Did Lucas betray Padme?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Jumpman, Nov 14, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. yoda900 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 3
    I am not quite sure the question here is the right question to ask.

    Did lucas Betray Padme?

    Uh, no not quite. Lucas was not part of the story, padme was. Thereby from deductive reasonsing, there is no possibl way Lucas could betray Padme.

    You see, this nice kid who went completely nuts by the name of Anikin Betrayed Padme. I would even also say Palpatine betrayed her as well.
    From her point of view from Episode 1, Palps was supposed to be her friend and on her side, and what does she get from it? 3 attempts to kill her. What a great friend he was :(
    phooey.


  2. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    " Just because a droid states Padme has lost the will to live doesn't make it so. She was dying for unknown reasons. Obi Wan makes a pretty good point in Episode 2 that if droids could think there wouldnt be any of us. Fact is the droids were bewildered and made the assumption that it was her own will giving up. I feel it points to something more; something connected to the force and the force empowered children. The droid was a creation of Lucas' but it doesn't absolutley define what he was trying to allude to in the nature of her end. For one thing she takes the time to name both of her children after struggling with all her energy to bring them int othe world. Then with her dying breath she takes the energy to tell Obi Wan that there is still good in Anakin."

    Excellent, excellent point.
  3. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2

    You assume too much... Just because a droid states Padme has lost the will to live doesn't make it so. She was dying for unknown reasons.

    But what we're left w/ is a line that ties together too tightly (for me) w/ the "Lady of Shalott" funeral (which was not accidental I've read but a deliberate decision) scene for me to ignore the symbolism. As for it being harsh to call her death Victorian - It's not harsh, Master, if it's the truth![face_mischief]

    This character death sticks in my craw and I've yet to read or hear a single explanation that makes sense. I understand her death symbolizes the death of liberty and the Republic but in point of fact it is explained (or not explained) poorly.

    I'm more than willing to believe that I'm taking this much too personally since I've given birth to twins (a boy and girl) myself and for this reason her death bothers me a lot more than the average person. I probably just need to let it go.
    />/>
  4. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    You can have your opinion but for me, I always looked at her death first in symbolic terms for the Republic point of view and from Anakin's story point of view. The literal does not interest me this time.

    Does anyone agree with me that Palpatine had too much control of the delegation for Padme and Bail to act within the story of Episode III?
  5. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    I don't think Lucas necessarily betrayed the character, but rather that many of us were disappointed with her portrayal in the final film. I think many of us were convinced that Padme's ending was not going to be handled properly given what little we knew of her in the OT.

    We knew she had to get pregnant, give birth and then die somehow. We wanted to know how all this was going to work with Anakin becoming Darth Vader.

    Where many of us have a problem lies in how we came to know Padme in TPM and AOTC. We saw this strong and brave women, who was not afraid of a fight when necessary. In TPM and most of AOTC, her focus was on that of her political life. But as AOTC progressed and she got closer to Anakin, her focused changed to her feelings about him. She even said, "I have been dying a little each day since you came back into my life" As we know now this really foreshadowed her end in ROTS.

    Anyway, so at the end of AOTC, she gets married, and this showed that she then placed her personal over her political life, and this became even more prominent in ROTS, as the first time we see and hear her, her focus is on Anakin, not the status of the war. To express this even more what I am saying, the fact that Padme becomes pregnant shows her priorities have changed in that she places her marriage above her political role, or else she would have made sure she did not become pregnant.

    Lastly, she has settled in as the wife of Anakin, and making him her primary focus, moreso than political deabtes and fighting in physical battles. Then add on her being pregnant, and the prospects of becoming a mother as well as a wife and so you have a different woman per se because her changing priorities.

    Again, I don't think Lucas betrayed Padme, but rather given her priorities it therefore was not necessary to focus on that side of her personality we saw in the first two films, but that side of her that would bring her to her eventual fate.

    Darth Sin! :cool:
  6. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    Sin,

    Don't you think in some small way that Padme earned the right to think about her feelings for once, even during the political climate of the time?

    I mean, look at her in Episode I. She's 14 and the ruler of a system. That pretty much tells me that she's never had a childhood or was allowed to understand who she was as a person. She's been defined by her political career.

    As Episode II progresses, she states that she was "relieved when her two terms were up", but that when "the Queen asked her server as Senator, she couldn't refuse her." In those statements, it's clear Padme wanted to move on to something else but her dedication to the Republic and democracy was too great. But, there is conflict there.

