Did Karl Rove leak the CIA status of Valerie Plame?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Jul 2, 2005.

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  1. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I still say all this talk of culpability is irrelevant to Rove's future. The Rumsfeld precedent controls: the worse the lapse in judgment, the more secure one's future in the Bush administration becomes. This is so self-evident that even the Daily Show made a joke about it last night.
  2. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    That wasn't the focus of my statement though, OWM.

    It was deliberately crafted to address a specific point of yours, when you asked "if there is no crime, why is there an investigation?"

    Except we both know, and everyone who follows this forum knows, that independent counsels aren't organized like standard criminal investigations. The mere existence of an independent counsel investigation isn't an indication of any wrongdoing.

    You have said as much yourself, which is why it's puzzling that you've now seem to forgotten that.

    In fact, you're opening yourself up to having your own argument used against you. The IC investigation has been going on for 2 years, and in that time, no one even knows if a crime has been committed yet?

    Again, not who committed it, not if it could be proven, but no one knows if there is even an actual crime.

    That would be similiar to the police finding someone sleeping in the park, the state opening a murder investigation, just in case, and then taking two years to find out the difference between "sleeping" and "dead."

    Any defense attorney would look at that and say "The state is digging your honor."

    (and I think you mean Whitewater above, but I understand why you can't bring yourself to print it... ;) )
  3. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    I'm not sure you understand my point, or maybe I don't get yours.

    At the very least, can we agree that for the Independant Counsel...is that what Fitzgerald really is, I mean, he works for Ashcroft/Gonzales, can't really be independant. It seems like he's just prosecuting a case for the United States government, so again, this is totally different from the Ken Starr situation, whom as we all know, was a raving lunatic. And hte IC law has expired.

    Regardless, no matter what, can we at least agree that there has to be a POSSIBILITY of a crime? That is my point, Mr. 44, with any investigation, there has to be a POSSIBLE crime being committed.

    If Valerie Plame is not covered, there is no POSSIBLE crime being committed that I know of, so I would guess that the investigation would have to end. With other cases, even if there was no proof there was a crime being committed, it was still POSSIBLE, that's why they were investigating.

    See the distinction?
  4. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Saw this on another board just a moment ago:

    OK. It?s probably a little early to call it ?the Rove problem,? but as Alan wrote earlier tonight, the WH Press Corps is all over this story. The problem facing the WH now is two-fold. First, the WH previously insisted that Rove had nothing to do with the leak. Second, when this story first broke President Bush said the leaker would be fired.

    We may well see the brilliance of Karl Rove?s strategery over the coming days....

    Here's a new strategy for the WH ? apologizing. While it?s too early to call for Rove to step down (it remains unclear exactly what he knew of Valerie Plame?s role at the CIA as well as exactly what he told reporters). But, regardless of where the investigation leads, the White House needs to confront the facts in a straightforward and honest manner, and appologize to the nation for Mr. Rove's actions regardless of whether or not they were illegal.
  5. JediSmuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 1999
    star 5
    Uh... what about portraying oneself as an objective observer when one was really working for a political candidate's presidential campaign, then writing an op-ed piece in which one lied about what one reported to CIA and who requested the mission, lied about the circumstances of his selection for that mission. At least according to the Senate Intelligence Committee.

    Joe Wilson's ethics and honesty are far more open to debate than Karl Rove's.
  6. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Regardless, no matter what, can we at least agree that there has to be a POSSIBILITY of a crime?

    Sure, I'd agree. But I would also add that anything is possible.

    That's why I offered the "sleeping man analogy" above.

    If a man was just sleeping, and not actually dead, one doesn't need to launch an investigation just to find out who knew the difference.

    At the very least, you would think someone could point to a crime being committed, and all that was left to do was to tie it to who committed it.

    With Plame, we have this media circus where it's been revealed that dozens of people knew her identity, which was the focus of friendly chats at cocktail parties around Washington, yet, on the other hand, it might represent a crime.

    That's the issue, after 2 years, no one knows if there was even any wrongdoing.

