Did Lucas betray Padme?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Jumpman, Nov 14, 2005.

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  1. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
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    i agree.its not like a woman with a big pregnant belly can be running around with a blaster in her hands the way she did in the 2 previous movies,now she has not only her own life to take care off.
  2. THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2004
    star 4
    Does anyone agree with me that Palpatine had too much control of the delegation for Padme and Bail to act within the story of Episode III?

    Jumpman I believe so. I guess thats why secrecy was so important. I think the deleted scenes especially conronting the Chancellor were excellent scenes as one gets an understanding of where Padme and ANakin stand politically. I guess one can go back to that picnic scene and fast forward to the deleted scenes and there is definitely a connection.
  3. SWJaggy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2003
    star 4
    I do wish Padme had been shown a bit more in the film than she had been but we have to remember that this movie was the sole focus on Anakin's turn to the dark side. Yes Padme had been a strong character in the first two films but this episode was the darkest and in order to do so GL (in my perspective) needed less of the joy and happiness that Padme brought.
  4. RogueScribner Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
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    I'm of a mind that many of the "mysteries" that Lucas constructs are the result of a creative block (see also: Count Dooku). He couldn't think of anything better, so he left it vague to let the audience do the work for him. Padmé's death was one of the worst things about ROTS. Lucas likes to let his characters go out like punks. Can't anyone outside of Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin, Palpatine, and Porkins have a good death? He attempted to make her death about Anakin, but it doesn't work. Would it have been worse to play her death the same, save for changing the cause of death from some unknown "she's lost the will to live" factor to something a bit more tangible (like an injury Anakin could have inflicted upon her or a difficult birth)? I don't think so. Padmé's death was theatrical nonsense. I realize Star Wars is a fantasy, but those look like real people on the screen and I expect them to behave within the realm of believability.
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    First there is this.

    "The thing that breaks Padme's heart in the end is the fact that Anakin says to her, 'Come and join me. I have all the power now. I can rule the universe and you can do it with me.' So the idea of saving her life has become a minor issue. And that's when she says, 'Wait a minute. This is not what I want and you're not the guy I fell in love with!'"

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 52


    There's also another one that comes from the Making Of ROTS book, but I have sadly lost it. I had a bit of a crash a few weeks ago. I was able to save most of the quotes, but lost a few. This is just one allusion.


    Lucas is not the same man at 61 as he was when he was 31. No one is. Speilberg said it best when he talked about making "Duel". He was naivee to try it in ten days and do it the way he did it. It worked, but he was lucky. Today, he knows that he cannot do it the exact same way and still have the same advantages that he did then. He acknowledges that the man he was then was capable of telling "Duel", "Jaws" and "Close Encounters Of The Third Kind". The man that he is today is capable of telling "Saving Private Ryan" and "Schindler's List". But the man of today couldn't do it then and the man of yesteryear is not the same man of today. It's the same with Lucas then and now.

    Lucas didn't want Vader to be the murderer. That is why he left it as something that is based in the realm of fantasy. Of grim fairy tale endings. Symbolic and even metaphysical. Or more aptly put, metaphorical. That's why Lucas went with the broken heart and lost will. He can pull emotional strings that are more appropriate than murder most foul. The true tragedy is that she dies because she has lost her husband to the Dark Side, rather than he just inflicted injuries that proved to be fatal. Lucas wanted to have some sympathy for Vader in the end. Inflicted injuries did not do it for him. Broken heart did.
  6. Anni_Padme Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2005
    star 1
    I think that the way Padmé's death was handled was to underscore themes of Greek tragedy in the story of Revenge of the Sith. If you know of the story of Oedipus, you might know what I'm talking about.

    When Oedipus was born, his parents discovered, from the Oracle, a prophecy saying that their son would kill his father and marry his mother. To prevent this, they abandoned him on the hillside and he was eventually brought up by farmers. Grown up Oedipus (unaware he is adopted) also visits the Oracle and discovers the same prophecy, fleeing his town to be away from his parents so as to never fulfill the prophecy. He gets in a fight with a man on the road and kills him, unaware that this is his real father. He then ends up falling in love with and marrying the man's widow, Jocasta, his mother, thus unknowingly fulfilling the prophecy. When Jocasta discovers the truth, she hangs herself and Oedipus eventually blinds himself. It's a very popular Greek tragedy myth and bears some significance on the story of Padmé and Anakin I think.

