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Did Karl Rove leak the CIA status of Valerie Plame?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Jul 2, 2005.

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  1. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    At least one.

    But that's an incorrect assumption. The law certainly doesn't codify a difference between reporters and my neighbor Barney.

    If it does, show me the passage where it says "CIA employees can talk with their neighbors, but not the press."

    If someone is protected by the CIA, they wouldn't tell ANYONE of their true status. Not their neighbor, not the press, not their favorite aunt. It's not a compromiseable point.

    If someone isn't protected, and just happens to work at the CIA, it doesn't matter who they tell. This person can go on Blind-date.com and enter in "CIA employee" under their job, for thousands of people to see.

    If you can't get past even that, you won't begin to understand why the investigation has taken 2 years without any real results.
     
  2. BenduHopkins

    BenduHopkins Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2004
    It seems like this case is going nowhere fast. There are laws protecting leakers. They have to do it "knowingly" and "with intent" or some nonsense, so it must be proven that Rove did it as a retaliation and they need another recorded conversation or certified email, otherwise it will be "hearsay". The bad guys are protected under this administration.
     
  3. Gonk

    Gonk Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1998
    No, because he would still be bound by the classificaion system. Secret terms aren't thrown around the office for those who aren't cleared for the information.

    It's either secret (or top secret, or confidental) or it's not.


    I find it highly inconcevable the law:

    A) Makes no provisions for an allied general to either mistakenly utter that word or provisions for if the word is overheard/eavesdropped in another conversation when no top secret status can be inferred from the conversation from the listener (who shouldn't be listening anyway, but hey, eavesdropping on top secret conversations when you don't know they're top secret isn't illegal either)

    and

    B) Makes it the sole responsibility of that general to keep that information confidential in case a mistake or accident occurs, and confers no liability on others that work with him to assume a responsibility with the information they come across on account of thier position close to "insiders".
     
  4. Cheveyo

    Cheveyo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2001
    Chev, this is where you are making your assumption. The main thing you are overlooking is that maybe, NO ONE leaked this information.

    That's a ridiculous argument. Classic, but ridiculous. If NO ONE leaked this information, then how do we all know that Valerie Plame was an undercover agent for the CIA? If NO ONE leaked the information, we'd be saying "What information? What are you talking about?"

    If Plame was undercover, and the CIA was taking active and real measures to conceal her identity, why did she pubically use her own name to recommend Wilson for the original trip?

    Show me proof that:
    a) she used her name publicly to recommend Wilson for the trip, and
    b) that she divulged her employment as an undercover CIA agent.

    Saying, "Hi, My name is Valerie Plame," does not equal, "hi, I'm a CIA operative." If you know so much about CIA agent operations, please tell me why she would not operate under her real name?

    Removing Rove and Novak for a minute, don't you think there might have been a very real conflict of interest by Plame linking herself to her husband in the first place?

    You are assuming it was neither in her job capacity, nor in the interst of CIA operations. you are also trying in vain to point the accusatory finger elsewhere. That just doesn't fly. Sorry.

    Plame used her own name "Valerie Plame" when she recommend Wilson for the trip. If she outed herself, no crime was ever committed.

    Show me that she publicly outted herself, and I guarantee you'll be receiving a knock on the door--I bet Rove's attorney would love to get his hands on such irrefutable evidence.

    Why would they have any expectation that Plame's identity was protected, especially since it was known that Plame simply worked for the CIA?

    Because on paper she (as Valerie Plame) did not work for the CIA, she worked for the cover company, Brewster, Jennings & Associates. It is being argued that only classified documents identified her as a covert CIA operative, thus outting the rest of Brewster, Jennings & Associates, by the way. I said that before, but you conveniently ignored that.

    The San Francisco Chronicle has put together a nice factual timeline of the Plame Leak case thus far:

    The Niger connection
    In February 2002 Joseph Wilson, former U.S. Ambassador to Gabon and former charge d'affaires in Baghdad, travels to Niger on a CIA-financed mission to investigate reports that Niger had sold nuclear material to Iraq. Wilson concludes that the sale did not occur and in March 2002 provides a detailed briefing to the CIA and the State Department African Affairs Bureau.

    Bush talks of 'uranium from Africa'
    In his January 28, 2003, State of the Union address, President Bush states: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

    Wilson goes public
    In a July 6, 2003, op-ed column in the New York Times, Wilson publicly disputes the Bush administration's claims about Iraq's alleged nuclear program. The column concludes: "More than 200 American soldiers have lost their lives in Iraq already. We have a duty to ensure that their sacrifice came for the right reasons."