    Such a reality is made even worse by the "Bush should apologize no matter what" crowd that was illustrated above.

    If no wrongdoing occured, what would the apology be for?

    Where do you draw the line?



  7. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    What? All I'm trying to do is establish that in all likelihood, Plame was a covert operative for the purposes of the statute.

  8. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    If Rove can't escape prosecution and keep his job, then he isn't the man I give him credit for being, nor is Bush the man I've come to believe him to be either. Bush has proven his loyalty to his inner circle again and again. That loyalty trumps his sense of responsibility to the American people. It trumps his fiduciary duty to the United States of America. It trumps all other moral and ethical and political considerations, apparently.

    In practical considerations, that means there will never, ever be any form of apology for the leak coming from the administration, nor any kind of request for resignation short of an actual criminal verdict.
  9. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    What's a NOC doing parading her status around cocktail parties Mr44? :oops: :_|

    E_S
  10. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    What's a NOC doing parading her status around cocktail parties Mr44?

    Which is the point of many..

    If Plame was protected, no one would know about it. There would be no compromise.

    However, according to the investigation, it was a loose secret around Washington, which is why it has been so hard to pinpoint who knew what. That's were the cocktail party reference came from.

    I mean, she posed on the cover of Vanity Fair!?! True, it was after the original article, but the answer to having your name revealed, is not to turn around and show your face as well.

    If anyone is prosecuted, and not just Rove mind you, couldn't they just hold up the Vanity Fair cover of her laughing and smiling as the cornerstone of their defense?

    Which leads me to believe it wasn't a big deal, until it was manufactured to be.
  11. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    It's a big deal when the NOCS, who are the tougher of the DO's people, are treating their cover as a coversation starter... :(

    More and more I begin to respect Mr Robert Baer.

    Still, I will use this incident in CIA vs SIS pissing contests, if you don't mind? ;)

    E_S
  12. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    OWM: Regardless, no matter what, can we at least agree that there has to be a POSSIBILITY of a crime?

    Mr44: Sure, I'd agree. But I would also add that anything is possible.

    Actually, a crime has been committed. The law was broken. The WH has even acknowledged it. Divulging the identity of a covert agent of the US government is a crime under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act.

    The question lies in the circumstances, not in the action.
    Did Rove leak her name?
    If no, who did?
    If yes, then did he know that Plame was a covert operative?

    That is why there is an investigation. It is not an investigation to discover whether the law was broken. It is an investigation to discover who broke the law, and whether or not it was intentional.

    Also, if yes, then Rove is guilty of lying to the Senate Committee while under oath in 2003, when he categorially denied divulging Plame's name.



    I hate it when people try to blur reality.




  13. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Divulging the identity of a covert agent of the US government is a crime under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act.

    Umm..Chev, the law is true, but your conclusion isn't.

    That's the issue. After two years, the lead federal investigator doesn't even know if Plame was a covert agent, let alone if a crime even happened, so I'm not quite sure how you know it did.

    Answer this:

    If she really was a covert agent, why did she treat her identity as "Jane Bond" at cocktail parties, as an ice breaker?

    How did dozens of people in Washington know of her identity before it was even leaked to Novak?

    That's the main reason why it's taking the investigation so much time, the simple fact that SO many people knew of her, it's been difficult to pinpoint who said what to even establish that a crime was committed.

    If she really was a covert agent, why was the first thing she did after the story was willingly accept money from Vanity Fair to pose on the cover?

    Seems to me, if she was a case officer, national security was the last thing she had on her mind, until of course, she could use it for her advantage.



  14. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    If anyone is prosecuted, and not just Rove mind you, couldn't they just hold up the Vanity Fair cover of her laughing and smiling as the cornerstone of their defense?

    This proves you haven't seen the photo, Mr44. Plame is in the mid-background (Joe Wilson is prominent in the foreground), wearing sunglasses and a kerchief, and she ain't laughing or smiling. Additionally, what little you see of her hair could easily be dyed, or a wig.