    Anakin has prophetic dreams of Padme's death and vows to prevent it from happening at all costs. He basically ends up making a deal with the devil in order to save her, and in that fatal decision, he causes Padmé's heart to break from the loss of her husband to the dark side, and, in turn, her death. The gift of foresight is both a blessing and a curse. Oedipus tried his best to avoid fulfilling the prophecy and that's exactly what drove him towards doing exactly that. It's the same with Anakin; his efforts to save Padmé are what drove her to death.

    See, if Anakin had simply killed Padmé with the force choke, the aspect of tragedy would be lost. It's in Padmé's broken heart that this theme of tragedy is brought to the surface, and while this mirroring may not be what GL intended, it's the way I interpret, and will continue to interpret, Padmé's end.
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Exactly. It's interesting to note that Lucas is familiar with the story. There is a Jocosta there and in AOTC.
  8. yankee8255 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    I have no problem with wanting to make her death more tragic. There are two problems, though: First, anakin is no less responsible for her death than if he had killed her by choking. I don't think you disagree with this, but clearly others do, including Lucas. Second, it's one thing for Jocasta to hang herself, another for Padme to "lose the will to live/die of a broken heart" with nothing more. We'd certainly expect more form the mother of the twins.
  9. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    "The true tragedy is that she dies because she has lost her husband to the Dark Side, rather than he just inflicted injuries that proved to be fatal. Lucas wanted to have some sympathy for Vader in the end. Inflicted injuries did not do it for him. Broken heart did."

    The truest words spoken to date about Padme. Great post, sinister.

    " Anakin has prophetic dreams of Padme's death and vows to prevent it from happening at all costs. He basically ends up making a deal with the devil in order to save her, and in that fatal decision, he causes Padmé's heart to break from the loss of her husband to the dark side, and, in turn, her death. The gift of foresight is both a blessing and a curse. Oedipus tried his best to avoid fulfilling the prophecy and that's exactly what drove him towards doing exactly that. It's the same with Anakin; his efforts to save Padmé are what drove her to death.

    See, if Anakin had simply killed Padmé with the force choke, the aspect of tragedy would be lost. It's in Padmé's broken heart that this theme of tragedy is brought to the surface, and while this mirroring may not be what GL intended, it's the way I interpret, and will continue to interpret, Padmé's end."


    Absolutely.

    You know, out of all of this, I think Lucas could've saved himself a bit of this reaction toward her character if while sitting in her apartment or on the verandah, he had Padme doing office work of something, instead of her seemingly sitting aroung. But again, that could be his way of saying that Padme must keep her secret life a secret totally from all. She may have decided this herself. Maybe she felt it was too risky to be out in public all the time. Who knows?
  10. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
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    sinister and jumpman rule the thread [face_devil]
  11. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    The more and more I think about Padme's character in Episode III, the more I'm pleased with Lucas' decision on her.

    She serves the story very well and she has the most tragic ending. But, moreso than a character this time around, she's the last symbol of a dying age. But, she gives hope to the new era.
  12. Circle_Is_Complete Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 3
    " Just because a droid states Padme has lost the will to live doesn't make it so. She was dying for unknown reasons. Obi Wan makes a pretty good point in Episode 2 that if droids could think there wouldnt be any of us. Fact is the droids were bewildered and made the assumption that it was her own will giving up. I feel it points to something more; something connected to the force and the force empowered children. The droid was a creation of Lucas' but it doesn't absolutley define what he was trying to allude to in the nature of her end. For one thing she takes the time to name both of her children after struggling with all her energy to bring them int othe world. Then with her dying breath she takes the energy to tell Obi Wan that there is still good in Anakin."

    Also if you see the deleted scene with Obi-Wan in AOTC he takes the toxic dart in to be identified and the similar droids can't seem to find the answer. They DON"T reason. They can't. I dislike Padme's reason for death more then anything SW. Only though, in the way that they make many assume she dies by merely "giving up".

