PT Did Lucas go too far in Revenge of the Sith?

It's not all that different from how the Jedi and Sith view each other in the OT. That the other must be destroyed to guarantee each Order's own survival.

The children were harmless in the short term, that's the evil part, where Vader is selling his soul. The logic in the Sith's minds is that they would become a huge threat to the security of the galaxy in the future. Think of Vader and the Emperor discussing Luke in ESB. Just one Jedi's existence brought down the Empire after all.

Plus, cementing his loyalty to Palpatine meant he had to sever any ties to his old life, it is a test and initiation in some ways. Like Palpatine says "Do not hesitate. Show no mercy. Only then will you be strong enough in the dark side to save Padme."

It makes a lot more sense if you take into account the whole arc of the character, several quotes in ROTJ can explain Vader's motivations a bit more deeply, eg "You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my Master." and "It is too late for me, son." Several moments in ROTJ also reinforce that Vader believes in Palpatine's omniscience quite confidently, when Luke comes to Vader voluntarily as Sidious predicted and Vader states "Indeed you are powerful, as the Emperor has forseeen." it reinforces Vader's belief in what he is doing. It's just ironically what ultimately breaks his loyalty to The Emperor.

ROTS kind of plays into Vader's belief that the Sith are stronger, and that the stability they can bring is ultimately better for the galaxy. There are some hints at Anakin's adapting beliefs in the PT. Obi-Wan in his strict adherence to the Jedi way failing to defeat Dooku twice, then when Anakin tries fighting angrily he quite quickly overpowers him. AOTC Anakin commenting to Padme "someone wise" should lead the galaxy, then Palpatine dropping a hint in his description of his Master "Darth Plagueis the wise." and Palpatine's response to "Is it possible to learn this power?" with "Not from a Jedi." Obi-Wan later states in his farewell "I have taught you everything I know." but Anakin of course wants more.
Anakin hints at something imbued in him in his description of Palpatine when reporting his identity to Mace "Master, the Chancellor is very powerful. You're going to need my help if you are going to arrest him."

Vader believing in Order at any cost is quite extensively set up in the PT. Young Anakin's desire to help any people who need it is still tinged with some motivation to help those close to him. He wishes for he and his mother's freedom, and winning the podrace from a pov is to impress a girl he has a crush on, Padme, and help someone he can reflect his own aspirations to be a Jedi in, Qui-Gon. It is largely intended to be selfless, but it buys him his freedom from slavery.
The conflict really sets in in AOTC, Anakin still wants to help everyone, but he is developing the desire to fix things all himself. The risk of studying to be a Jedi hinted in the OT, having to be responsible for your power. There is of course a major turning point when Anakin fails to save someone he loves. He can't heed his mother's warning to "(Not) look back." The Jedi life is ultimately making him feel the powerless frustration he felt as a slave, which is exactly what he joined the Order to defeat.
There is some convergence in relevant quotes, Palpatine stating "There is no interest in the common good." to Padme in TPM, where Anakin earlier stated "Mom, you say the biggest problem in this universe is nobody helps each other." Anakin at a few points tellingly recites some of Palpatine's dialogue, for example during his "I have brought peace, justice, freedom, and security to my new Empire." rant on Mustafar.
Anakin's desire to control things increases exponentially over the course of the PT. The conflict against the Separatists is pretty ingrained in him for several reasons; The Jedi decided to train him after all specifically when he destroys the TF droid ship, he sees The Sith (Dooku) his sworn enemy as their leader, both Palpatine and the Jedi influence on Anakin their mutual desire to end the war through force, prolonged war means a threat to those close to him. There are just so many psychological reasons why Anakin would end up sacrificing so much to bring stability. The image of the Jedi as traitorous, while more just a point of view at first, becomes more rational or logical as he gets further experience with the dark side. Palpatine, while responsible for much of what has happened, is really the only one who cared enough to rescue Vader from the Mustafar lava-bank after the Jedi's perceived betrayal. It just seems there is a lot to set up that when the Rebels are gaining strength in ANH, and with the Jedi's re-emergence there would be little at this stage to hold Vader back from seeing them as a similar threat to stability to be quelled. He's forgotten himself, and things that would seem evil to him in the PT are fogged by the strong hold of the dark side, and blurred together with lesser evils to become almost meaningless. Imo, it is relatively consistent with how the Dark side was set up in the OT.