    Perhaps you were thinking it was a Penelope Cruz-like spread? Didn't you want to have a look at the photo before posting?

    Which leads me to believe it wasn't a big deal, until it was manufactured to be.

    Hm, kind of reminds me of Condi Rice's comments on Saddam Hussein before and after 9/11, despite the fact Saddam had nothing to do with it.
  15. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    [image=http://img.slate.msn.com/media/64/031202_VF_ValeriePlame.jpg]

    That looks pretty prominent to me.

    Kimball Kinnison
  16. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    That's the picture, and it fits my description, yes. Joe is in the foreground, Plame in the mid-background, seen from shoulders-up, wearing sunglasses and a kerchief, and is quite possibly disguised firther than the picture lets on.

    Should we compare this to other Vanity Fair photos of full body-shots of the usual laughing and smiling faces to compare, which is what mr44 seems to be referring to?
  17. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Yep, that's the picture...

    Yes, I do admit that I remembered her as showing more glee as she was jet-setting around in her convertable, I mean all she needs in her hand is a martini, "shaken, not stirred.." Maybe in my mind, I was confusing her and Wilson, who seems to have a look like he's pulled one over on the American public.

    But it's pretty hard to argue that she didn't know what she was doing, or she was worried about the damages to national security...
  18. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Yes, I do admit that I remembered her as showing more glee as she was jet-setting around in her convertable, I mean all she needs in her hand is a martini, "shaken, not stirred.." Maybe in my mind, I was confusing her and Wilson, who seems to have a look like he's pulled one over on the American public.

    Uh... yeah... obviously... the look of, uh, proud amorality is written all over his face. It's good we can get such an exact reading from people's expressions. Yeah...


    But it's pretty hard to argue that she didn't know what she was doing, or she was worried about the damages to national security...

    Actually her name being known would be more dangerous than a picture where all you can distinguish for certain is that she is a white, 40'sh female with receding dimples. What was already done had as you admit exposed her, and the paper trail of an actual name is far more exact than that photo. You or I still wouldn't be able to pick her out of a lineup, where it might be revealed she actually had red hair and even has a lighter skin tone. Once you've got the information in someone's wallet, you don't need the pictures in it, so to speak.

    Anyway, I fail to see how this photograph makes Karl Rove any less guilty if he's done what he's accused of doing.
  19. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I don't understand the relevance of the picture.

    Didn't the CIA affirm to the Justice Department that Plame did work undercover, that the agency was trying to keep her identity secret, and that Novak or the media would not have discovered her undercover work had it not been for a leak.

    Once her cover was blown nationally and internationally, why bother hiding?

    By the way, when did the phrase "Plame's status was well known at cocktail parties" suddenly convert into "Plame was flaunting her status at cocktail parties."

    Can someone provide a link to some kind of credible source for this?

    It seems to me that "Plame's identity was known on the party circuit" has become such a clicheed catch phrase that it would be worth knowing the source of this comment and whether it really is, in fact true.
  20. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Didn't the CIA affirm to the Justice Department that Plame did work undercover, that the agency was trying to keep her identity secret, and that Novak or the media would not have discovered her undercover work had it not been for a leak.

    Yeah, that's kind of the thing. That the photo came out... what, 7 months later... is not the point. It's like when Clinton was pressed about Lewinsky except on a far more relevant topic. What the couple did afterward is irrelevant. Whether the secret was "big" is also irrelevant. What's relevant is if secret information was leaked and if Karl Rove did it. Even if he didn't know it was confidential information is irrelevant, because he has no place commenting on CIA operatives, whether other people speak of it or not. When speaking to the media you are not to make assumptions about information from another organization. You know, kind of how like McLellan said to the media that he SPOKE with Karl Rove and asked him if he was the leak (Karl said no) instead of just assuming it and saying it to the media.
  21. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5

    -PPOR on that one. How do you know Fitzgerald doesn't know? I mean, the CIA knows, I'm sure they told Fitzgerald.