    To those saying Padme was strong Like Leia in TPM and AOTC merely for the fact she weilds and uses a gun or weapon is a strange concept. Are men stronger men because they go to war? Why should her character be thought more of because she generates a probable large income? To have the knowledge to afford the opprotunity to get a job such as her's would be a tribute to her intelligence and an overall nice thing. However I like to think the things that made Padme such a strong character were her beliefs. She believed in freedom and Democracy, Seemed baffled that slavery dare still existed and she fought and held strong to those beliefs. She had her OWN opinions and and thoughts and held fast to them. Only in the blindness of love did she compromise. THAT is a non-gender problem I think we can all agree [face_laugh]. When I think of Padme's strength as a character I like to look inward to the heart and soul of that character. She was in MANY ways stronger then Anakin. As for the Funeral I don't know what it represents to others but it was the most beautiful I saw her in the whole OT and was a VERY moving scene.
  13. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    in the funeral she indeed look gorgeous but she was also cold and not breathing anymore :_|:_|:_|:_|:_|
  14. Circle_Is_Complete Jedi Knight

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    May 20, 2005
    star 3
    True I guess I was referring more to Natalie with that remark. :-B
  15. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    In the casket she is made to look like Ophelia. (drowned with flowers)
  16. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    You might want to consider Othello as well. [face_thinking]

    Especially the scene on Mustafar.
  17. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    I wonder how much research Lucas did to tailor Padme's destiny after these Greek tragedies? I wonder if that was his thinking from the very beginning when he devoloped Padme through the Prequels.

    If people keep coming up with near the same conclusion when it comes to what her fate resembles, it seems that it can't be accident that it just happened this way.
  18. Greedo_forever Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2005
    star 3
    It seems to me that the crowd angry that Padme wasn't running around with a blaster are ALSO the same crowd that hates the fact that she "gave up" on her new born babies, that she was "thinking only of herself".

    Well, that is a bit of a paradox: so running around in combat and shoving people around IS taking in account one's unborn child(ren)? Does that not endanger her babies also?

    Why is it that people find that it is gender equality for a woman to act "macho"? macho to me is acting arrogant, aggresive, violent, domineering, and even condescending. I don't consider those qualities very admirable, even in men. Women can be strong and NOT macho.

    For me, Padmé willed herself to live LONG ENOUGH to give birth to her children and give them names. That's a lot to me, that's strength. And she wasn't abandoning them: she had Yoda, Obi Wan and Bail Organa around her.
  19. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
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    The interesting thing about Star Wars - and I didn?t ever really push this very far, because it?s not really that important - but there?s a lot going on there that most people haven?t come to grips with yet. But when they do, they will find it?s a much more intricately made clock than most people would like to imagine.

    ~George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, ?Star Wars: The Last Battle,? Vanity Fair, 2005


    MOYERS: Joseph Campbell once said all the great myths, the ancient great stories, have to be regenerated in every generation. He said that's what you are doing with Star Wars. You are taking these old stories and putting them into the most modern of idioms, the cinema. Are you conscious of doing that? Or are you just setting out to make a good action-movie adventure?

    LUCAS: With Star Wars I consciously set about to re-create myths and the classic mythological motifs. I wanted to use those motifs to deal with issues that exist today. The more research I did, the more I realized that the issues are the same ones that existed 3,000 years ago. That we haven't come very far emotionally.

    Of Myth And Men
    A conversation between Bill Moyers and George Lucas on the meaning of the Force and the true theology of Star Wars
    Time Magazine, April 1999
  20. YYZ-2112 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    Thanks for taking the time to show a source Darth Sinister. Although I wholeheartedly agree this shows Padme's emotional turmoil, it doesn't in conclusively tie that state of emotional pain to her death. Her death doesn't seem to begin to occur until the birthing process begins.

    While I respect those who feel that Lucas intended to have Padme die of a broken heart, I truly feel that it is a case of looking for the obvious and not taking into account that the Star Wars fantasy embodies a mystical energy field called the force and that it has a mysterious and sometimes surprising affect on the chain of events.

    Excellent point! And mostly what I'm driving at.

    I don't know if this reflects how you personally feel about Padme's end but to me personally, I feel like she struggled with everything she had to stay alive but the struggle was too much for her. The will that was lost in my mind is that of the Midichlorians or something inherent to the force and the nature of her children. It leads to the conclusion that Anakin despite his backward efforts was correct in that he saw the outcome clearly but failed because he couldn't accept it. It's not so much that Anakin brought all of this into fruition by breaking her heart. But that he couldn't accept the will of the force and so turned against it and joined the Sith.