 

He is regretful...for a while. Then he moves on with his life as he was taught. But he holds on to power because he sees it as a means to an end. His whole life he has felt powerless. First as a slave, then as a Jedi and then as a Sith. So he seeks out the power to control things. To control people. He was wanting to rule the galaxy with Padme and bring order out of chaos. She's dead, but the dream is not. And so he stays with the dark side. He turns his anger outward, directing it at the surviving Jedi who would seek to undo what they've done. Then directing at the group of would be rebels who seek to destroy that which they've fought for. By the time of ANH, Vader has buried his guilt and remorse deep down. When we see him in ROTJ, he is starting to re-think things. The guilt comes through again.

An episode of "M*A*S*H*" featured a pilot who would deliver "payloads" without ever seeing the cost of what it was that he was doing. Not until he visits the 4077th and Hawkeye shows him the effects of his actions up close and personal. Seeing civilians, children at that, being burned and injured by shrapnel had changed his worldview. Actions have consequences and seeing it as either pushing a button, or igniting a Lightsaber, demonstrates that.

 

darth-sinister

Good point! The crew of the Enola Gay didn't see the results of the atom bomb dropped onto Hiroshima and simply pushed the release button. However, had they been handed out knives and been told to slit the throat of every woman and children they'd meet there, they'd surely declined. But Vader according to Lucas in ROTS?

 

Yes, because Anakin's already killed children in AOTC. Palpatine knows this and is counting on Anakin being so desperate enough to do it again, only with clear intent focus and not in the heat of the moment.

 

Sith Lord 2015

I'm getting tired of this as you just seem to be another one of those that didn't really pay attention to ANH. The whole idea to destroy Alderaan was Tarkin's idea, not Vader's!!! Look at the scene where Tarkin is about to make the suggestion and Vader already seems to "know" what he is about to propose (see how his head jerks around, even he can't believe that Tarkin seriously is about to propose that and the radio drama and/or novelization even had him state that the Emperor should be consulted, first).

And Tarkin's order to destroy Alderaan was relayed to Admiral Motti who relayed it to the firing crew. So Vader had no active part in the destruction of Alderaan and couldn't do anything about it, assuming that he'd wanted, because Tarkin was "holding Vader's leash". From his point of view, obvious from the novelization, they had destroyed a planet of "traitors".

But anyway, the public question of this thread is "Did Lucas go too far in Revenge of the Sith?" and I have given my answer: Yes, he crossed a line when Anakin / Vader butchered these children.

This was not the Vader I grew up with since 1978 and I'm confident that the young George Lucas would have tried to talk the old one out of featuring such a scene.

 

Don't bring anything regarding the books. What goes on films, are there as proper evidence.

Vader tortured his daughter, same with han and froze him, killed rebels because he was angry and didn't get his way, obsessive over Luke in ESB etc..

It doesn't matter if Vader didn't like the planet being blown up. He did other stuff that was just a evil.

 

I concur wholeheartedly and never claimed that he was just a misunderstood victim of circumstance (on the contrary I would have loved to see him stand trial and answer for his actions) but never got the impression from the OT that he was capable of such malicious evil as shown in ROTS.

 

You're welcome!

Well, it is 19 years later. But I guess we can agree to disagree here.

 

Don't worry, I did pay attention to ANH. It might have been Tarkin's idea but Vader went along with it. Did he even once voice one single objection? He would have had he been against it. On the DS he may have been somehow "outranked" by Tarkin (the exact ranking order was not made clear in the movie), but certainly was not afraid of him. He objected to Tarkin's order to have Leia executed immediately, remember? And Tarkin listened to him. Had Vader given a halfway plausible reason for postponing Alderaan's destruction Tarkin very likely would have listened to him as well. And then there are the sequels, where Vader is revealed to be second in command right after the Emperor himself. I ask you again, how are the things he does in the OT in any way less evil? Trying to kill your own son??? That is not evil to you? We see no children in the OT (apart from Ewoks), so that element is removed. Let's just assume the DS had somehow survived and Tarkin removed from command, leaving Vader in charge. Are you suggesting Vader would have hesitated from using it again on other planets? Do you think the fact that millions of children are killed in the process would have changed his mind? Do you think he would have somehow ordered the evacuation of all children before blowing up the planet? And forget about the DS. We know that Star Destroyers alone are capable of causing a lot of destruction to a planet's surface, probably multiple times as powerful as our earth's nuclear bombs combined. We don't see it directly in the movies but can assume the star fleet was busy destroying other worlds that did not obey the Empire. I am sure the whole fleet was not made only to hunt down a few rebels. They had lots of planets to control. Again, children were most certainly killed at some point during the civil war in the OT, and likely with Vader's full knowledge or on his direct orders. I don't know where your good guy image of Vader in the OT comes from. But to me it was clear the he was capable or committing pretty much any conceivable cruel and inhumane act.

