned babies in the cloning factory? Those images are supposed to stir your emotions, but most people put their brains in park while they're watching a Star Wars movie, but see you're supposed to stand up and scream, "THAT'S NOT RIGHT! HOW CAN THE JEDI BE A PART OF THAT?"

See the Jedi and people of the Republic willingly gave themselves to the devil years before Anakin did. See Palpatine promised them peace, promised them security and all he asked for was their obedience. All Anakin did was secure the existance of Palpatine's government. See if the Mace would have killed Palpatine the Force would have still been left unbalanced. I'll say again, "Don't listen to Lucas." The guy is only giving you the point of view of the Jedi. All that crap Lucas says is just the simple story that any 9 year old ca

 

"... the person you thought was the villain is really the victim." --- George Lucas in "The Chosen One" (ROTS DVD).

"But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who have greed to match.

So it was with the Republic at its height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside." -- the Journal of the Whills.

"The power you gave me..." -- "I am depending on you." --- "You make yourself [more] my servant!" -- Palpatine, AOTC, ROTS and ROTJ.

Ironclad, I agree. The Republic's decay, as well as the decay of the Jedi order, had started long before Anakin was even born, and before the Sith took over. Palpatine merely took advantage of the prevailing tendencies to corruption and greed - as most dictators, he didn't take power, power was given to him. And Anakin, as Lucas said, was a victim - a victim of his upbringings, his surroundings, his mentors. He was but the catalyst.

 

Anakin killed the Tuskens out of revenge and it turned into temporary insanity when he went after the women and children. He was ordered by Palpatine to kill Dooku and was tricked by him into betraying Mace which led Palps to kill him.

Anakin had no choice but to become Darth Vader now that he realized that he trapped himself in Palpatine's web of lies.

 

We all have a choice PMT99.

Anakin had a choice not to do what he did or listen to Palpatine. He did otherwise because he became greedy and selfish.

 

If "We all have a choice" as you put it. Then why do you make excuses for the Jedi and not Anakin? The Jedi were afraid. The Jedi were selfish and greedy.

A righteous person does make themself part of cloning sentient beings that will have half their childhood stole from them, be forced to murder and wound others, and more than likely be killed and wounded themselves.

For whatever reasons you think it's okay for the Jedi to commit the afore mentioned crimes but somehow you believe Anakin is supposed to be above it.

The Jedi are very afraid to lose their hold on power. That's why they commit crimes against humanity in an effort to keep their hold on power.

For whatever reasons you're bias. But then again most of us are. We see what we want to see.

The Jedi "had a choice not to do what" they "did or listen to Palpatine."

 

Make excuses for what? I dont think they did anything wrong. Anakin on the other hand...

Not sure I follow.

Oh I see. So you think the Jedi were in the wrong for protecting the republic?

I'd love to see an example of that. The Jedi only care about others. Its why they do what they do. if they wanted personal power they would use the dark side chuck.

Why would I be bias? They are characters in a story. Im merly stating the truth. The jedi are good. They are selfless. The Sith are evil and selfish.




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First off Master Shaitan, Anakin couldn't let the Tuskens get away with what they did to his mom and second, he cannot refuse to listen to Palpatine because before he revealed himself as Darth Sidious, he is still the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic who is like the Star Wars version of the "President of the United States" which is why he had to kill Dooku and why the Jedi had to listen to Palpatine. You would be found guilty of treason if you betray the President which is punishable by death or life imprisonment and in the Jedi's case, they've all gotten the death penalty after the Mace Windu posse's failed attempt at arresting Palpatine.

Third, Anakin didn't have any choices after he betrayed Mace because he knows that if he goes back to the Jedi temple, the remaining Jedi will sense that he helped a Sith Lord kill off the Mace Windu posse and will automatically label him a Sith himself so he was forced to become Darth Vader.

 

Why did he have to kill the tuskens? Why did he have to slaughter the women and children? And its not just a case of bringing justice upon them. There was no justice. He acted as judge, jury and executioner and di so out of revenge. It was an act of evil that he chose to do.

I see. So if George Bush told you to shoot your mother you would do it? That has to be the worst piece of non-logic I have ever come across. Sorry. Anakin didn't have to do anything. He chose to do what he did.

So if Anakin refused to kill Dooku he would be killed himself? Hmmm, I dont think so. On what grounds?

So you are saying once he did the wrong thing he couldnt possibly do what was right afterwards incase he got killed himself?! He could have stopped what he was doing at any point - he didnt however because he was greedy and selfish.

The option after killing Mace would be to do thr right thing, stop Sidious and turn himself in. Thats an option. Thats the right thing to do. He wouldnt do that because he was completely self absorbed.

 

...he is still the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic who is like the Star Wars version of the "President of the United States" which is why he had to kill Dooku and why the Jedi had to listen to Palpatine.

