Did Lucas betray Padme?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Jumpman, Nov 14, 2005.

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  1. Greedo_forever Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2005
    star 3
    Wait a minute, I'm digressing but, are you saying that having babies is forgetting to be human? Or being female is forgetting to be human? What do you mean by that?

    Motherhood (or fatherhood for that matter) is an unnatural thing to you?

    I tend to agree that female roles often "fall in love" in stories, but that is a societal thing. The public LIKES songs, movies and other media about ROMANCE. I personally don't, but that is besides the point. The story HAD to involve a pregnant female character. Maybe if there had been less crying on her part, people wouldn't complain as much. But Anakin cries in the film too...
  2. Circle_Is_Complete Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 3
    I think the are just saying the a lot of female characters can be written one dimensionally. Like that their whole purpose when written into the script was to have children. The irony is that to Lucas that IS all he knew about the character of Padme in the beginning of the saga. When writing the back story for the characters I don't think he had much for Padme. I personally like what he did with her for the most part. So many people try to portray strong female characters as a GI Jane type and go over board with it. He found a happy medium. She was well rounded. She was strong, capable of taking care of herself both physically and emotionally and she was intelligent and caring with a good career. That is not just "having a baby". She was in no way 1-dimesional.
  3. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    "The part that I had never really developed is the death of Luke and Leia's mother. I had a back story for her in earlier drafts, but it basically didn't survive. When I got to JEDI, I wanted one of the kids to have some kind of memory of her because she will be a key figure in the new episodes I'm writing."

    --George Lucas, Star Wars-The Return Of The Jedi: Annotated Screenplay, 1997


    Lucas didn't have much for Padme. She was just there to have the kids and be dead by the time the story begins.
  4. GaryGygax Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2005
    star 1
    I don't know, she was my least favorite Star Wars character from the get go. While Portman's totally incompetant acting didn't help any, not did the banal lines she was forced to read, her character seemed to be made up as the story goes along: one minute she is royalty, (which made sense, as her daughter was a princess), next she was "an elected queen" (whatever the hell that is); one minute she is a strong leader, the next she loses the will to live; one minute she doesn't trust Palpatine because she feels he is ambitious and power hungry, the next she forgives Anakin for being ambitious and power hungry. She is just a poorly thought out character who Lucas didn't spend much time thinking about. She is filler for story problems that need filling, not much more.
  5. Fat_Bird Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2005
    star 2
    Exactly. All she was there for was to have Luke and Leia and die.
  6. Jedi-Queen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "Exactly. All she was there for was to have Luke and Leia and die"

    I wouldn't diminish her character that far.
    She was also the catalyst for Ani's turn to the darkside
    which is the most important part of the SW story - the
    evolution of Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader.
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    If you pay attention in TPM, she's always been elected queen. Rather than having just royal bloodlines, Lucas opted for elected monarchies as well. It shows us how different Padme is from Palpatine. And she forgives Anakin because she loves him. She doesn't love Palpatine.
  8. Circle_Is_Complete Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 3

    To say one minute she is this and one minute that sounds schizophrenic but if you follow the movies closely things lead to her different actions. She has reasons. I wouldn't say she forgives Anakin from being power hungry. In AOTC she is disturbed by his political ideals when they begin to discuss the topic. It is visually displayed on her face until he laughs it off. As far as his personal greed I always took it as if she put up with it. She knew it was one of his faults and as Sinister said you put up with people more when you love them, You overlook shortcomings and even put up with habits you normally wouldn't.

    This is just MY OWN personal feeling but I think Natalie Portman did well in ROTS as it was here first chance to show emotional range if not even emotion at all. She was working with what she was given.
  9. colivo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2004
    star 3



    I totally agree, I think the biggest miscalculation from Lucas's character development was making Padme die from losing the will to live. It just totally contradicts how her character is portrayed in the first two movies, and also contradicts her daughter being a leader in the OT.

    If Lucas would have just let her die, and we can always speculate, was it from childbirth, was it from falling when she was unconscious, or was it from being force-choked by Anakin. All of them are plausible, and it would have kept her character strong.

    Also, why would she say at the end, "There is still good in him." and then die on her own terms? If she knew he could be brought back, and she just had twins, don't you think she would stick around alittle while? Poor writing.
  10. yankee8255 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    and it shows.
  11. Nordom Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Hi all,

    With Padme I feel that she was not a very strong character in her own right, that she was too tied up with other characters and not independent enough. A character can be very tied up with the plot or other characters but at the same time be strong enough or indpendent enough to stand on their own.

    To be a little blunt she exists for two reason, to give birth to Luke and Leia and to give Anakin a reason to fall. But both are mostly about other people and not herself. What did Padme have that was truly hers?

    She does belive in the senate and there is some stuff in the films but lots more were cut and some of that was quite good character stuff. In TPM she is the most independent while in clones she is both the plot device in that someone is trying to kill her and she is Anakins love interest. In Sith she is even weaker, she is very much a reason for Anakin to fall and not much more.
    And once Anakin has fallen and Luke and Leia are born, poof she dies.