    Wilson's wife identified as a CIA operative
    One week later, in a July 14 syndicated column, Chicago Sun-Times columnist Robert Novak identifies Valerie Plame, Wilson's wife, as a CIA employee. Three days later, Time Magazine's Matthew Cooper, indicates in a story that Plame's name and CIA function were leaked to the magazine by a government official. At first denying his story was based on a leak, Novak in a July 21 interview with Newsday says his sources came to him with the information about Plame. "They gave me the nam
     
  5. Obi-Wan McCartney

    Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 1999
    Looking at these posts, it seems like my friends on the left and right are kind of going over the same ground over and over.

    Again, Plame was most likely covered by the statute, or there would be nothing to investigate.

    The only question here is if ROVE HIMSELF did something illegal.

    So we have much ado about nothing, untinl Fitzgerald gives on the goods to this one question:

    DId Rove have authorized access to Plame's covert status, and did he reveal as much to anyone by express language or implication?

    WE DON'T KNOW. I think both sides have agreed to this much, it's interesting to me there is still so much discusison.

    The conservatives are all over this because they don't want to see Rove go down, so they are reading the situation as favorable to Rove as possible, and vice versa.
     
  6. severian28

    severian28 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Illegalities aside I would like nothing better then to see Roves' career destroyed. He's destroyed plenty of other's that were in his way. He's one of the most unethical people to ever work in the White House.
     
  7. Cheveyo

    Cheveyo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2001
    Actually, OWM, Mr44 and KK are insinuating that in all likelihood, Plame was not even covert status, and if it happens that she was, either she was not covert enough, or she actually outted herself... therefor no crime is committed.

    I in turn am arguing that Mr44, KK, J-Rod, and others, with no due respect, are ignoring reality and, like so many on that side of the table, have opted for rewriting fact so as to better save the administrations's unsavory backside (through loyalty, if not actual capacity).

    That is what the debate seems to be about at the moment.

    [face_flag] o_O [face_flag]
     
  8. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    Remember that the CIA made its own investigation into the matter. It concluded in September 2003 that the statute was likely violated, and asked the FBI to begin an investigation. That's what prompted the press conference in which McClellan was aksed if Rove did it, and McClellan responded, "that's ridiculous."

    It looks to me like Clifford May of the, get this National Review Online [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh]

    hold on...


    [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh]

    remains the sole source, from September 2003, of the now widely circulated but completely unsubstantiated claim that Plame's identity was "common knowledge."

    If anyone has found any source that does not simply repeat May's claim, I'm excited to learn about it.

    Another claim that remains unsubstantiated to this day from any source other than Novak/Rove is that Plame recommended her husband for the trip to Niger.
     
  9. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    The conservatives are all over this because they don't want to see Rove go down, so they are reading the situation as favorable to Rove as possible, and vice versa.

    That's where you're wrong OWM.. I thought I made it perfectly clear that I could care less what happens to Rove. I think that's a result of your own perception, which is linked to you seeing this as a "sides" issue.

    What bothers me is that I suspect if this was anyone else but Rove, this wouldn't even be a big deal.

    The prevailing attitude for some people is one of Severian's above, which basically says "I just want Rove to go down, I don't care how."

    You said as much before OWM, when you said "I hated the investigation over Clinton, and now it's payback time.."

    Well, revenge is never a good reason to initiate a criminal investigation, especially one which has the sole purpose of destroying a person. This applies to Rove, or Clintion, or my neighbor Barney.

    Have you learned nothing from studing the famous McCarthy trials, OWM? Or do you think the handling of Whitewater before, now justifies an anything goes attitude?

     
  10. Django211

    Django211 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 1999
  11. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    What bothers me is that I suspect if this was anyone else but Rove, this wouldn't even be a big deal.

    The CIA launched an investigation because they felt the compromise of Plame's identity was a big deal. They didn't know Rove leaked the information. They didn't know Rove leaked the information when whey asked the DOJ to investigate.
     
  12. Django211

    Django211 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 1999
    To try and downplay the situtation a number of defenses are being used by the right. First is trying to discredit Wilson & Plame. Trying to say that Wilson wasn't qualified to go on a fact finding mission. He was a former ambassador to Gabon and São Tomé and Príncipe during Bush 41. Under Clinton he was consulted for the NSC in regards to Africa. He knew Sadaam Hussein & had openly defied him & set up refuge for American citizens during the Gulf war as well as helping them leave the country. Plame has been called a nobody, a desk jockey and minor player in hopes that outing her was of little consequence. However what some fail to realize is that if one is undercover it doesn't matter if they are masquerading as a janitor or CEO, they are undercover. At the same time some of these people are saying that Wilson was sent on Plame's authority. How could a lowly desk jockey authorize a mission like this? Simple, she can't. Whether she recommended her husband, for something he was qualified to do, is still unsubstantiated. What we do know is he was approved for the mission at the behest of the administration. I have yet to see anywhere that Plame was flaunting her cover other than here. Recently there was an article where Plame's neighbor wrote about the shock when she discovered she was a member of the CIA.