    By Episode III, I think she should be allowed to think about the family she is about to have and peace. She's been in the policial arena for 18 years, at least. Granted, during these trying times, she shouldn't be thinking about what she wants but that's natural considering she's scared for her husband and she's scared for her, Anakin's and their unborn's safety. I just see it as natural progression for this character considering she had no childhood to speak of.
  7. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    Of course her char is a ttl opposite of what it was in EPI/II,
    she was not married and preg in either.
    In III she is a wife, living a secret life, is pregnant which she
    also has to keep secret. Having to live a lie would in itself
    make one feel alone and depressed. She slowly moved away from her
    former identity as a result of the life she chose to live in secret
    with Anakin. A mistake? yes and they knew in EPII living this life
    would destroy them both, which it did.
    Padme is EPII is in control. In EPIII she is not b/c of her secret life.
    Everything has slipped away from her; politically and personally.
    In the end, she loses everything she once fought for, loses Ani,
    loses her strength and determination.
    We see a glimpse of the old Padme when she takes matters into her own
    hands [while very pregnant] and goes to Mustafar to confront Ani.
    After seeing him slip away from her, seeing him place his need for
    power and control above his need to be with her, she is dealt the
    final blow that sucks the remaining life out of her.
  8. WormieSaber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 5
    She doesnt really stand up vs Leia.

    Yeah she is definitely not larger than life like Princess Leia was. But she protrayed a Queen nicely in the first one. She should have changed more, and I think Anakin and her relationship should have changed more -- who like each other that much after so many years.
  9. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    Padme's character was compromised, because she began to think more about her family than the Republic in ROTS? Padme was human, not a political machine. Even Leia's character had softened by the second half of ROTJ . . . and a lot of people had complained about that! Or was it simply Carrie Fisher's performance? I don't know.
  10. Greedo_forever Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2005
    star 3
    Sorry, I meant tying in to Victorian CHAUVINISM (or Arthurian, or Wagnerian). I think that Lucas was just mimicking a painting or a story. Romanticistic paintings and poetry in that era sure were pretty and dramatic, despite the goings on in society during those days.

    Its too bad that gender issues can ruin good art like the pre-raphaelites. But then again, I'm a 24 yr old man with a soft spot for Loreena McKennit...
  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    " Just because a droid states Padme has lost the will to live doesn't make it so. She was dying for unknown reasons. Obi Wan makes a pretty good point in Episode 2 that if droids could think there wouldnt be any of us. Fact is the droids were bewildered and made the assumption that it was her own will giving up. I feel it points to something more; something connected to the force and the force empowered children. The droid was a creation of Lucas' but it doesn't absolutley define what he was trying to allude to in the nature of her end. For one thing she takes the time to name both of her children after struggling with all her energy to bring them int othe world. Then with her dying breath she takes the energy to tell Obi Wan that there is still good in Anakin."

    Both Lucas and McCallum have alluded that Padme does die of a broken heart. That she lost the will to live. So the droid, which doesn't understand human beheavior as Threepio claims, is clueless. In the novelization, which Lucas line edited, Obi-wan knows why she's dying. She has a broken heart and that is why she is losing the will to live.


    Padme was never much of a character before Lucas wrote the PT. She was just the woman that Anakin married and fathered a couple of kids with. Lucas created the elements that show where Leia gets her toughness, but there was never that much for her to do when he got to ROTS. I don't think he betrayed the character. He just didn't have much for her to do, especially being pregnant and all.
  12. lovelucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2004
    star 4
    and leia was never pregnant nor had to hide the most important relationship of her life etc etc - different trilogy, different characters, different times.

    the padme at the end of AotC is a different padme than the one who said "i hate running away" (that may not be the exact quote)when forced by palpatine to leave coruscant for naboo. by the wedding scene she has already put anakin as the focus of her life even though she previously stated they would be destroyed if she did so.

    and padme's death is not a mere giving up the will, if what the droid thinks is even the truth - but the recognition that on mustafar she now sees anakin for what he is at that point- sacrificing their love for his love of power. and she is responsible(guilt)for him turning to palpatine and the dark side which resulted in the loss of everything she believed in, everything she fought and sacrificed for - there is no fight left, there is no leia "spunk" nor should there be. this is a different part of the story - it's the tragic part.
  13. RolandofGilead Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2001
    star 7
    I like Obi-wan's explanation from the Last of the Jedi Young Readers novel. He said that the injuries she suffered were graver than they were aware of at first. That she had just enough life left in her for either herself, or her children, and she chose the twins.

    A bit metaphysical I know, but in a world of Force powers it's not that far fetched.
  14. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    You've hit it right on the nose. I think that a lot of people seemed to have forgotten that the Anakin/Padme romance was a take-off on the Medieval-style or Pre-Raphaelites style romance, both in their dialogue and in the two characters' fates.