    Regards
    Nordom
  12. SHAD0W-JEDI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3

    I want to say up-front that if any of this comes off as "Lucas-bashing", it is not INTENDED to, nor meant in that spirit. I am (obviously!) a big fan of SW, and have enjoyed the movies immensely.

    I think that the Anakin/Padme relationship was a lot more... complicated... than many of us would have suspected when we just heard of Anakin's 'evolution' in broad terms. As presented in the three "prequel" movies, I think you can make a pretty good case that, with the best of intentions, Padme reinforced a lot of Anakin's negative traits... In no way am I taking the focus off of Anakin - ultimately, whatever his temptations, trials and difficulties, HE makes the choices that lead to his fall! - but Padme, in my view, is too willing to go along with the qualities in Anakin that contribute to his fall. Motivated by her love for Anakin, she excuses his vengneance-inspired violence, his temper, and becomes his accomplice in dishonesty. She KNOWS better on an intellectual level - she as much as says that living a lie would destroy them both, and she is right! - but she gives in anyway. I know some find this to be romantic. I think it is sad.

    That being said, in ROTS, Padme begins to face some of the practical consequences of all these choices. I think that, in this movie, Padme has her FINEST hours... because it is in this movie that she shows moral strength. Not by running around with a blaster or fighting in an arena, but by taking a hard look at where the Republic is going, where Anakin is going, and realizing that as much as she might wish it otherwise, she cannot simply "go along".

    Where I think Lucas ran into problems is in handling her final confrontation with Anakin, and its aftermath. Padme's heart truly IS breaking when she confronts Anakin and finally has her eyes fully opened to what he has become. It is a devastating moment. When Anakin Force-chokes her, it is the final, terrible moment of truth. Having her die of a broken heart after this makes, I would argue, perfect sense...

    EXCEPT... for the bit about having her talk about there still being good in Anakin.

    Because that is a sentiment of HOPE. It implies she believes Anakin can still be saved. That he is worth fighting for. That he can STILL be redeemed, brought back...to repeat, that he can be SAVED.

    So why does she give up?

    That doesn't ring true for me. If Padme DIDN'T express that idea, her passing away WOULD make sense, I think. She has had her heart broken. She has realized that she lived a lie for years, that her choices helped bring her and Anakin to this end.. and that the galaxy may have to deal with the consequences. That for all her love of Anakin... he could not be saved from his darker impulses. Under this crushing realization, this terrible betrayal, and Anakin's physical assault, she dies.

    But if she believes Anakin is still worth fighting for?

    It just doesn't ring true for me. Not a "spoiling" moment - I think her death is still very touching and the movie, overall, has a lot of emotional power - but one that I would have loved to have seen tweaked...

    Shadow
  13. yankee8255 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    Essentially, she's more a plot device than a character in her own right.
  14. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Leia was a princess because her adopted mother was the Queen of Alderaan, not because of Padme... though it fits nicely.

    Padme was a plot device, but to be fair, so was Obi-Wan at times. But Padme filled the archetypical role of catalyst to the hero's fall. Every tragic hero has one. But on top of her relationship with Anakin was the subplot of the Senate and the future rebellion. Perhaps her character was stretched a little thin, as Lucas cut most of Senate scenes in RotS and family stuff in AotC. But I still thought she was fairly well done. She went through quite a lot of personal changes through the 3 films and I believed that by RotS she was so caught up with Anakin that she didn't realize what was happening with him. The scene on Mustafar was brilliant, probably the best showcase of her character in the 3 films. And to me it was exactly where her character needed to be.
  15. sithrules70 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    so that quote means that leia is in fact remembering padme ??!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?:eek:

    yippie !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    [face_dancing][face_dancing][face_dancing][face_dancing][face_dancing]
  16. LLL Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2000
    star 4
    Should he have made her more stronger by opposing Palpatine more?

    Well, he did ...

    ... but then he CUT IT ALL OUT OF THE FILM!!!

    Poor Natalie. Her best moments always end up on George's cutting room floor!!!

    (Thank God for DVD extras!)
  17. YYZ-2112 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    And that's my point. She was portrayed as this strong independent character. She is shown to often put her own agenda aside in the cause of others. The recapturing of Naboo from the Trade Federation was the first major event (a nice comparison to Haile Selassie I recapturing of Ethiopia from the Italian Fascists led by Musolini in WWII .. spelling?) Then she supports Anakin's desire to rescue Obi Wan by helping him bend the rules of his mandate. She also served as a Senator at the request of the Queen who replaced her. When she learns of her own demise according to Anakin she concerns herself with the baby. She consoles Anakin in his darkest hour after his rampage from the loss of his mother and tries to understand his perspective and see the humanity of his error. On her deathbed, she doesn't reach out in fear or worry for her own sake; she concerns herself with birthing her children, naming them and then defending the father who just failed in the most horrible way. She does this because she recognises that the dark side twisted his mind in trying to save her. See, she knows why he did what he did, the others do not and never really did.