    -Second, the Vanity Fair picture is absolutely irrelevant to the Rove situation, because it doesn't matter what happened after the alleged criminal act.

    -Again, I feel its fairly ridiculous to think that Valerie wasn't covered under the statute, if you want to be believe Django's article or if you want to trust it common sense.

    Regardless, the real issue here is whether or not Rove had authorized access, and the definition of authorized access. Does it mean that the person actually viewed the classified materials, or that the person had access to the classified materials? Some case law on point might help with that discussion.

    And before any of you go nuts, remember, Valerie Plame cannot be prosecuted for divulging her OWN name, as a matter of public policy, laws cannot be construed to be held agains the class of person they were designed to protect.
  22. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    the real issue may turn out to be what Karl Rove said to the FBI and the Grand Jury. If he said, "I did not leak this information," that will be a lot easier to prosecute perhaps than litigating the issue of whether leaking this information was illegal in the first place.

    So, I'm assuming that this "Plame flaunted her status at cocktail parties" is just the result of an elaborate game of telephone, in which someone whispered the words "Plame's status was well known on the DC party circuit" into the next person's ear, and then it gradually got garbled as it was passed on from one conservative to the next.

    And once again: What is the original source of the whole "everyone knew" comment? Does anyone know?
  23. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Well I think the whole "Plame flaunted this" and "Plame posed for that" is an effort to make it seem like this is something close to Bill Clinton's MonicaGate.

    I mean, did Bill Clinton commit purjury? Yes guys, he did. But hey, was it a big deal? Was the question he was asked relevant to the Oval Office, and did Linda Tripp have any business recording her conversations with Monica? Well maybe not -- in fact probably not, but in the end yes, the fact remains that Clinton lied under oath. It was a sort of entrapment kind of situation, and Whitewater would have been a more relevant scandal, but never mind.

    Likewise, there's a similar thing being tried here. Oh, well, it wasn't a big secret. Wilson and Plame didn't even really value the secret, and it most certainly would never have resulted in her death or target by assassination squads. Well maybe not -- in fact probably not, but in the end yes, the fact remains that Karl may have broken the law.

    We should let everyone decide for themselves what is more relevant to thier lives: a President who we know doesn't want you to know he got a BJ in the Oval Office, or a President's advisor leaking an operative's personal info, either through malice or ignorance, when the operative was probably not going to be targeted for assassination, imprisonment, or deportation.
  24. shinjo_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 5
    It wouldn't surprise me if it was him, and I wouldn't put it past him. This is completely his character, judging from what we have seen over the past few years, since the 2000 Republican Primary. Funny the Chairman of the RNC stated this was just a smear campaign by the Democrats - considering that is what made Karl Rove so infamous.
  25. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Well, my brother linked to this earlier, but according to Clifford May's September 29, 2003 column:
    It's the top story in the Washington Post this morning as well as in many other media outlets. Who leaked the fact that the wife of Joseph C. Wilson IV worked for the CIA?

    What also might be worth asking: "Who didn't know?"

    I believe I was the first to publicly question the credibility of Mr. Wilson, a retired diplomat sent to Niger to look into reports that Saddam Hussein had attempted to purchase yellowcake uranium for his nuclear-weapons program.

    On July 6, Mr. Wilson wrote an op-ed for the New York Times in which he said: "I have little choice but to conclude that some of the intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat."

    On July 11, I wrote a piece for NRO arguing that Mr. Wilson had no basis for that conclusion ? and that his political leanings and associations (not disclosed by the Times and others journalists interviewing him) cast serious doubt on his objectivity.

    On July 14, Robert Novak wrote a column in the Post and other newspapers naming Mr. Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, as a CIA operative.

    That wasn't news to me. I had been told that ? but not by anyone working in the White House. Rather, I learned it from someone who formerly worked in the government and he mentioned it in an offhand manner, leading me to infer it was something that insiders were well aware of.
    That's one of the earlier reports I can find. Unfortunately, many of the Google hits talk about the fuss after that, rather than who knew. I'll keep looking, though.

    Kimball Kinnison
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