    An interesting fact is that as vice president George H.W. Bush was a key figure in getting the Intelligence Identities Protection Act passed into law. He said, "I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are in my view the most insidious of traitors."
     
  13. Gonk

    Gonk Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1998
    What bothers me is that I suspect if this was anyone else but Rove, this wouldn't even be a big deal.

    A big deal to us and the media, or a big deal to law enforcement?
     
  14. Cheveyo

    Cheveyo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2001
    The CIA launched an investigation because they felt the compromise of Plame's identity was a big deal. They didn't know Rove leaked the information. They didn't know Rove leaked the information when whey asked the DOJ to investigate.

    That effectively kills the DNC's argument that this is nothing more than a smear campaign set against Rove and the WH.

    An interesting fact is that as vice president George H.W. Bush was a key figure in getting the Intelligence Identities Protection Act passed into law. He said, "I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are in my view the most insidious of traitors."

    I wonder what Senior's thinking right about now.






     
  15. severian28

    severian28 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2004
    What bothers me is that I suspect if this was anyone else but Rove, this wouldn't even be a big deal.



    Oh please stop. No matter how the chips fall legally, this guy doesnt deserve his job. If the Bush administration were treated as roughly by the Democrats as the Clinton adminstration was by the Republicans there would be an empty White House. Its about freakin time someone gets fired, and not resign either - fired.
     
  16. Gonk

    Gonk Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1998
    "Oh God... I knew I shouldn't have eaten Japanese. I have to listen to Barney more often."
     
  17. Obi-Wan McCartney

    Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 1999

    You werent' on any Mercy Mission THIS time your highness, you are part of a Rebel Alliance and a traitor or, err spy!

    First, I'll let it slide once, twice, but to continually bring up an offhand remark I may or may not have made, and continually recharecterize it? PPOR. Right, because I think it's payback (allegedly), Rove is INNOCENT!?! How about tryign to stick to the material, and quit trying to ascribe motive. My bias makes Rove no more or less guilty.

    Second, again, what's with the trying to continually bring in Clinton? LET IT GO, Clinton isn't president anymore.

    Third, ridiculous, Mr. 44, that you purport to claim that I have bias and YOU have none. I am saying we all have bias. It's unavoidable. McCartny witch trial? Get real, Mr. 44. If anyone is conducting witchtrials, its the Bush adminsitration and their playing fast and lose with civil liberties and international law.

    Regardless, OF COURSE this is a big deal because its ROVE. He's the President's right hand man. Did you think Sandy Berger was "no big deal," or do you think it was appropriate that he plead guilty and some justice was done?

    Again, YOUR attitude is that this Rove thing is "no big deal." It's potentially a very big deal, especially if Rove broke the law. Innocent till proven guilty aside, what would you think if it turned out Rove DID in fact technically but certainly violate the statute?

    Fourth, Chev, I know that's what they say, and they are most likely wrong.


     
  18. severian28

    severian28 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Oh, I definetly have bias in this instance. Republicans wanna play this game when it favors them but whine like little girls when it doesnt? NO WAY. What goes around comes around. So cliche, yet so true. Theres a price for everything and Roves about to pay it and he certainly deserves it. I seriously doubt that alot of Republicans are going to pitch much of a bitch with Rove anyway. The neocons are the ones that will be troubled by this.
     
  19. Gonk

    Gonk Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1998
    We're all biased, of course.

    But some more than others and me least of all! Wheeeee!
     
  20. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Che, if a NOC operative is using her status as a conversation stater at parties, then frankly she deserves what she gets.

    Notice I said "if".

    E_S
     
  21. severian28

    severian28 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2004
    According to Roves' lawyer it was actually Cooper that called Rove and the conversation was actually about welfare reform. It deviated slighly towards the end and some conversation was made about Plame and you know what? I dont even care. Fire him. Its time for that man to cut off his pound of flesh. From this point on he and people like him should have no place in American politics.
     
  22. Django211

    Django211 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 1999
    Where is this cocktail stuff coming from other than Mr44? Please find me a source that says Plame was so cavalier with her cover. Ender I'm a little surprised that you of all people would be dignifying this weak charge.