    Now after all of this someone wants to convince me that she died because she lost the will to live? This is totally against the grain of her character, which is why I feel it is absurd. But there it is, spoken by a DROID.

    So really ...... what's more likely:

    That Padme's death was simply thrown together and that her death being counter to what we know of her is in fact the truth because George Lucas; a film pioneer with over 30 years experience in film crafting and storytelling under his belt; a well studied student of Joseph Campbell's works on myth and the hero's journey who himself called Lucas his greatest student; simply dropped the ball and gave Padme the worst possible ending, leaving a huge void in what could easily be a series that outlives even my grandkids.

    OR

    That the idea that Padme "dies of a broken heart" is just the opineonated incorrect interpretation of an audience who didn't look beneath the surface. This interpretation being an ending based soley on her dialogue "Anakin, you're breaking my heart" and a droids dialogue "She has lost the will to live" both of which being taken out of context and connected to each other. This coupled with the fact that she has NO PHYSICAL HEALTH PROBLEMS at the time of her passing. In addition she herself makes no claim that
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Padme went from a strong, independent woman to what she is in ROTS. It's the side effect of marrying Anakin and giving so much love to him, that when he betrays her like he does, it's too much for her. He trades her independence for co-dependence. She can't imagine a world without her husband. That's why she's like she is. She loves too much and Anakin's turn sends her sprialing out of control.
  19. WolfEgo5 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2005
    When I watch ROTS I watch scenes 1-14, change to disc 2 and watch the 3 rebellion scenes, then change back and watch scenes 15-50. Those three deleted scenes seem too important to the character of Padme for me personally to leave them out of the story when I watch them. Nothing I can really do about her losing the will to live. One of my only problems with the saga is the treatment of Padme, and how many of her important character scenes were cut out of episodes II and III.
  20. Circle_Is_Complete Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 3
    I decided to do the same when showing friends the film.
  21. lorn_zahl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2002
    star 4
    I don't think Lucas betrayed Padme one bit, she was a bad mofo in both TPM and AOTC.


    What's wrong with chilling out when your about to give birth? sheesh


  22. Darth_Zoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2002
    star 4
    It's unfortunate we didn't see more of Padme and the political side but the movie would have been too long. I'm glad we have AotC for the political/action hero Padme. RotS is for the scared pregnant side of Padme.
  23. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    I think GL didn't serve women well by having Padme be this weak. And she's not!

    I think it's because GL finds mothers disposable. He often mentions his kids never needed a mother. I don't agree. He does have a whole extended family that has always been near/with his kids, and they are a loving bunch. Most families are not billionaires. Mothers are all many ordinary children have in terms of unconditional love.

    I look at Padme's OOC end as many factors coming together.

    First of all, she is under tons of stress. She's feeling stung by the end of her world. She's hiding a pregnancy. She's not seen her husband for months, and she in madly in love with him. He comes back and then turns to the darkside, raping her ideals and values, and then he chokes her, knocking her out, and then she knows when Obi-wan comes back, that he's dead. She has lost everything, is under too much physical strain, and pregnant women can have heart problems. I think the combination of being abused by Anakin, watching his miserable descent into madness, and her whole purpose in life going away professionaly, made her heart give out. There's nothing left for her, and she's also bonded to Anakin, so his pain might have crossed over to her.

    Too overwhelming for her, who's had to put up a false front for months, and is physically, hormonally, emotionally and spiritually crushed.
  24. YYZ-2112 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    I have no problem buying into this line of logic; except that she was already dying in a state of perfect health. The droid is quite clear in that medically she was healthy which is why they didn't understand what was happening since she was dying. Obi Wan is also shocked most likely because he's watching the situation progress and this comes at him from left field.

    If the droid had said anything remotely suggesting that her heart is failing to sustain her or that her stress levels have overloaded her heart or brain pathways etc, then I could buy into that. But their only explanation is that she has lost the will to live. I could also buy into this if she demonstated this as well, but naming her kids and defending the father with her last breath isn't the characteristic of one who has given up but the characteristic of one losing a struggle. And consider that the film suggests that she developed a sense of being able to feel Anakin's feelings perhaps through the midichlorians of her unborn children. Giving birth would sever that connection. Who knows what kind of impact that would have with something as alien as the force in the mix. The film is very clear in that it says one thing but shows another.

    I think Lucas said somewhere that he's a show me don't tell me type of film maker, but don't take that as a quote because I can't back it up.
  25. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    good posts, yyz (can't remember the rest of your name :p

    i like the poetry of her death, actually. and i don't buy the broken heart and subsequent lost will either. i think she dies of her own volition. because she can go. does that make sense? she gives all to her kids and she wants to make sure that she delivers this last message to obi-wan.
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