    And you might be right about Padme's death being a tie-in to chauvinsism. Padme's death seemed to symbolize the death of the Republic and the emergence of the uber-masculinity of the Empire.
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Yes, Padme does change. She stops thinking about the Republic as much as she used to. She thinks more about what she wants than what's best for the Republic. It's sutble. She still cares about Democracy and all the good tennets of society, but she's also more concerned with trying to keep her personal life the same. Much like Anakin is. Only she isn't willing to sacrifice everything like her husband has. That's what separates them. And losing the very thing that she has wanted, it becomes too much for her.
  16. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    Perfect post, sinister.

    By your post, sinister, do you think that Padme is a lesser character because during the Republic's most trying time, she thinks about herself and her family first than doing her duty as we've seen her do in Episodes I and II?

    I'm not saying I agree with the question. I just want to hear your take.
  17. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    The questions I'm asking really can only be answered definitively by Lucas and Portman. They are the definitive when it comes to the character. I'm just naturally curious about the subject that tends to be people's sore spot with Episode III.

  18. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    I don't think she's a lesser person for thinking more of her family. What's wrong with that? She's only human. I suspect that one of the reasons why she was flawed to begin with is that she had allowed her "duty" to Naboo and the Republic to overshadow any kind of personal life she may have had. With the loss of the Republic, all she had left was Anakin. And she lost him during their reunion on Mustafar.

    Leia had a similar flaw in the Original Trilogy. She allowed duty to overshadow any chance for a personal life. Remember how the loss of Han had affected her in ESB? Instead of sinking into despair, she reacted with anger by encouraging Chewie to strangle Lando. Not very admirable.

    Unfortunately for Padme, she became affected by the loss of the Republic and especially Anakin at a time when she was on the verge of giving birth. And the state of a woman's body can be perilous, during childbirth.
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    But Leia did not fall apart. She still hung to hope that he was alive and that they could rescue him. I don't think Padme's a lesser character. I think it's meant to show that she loved as much as Anakin did, but she knew the difference between compassionate love and possessive love. She couldn't adapt to the idea that her husband was a monster. She faced a lot of sadness in her life and this was the ultimate heart breaking moment.

    Her death is the opposite of what you'd come to expect, which is why Lucas chose it in the end.
  20. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    Thanks sinister and Ramred.

    I have the same thoughts. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't bias or crazy.
  21. YYZ-2112 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    Where can i find this allusion at? Is it part of a documentary or DVD commentary somewhere? I've never been much for understanding a film through outside sources but in this case I'd like to see the source.

    Preciate any feedback you might have concerning your source.
  22. Child_of_the_70s Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2003
    star 3
    Her death is the opposite of what you'd come to expect, which is why Lucas chose it in the end.

    Or...it's the 50-something maudlin Lucas at work, as opposed to the 30-something edgier Lucas that crafted Leia.

    Padme's end, like Anakin's turn to the darkside, was rather flat. Here was a chance for figurative pyrotechnics to accompany the literal ones he's grown so obsessed about - and (in my opinion) it fell like an old souffle. I realize that statement that the (now soft) Lucas wanted to make with her. However, I think that, in doing so, he not only compromised the character, but sacrificed elements of the story and missed a chance for cinematic coolness. Compare Luke's reaction to finding out Vader is his dad (freak-out) to Padme's comparatively reserved reaction to finding out her husband had just embraced the dark side. Disappointing.
  23. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    I know that Leia did not fall apart in the same manner as her mother. But she did react over the loss of Han in another negative manner - ANGER.
  24. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    I know that Leia did not fall apart in the same manner as her mother. But she did react over the loss of Han in another negative manner - ANGER. It was a very weak moment for Leia. I'm not saying that Leia was stronger or weaker than Padme . . . just different.
  25. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    I just posted this on another board but I'll post here as well as it seems appropriate:

    Padmé: I don?t know you anymore

    Anakin your breaking my heart.

    Your going down a path I can?t follow.

    >>>But she says it's not too late, "there is still good in him"

    Padmé's dying words are SO important. They bring enlightenment to Kenobi, Luke and finally Anakin, too.

    What if the statement is a realization to Padmé that she must tell to Obi-Wan?

    What if, by saying: "Obi-Wan...there is good in him. I know...I know there is...still...",

    Is she telling Obi-Wan, you were wrong about him?

    Maybe, she's saying, don't give up on Anakin, Obi-Wan.

    Although Padmé could not reach Anakin with her love, maybe the unconditional love of his children will be able to succeed where she failed....

    (Sinister - there appear to be several boards all addressing this same question:)
    http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=19589664&brd=10331&start=22309573
    http://boards.theforce.net/revenge_of_the_sith/b10331/19273180/p1 (one of the original boards)
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.