But even the President has to follow the law. I doubt Palpatine would have or could have charged Anakin with treason. Now, if he'd willingly let Dooku escape, sure, but not if he brought him back as a prisoner.

 

Going after the women and children was the act of evil but Anakin couldn't stop himself since he was blinded by temporary insanity over the pain of losing his mom. The men, however were acceptable because some of them did kidnap Shmi and tortured her to death.

Well, I wouldn't shoot my own mother but George Bush did tell the US troops to attack Iraq even though that country had nothing to do with the Sept. 11 attacks. I know that most of the troops don't approve of what Bush wants them to do but they had no choice because they had to follow orders and so did Anakin when Palpatine told him to kill Dooku.

Mutiny.
Aiding and abetting a known criminal.

It's not only that he was self absorbed, but it was also because Anakin knows that he's not powerful enough to take down Sidious. Even Sidious himself sensed that which is why he told Yoda that Anakin "will soon become more powerful than either of us." Anakin couldn't turn himself in because he also knows that the Jedi don't take prisoners when it comes to dealing with the Sith which is why he had no choice but to obey Sidious.

 

I'm waiting for another one of your cursing temper tandrums.

The Jedi and the people of the Republic had the choice to listen to or refuse Palpatine just like Anakin.

Master Shaitan you're just follower. You hang on to Lucas' every word and that is where your interpretation of Star Wars comes from.

There is only one quote you'll ever need to remember from Lucas:
"The interesting thing about Star Wars--and I didn't ever really push this very far, because it's not really that important--but there'e a lot going on there that most people haven't come to grips with yet. But when they do, they will find it's a much more intricately made clock than most people would imagine."--Lucas, Vanity Fair-Feb.-'05

See within that quote, Lucas is saying that he never divulged what Star Wars truly means to him. So see all your little Lucas references and all the explanations you have wrought from Lucas quotes mean nothing. You haven't even begun to see Star Wars but maybe one day you will.

The thing is you just can't seem to appreciate the gravity of the Jedi's decision to be part of cloning people to be slaves. See you come up with all these excuses to defend the Jedi because they're your heroes and you just will not accept that they are no longer the heroes when they make themselves part of growing slaves. But they aren't the heroes no matter how many temper tandrums you throw.

Source: Salvatore?s Attack Of The Clones novel
Page 209
Two hundred thousand units are ready, with another million well on the way. Lama Su?s previous boast echoed ominously in Obi-Wan?s thoughts. A production center, supremely efficient, producing a steady stream of superbly trained and conditioned warriors. The implications were staggering.
Obi-Wan stared at the closest embryo, floating contentedly in its fluid, curled and with its little thumb stuck into its mouth. In ten short years, that tiny creature, that tiny man, would be a soldier, killing and, likely, soon enough killed.

page 210-211
The callousness of it all struck Obi-Wan profoundly. Units. Final product. These were living beings they were talking about. Living, breathing, and thinking. To create clones for such a singular purpose, under such control, even stealing half their childhood for efficiency, assaulted his sense of right and wrong, and the fact that a Jedi Master had begun all of this was almost too mush to digest.

 

I'm waiting for another one of your cursing temper tandrums.

and

Master Shaitan you're just follower. You hang on to Lucas' every word...

Uh? Ironclad, I've warned you about this sort of posting before. Why do you persist in this antigonistic behavior? You know I will ban you if you persist, and yet sooner or later you just do it again.

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That has to be the worst piece of non-logic I have ever come across.

Shaitan, that's a border-line flame. You can counter someone's arguments, but insulting their argument as a rebuttal is just a veiled way of insulting them.

 

Point taken Darth Stryphe.

Ironclad:

Some people were having a hard time with the reason that Anakin goes bad. Somebody asked whether somebody could kill Anakin's best friend, so that he really gets angry. They wanted a real betrayal, such as, 'You tried to kill me so now I'm going to try and kill you.' They didn't understand the fact that Anakin is simply greedy. There is no revenge. The revenge of the Sith is Palpatine. It doesn't have much to do with Darth Vader; he's a pawn in the whole scheme. - George Lucas

Now, you can interpret the films differently if you want, but thats what I see and thats what GL intended.

 

I posted this question quite a few weeks ago and there have been some really interesting contributions (mostly positive), but it really seems like things have drifted to 'who did/said what' and has been hovering around one or two specific characters for a while now, so since the original question was a very broad one I was wondering if anyone had any conclusions or thoughts relating to it and not about whose point of view is correct.

 

Selfishness is exactly what caused the "dark side shift" and imbalance. It was selfishness that empowered the Sith to take revenge and take over the galaxy which intun shifted the balance of the force.

It was selfishness which motivated Anakin into betraying the Jedi, saving the Sith and becoming Darth Vader.

All the bad things that happen in the SW saga which results in the dark side taking over are all basedon greed and selfishness. When people acted as individuals in the sense that they only cared about themselves only, bad things happened. When people cared about others and understood there role in the galaxy, good things happened.