    This leads to Luke's own revelation when after defeating Vader gazes upon his own artificial hand and sees that like his father, he can be pushed to do what is evil to save those he cares for; Leia in this case. Once Luke comes to that realisation, he's willing to accept the death of his friends if it's the will of the force. And in doing so discovers Sidious' strategy and conquers it.
  21. Circle_Is_Complete Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 3
    It seems to me that the crowd angry that Padme wasn't running around with a blaster are ALSO the same crowd that hates the fact that she "gave up" on her new born babies, that she was "thinking only of herself".



    Why is it that people find that it is gender equality for a woman to act "macho"? macho to me is acting arrogant, aggresive, violent, domineering, and even condescending. I don't consider those qualities very admirable, even in men. Women can be strong and NOT macho.


    I agree, and if men in certain situations take less physical approaches to conflicts they are belittled and given a hard time for trying to resolve it calmly through rational. But that is off topic.

    LUCAS: With Star Wars I consciously set about to re-create myths and the classic mythological motifs. I wanted to use those motifs to deal with issues that exist today. The more research I did, the more I realized that the issues are the same ones that existed 3,000 years ago. That we haven't come very far emotionally.


    Sad that this is pretty much true.


    And back on subject if you think about it Anakin, the male of the story is the weaker of the two. Obi-Wan and Padme are the characters who show strength.
  22. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    Anakin's actions led to his dreams coming true though, in the end. Had Anakin not gone down this path, Padme wouldn't have fallen so tragically.
  23. RogueScribner Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
    Your perception is incorrect. I really dislike Padmé's death. It does seem that we are meant to believe she died of a broken heart or lost the will to live. It just seems a little farfetched, especially in light of the fact that a) there was nothing physically wrong with her and b) she was giving birth at the time. So Anakin broke her heart, boo hoo. She just birthed two babies! Is she so selfish as to leave their fates to others? She doesn't wish to live for them? She just gives up? Weak.

    That being said, I am not of the opinion that Padmé should have been running around with a blaster in this movie. That wouldn't make any sense. She's pregnant! And it's a secret pregnancy at that. Padmé in all three movies was a fighter. She was highly idealistic and would only get pushed so far before trying to push back. Her relationship with Anakin clouded her view in ROTS and by the time she realized she needed to push back (approaching the Chancellor, getting with likeminded Senators to form an opposition) it was much too late. I don't have a problem with this. Not in the least. I wish her activist role was played up a little more in the theatrical cut and not left to the deleted scenes, but it was there and sufficient considering what else was going on in the movie.

    No, my only beef with her is her death. So please don't assume everyone who has a dissenting opinion are all alike. People like things for different reasons and people dislike things for different reasons. Painting everyone in the same group only makes it easier to criticize and dismiss out of hand, but it's not accurate.
  24. G-FETT Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    Thats right Jumpman, Anakin's cause's both their downfalls with his own actions. If Anakin hadn't turned, Padme wouldn't have died. He makes his win nightmares come true.

    As for whether Lucas "betrayed" Padme, I say definatly no! In ROTS Padme's focus has changed, but just because someone is a wife and mother doesn't mean they aren't strong. Padme shows great stregnth when she goes to Mustafar and tries to fight to save Anakin, but eventually she has to accept that she can't follow him down the "dark path" and she steps away from him - That decision alone took terrific strength - Whatever happened, she was not prepared to rule the Empire wth him.

    As for her death, thats really a seperate issue. I believe she shared a symbiotic relationship with Anakin, that meant when Anakin "died" it became inevitable that she would would die too.
  25. YYZ-2112 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
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    This is a justified view and while I don't wholy disagree, it's interesting that Lucas used fragemtns of the dream that don't mesh exactly with what we see in the end of the film. Perhaps this was just Lucas keeping the different time frames creative without rehashing the same footage. However consider that in the dreams Anakin hears Padme crying "Anakin help me" and then later see Obi Wan saying "Save your strength". Niether of these shots were used in the birthing sequence when Padme actually dies. So those images could theoretically be from a different path if Anakin had made that choice. Perhaps that's what would have occured if Anakin had done nothing? ie the same end just slightly different.
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