    During the 2004 presidential debates both Bush & Kerry stated that nuclear proliferation was the most important issue facing the US. Valerie Plame was working on finding those weapons. Her cover was blown, which ruined a great deal of CIA resources in finding real WMDs. Rove would not have had access at the time to Plame's cover, so the question becomes who told him. Right now there is speculation that John Bolton, who had access to State Department files, may be the one who told Rove. This does not let Rove off the hook. He could still be brought up on a number of different charges including perjury.
     
  23. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    Yes, MR44 and Ender, where is the cocktail party stuff coming from?

    I've asked MR44 repeatedly today what his source is, but he's ignored me, so I'm going to have to assume that my explanation that Clifford May's unsubstantiated comment about having known her identity beforehand has somehow morphed into "Plame wore a t shirt at cocktail parties that said "Kiss me, I'm a covert CIA operative."

    To date, May and Novak are pretty much the only known sources of the "common knowledge" excuse.
     
  24. Darth_Stern

    Darth_Stern Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2003
    To answer this topics question.

    ...Yes, Yes he did.

    And being a traitor to ones country for the purpose of political payback is unforgivable and jail worthy.


     
  25. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    I've asked MR44 repeatedly today what his source is, but he's ignored me, so I'm going to have to assume that my explanation that Clifford May's unsubstantiated comment about having known her identity beforehand has somehow morphed into "Plame wore a t shirt at cocktail parties that said "Kiss me, I'm a covert CIA operative."

    Wrong. Nobody's been ignoring you, trying to collect everything, yes, but ignore? no.

    Two White House Officials leaked the name of Wilson's wife, also leveling the bias charge, to conservative columnist and talking head Bob Novak, who printed the story. The revealing of a CIA operative is a federal offense. However, it is not certain whether or not she was a covert operative covered under that federal statute.

    Who posted the above point? None other than OWM 9/30/03 11:45am, on this very forum.

    Next:

    Novak's orignal column, October 1, 2003:

    The Justice Department investigation was not requested by CIA Director George Tenet. Any leak of classified information is routinely passed by the Agency to Justice, averaging one a week. This investigative request was made in July shortly after the column was published. Reported only last weekend, the request ignited anti-Bush furor.

    From the Wall Street Journal Oct 2003, taken from Wilson himself:

    Wilson initially suggested that White House political adviser Karl Rove was responsible for, or at least condoned, the leak and wondered publicly in August about the prospect of Mr. Rove being 'frog-marched out of the White House in handcuffs.' Now, he acknowledges that he can't link Mr. Rove directly to the initial disclosure.

    " 'I will freely admit I got carried away,' Mr. Wilson says. 'If I left the impression that Karl Rove was the leaker or approver of the leak, I didn't intend to.' Now, he says Mr. Rove 'is a name I am prepared to use as a metaphor for the office.' "


    Finally, Who Knew Plame's identity?

    Let's look to the original MSNBC article dated Oct 02. 2003:

    MSNBC, listed 02Oct03:

    The investigators? first task will be to attempt to narrow the list of government officials who were aware of the agent?s(Plame's) identity ? a number believed to be in the hundreds.


    in addition to:

    HERE

    and

    Maureen Dowd, in NRO online:

    Wilson and Plame met at a Washington cocktail party six years ago, when she used her status as an employee for the CIA as an icebreaker.

    And the resulting conclusion?

    Again, let's look no farther than our very own OWM dated 10/02/03:

    I will concede the seriousness of this charge is being blown up because it's political, sure. And that fact doesn't really change my opinion about it.MR. 44, to some extent you are right. I was mad as hell over the Clinton impeachment. That impeachment screwed up what should have been a great term for Clinton, and while I admit Clinton screwed himself, it all boils down to politics. The GOP used a dirty underhanded trick to try and stop Clinton from doing great things in his second term. I don't see why Bush should get a pass.

    And how did I get the "Plame smiling in Vanity Affair ptcure in my mind?

    Washington Post Wednesday, December 3, 2003; Page C01:

    features a two-page photo of Wilson and the woman the magazine calls "the most famous female spy in America," a "slim 40-year-old with white-blond hair and a big, bright smile." They are sitting in their Jaguar. Plame is wearing a scarf and big glasses, which just adds to the aura of mystery.

    Plame also mingled unobtrusively last month at a party at the home of The Washington Post's Ben Bradlee and Sally Quinn. But there has been an invisible bubble around her as reporters have respected the desire of "Jane Bond," as Wilson calls her, to remain in the Washington shadows.


    Plame's "covert" status?

    From the Village Voice Oct29, 2003:

    The disclosure that Plame gave $1,000 to former vice pres
     
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