I never got the impression from the OT to the contrary. Please provide some examples that show Vader to be less evil than he is in ROTS. Otherwise impressions are all we have here, not facts.

Both in ESB and ROTJ it is clear that Vader would very knowingly have killed his own son, on several occasions. To me killing your own children is a lot worse. In ROTS we can at least argue that he acted under orders plus wanted to save Padme. In the OT he hunted Luke for his own reasons. The Emperor didn't really seem that interested. In the ESB opening text we learn Vader is "OBSESSED with finding young Skywalker". So he acted for is own reasons. Nowhere is it said that he acted reluctantly and just following orders. Anyone can have whatever impression we get from the movies. But if you are so sure that the Vader we see in ROTS is so much different from the OT one in character it would be nice if you would back that up with facts from the movies.​

 

Sith Lord 2015 wrote

Don't worry, I did pay attention to ANH.

Please forgive me that I'm not really convinced, because

It might have been Tarkin's idea but Vader went along with it. Did he even once voice one single objection? He would have had he been against it. On the DS he may have been somehow "outranked" by Tarkin (the exact ranking order was not made clear in the movie), but certainly was not afraid of him. He objected to Tarkin's order to have Leia executed immediately, remember? And Tarkin listened to him.

TARKIN She lied! She lied to us!

VADER I told you she would never consciously
betray the Rebellion.

TARKIN Terminate her... immediately!

Tarkin pushes a button and responds to the intercom buzz.

TARKIN Yes.

VOICE (over intercom)
We've captured a freighter entering
the remains of the Alderaan system.
It's markings match those of a ship
that blasted its way out of Mos
Eisley.

VADER They must be trying to return the
stolen plans to the princess. She
may yet be of some use to us.

Vader didn't object, he merely suggested that Tarkin should wait because he realized that a possible rescue attempt and escape of the princess could actually lead them to the hidden Rebel base (and apparently he made sure they'd successfully escape...).

Now, since according to Palpatine "good is a point of view" the same applies for "evil", IMHO. You are essentially saying he is really evil because he didn't prevent Alderaan from being destroyed. Theoretically I'd be the first to agree, but practically our legal systems make a distinction between

• the person who gives the order (and assumes full responsibility)
• the person who follows the order and executes it (does that person exceed the actual order?)
• the person who is in the same room when the order is issued (but doesn't interfere)

I ask you again, how are the things he does in the OT in any way less evil? Trying to kill your own son??? That is not evil to you?

Although Vader is an evil character, I believe there are different levels of evil that have to be taken into account. But where was Vader deliberately trying to kill his son in the OT? In ANH he was trying to shoot down an enemy pilot (he couldn't know it was Luke, actually I would almost have expected some gratitude from Vader that Solo stopped him from making a crucial mistake) and beyond that he was only trying to turn Luke to the dark side of the Force.

Regarding your other remarks, I've heard these before in 2005 when I discussed the issue with other fans: "Didn't you know he was a mass-murderer?"

To which I truthfully replied "No", because I could only know what he did based on what was actually revealed in the OT. Everything else is conjectural assumption at the expense of the accused.

Apparently Lucas decided to deliver the proof with ROTS, however I never understood why Lucas then didn't feel it right and appropriate to withdraw all the Darth Vader merchandise, because "playing Anakin Childkiller in school, isn't cool" - anymore.

 

Why believe Palpatine?

 

Iron_lord

Because when he's right, he's right. I still think that Kenobi's "truth from a certain point of view" (amazing that Sir Alec Guiness didn't protest saying that) constitutes gobbledygook.

If Car A slammed into Car B we might have different witnesses and different locations (points of view) but truthfully they will all report that Car A slammed into Car B. Truth isn't relative, IMHO.

The moral concept of good or evil is something completely different. What constitutes "evil"? I'd say that the moment you advance at the expense of somebody else already constitutes an "evil act" but I'm certain that there are plenty of people who'd disagree with me and raise the bar instead.

 

It is a very common storytelling trope to have anti-heroes "sacrifice the innocent few, to save the many". Or villains sacrifice innocents to save their loved ones or themselves.

If Vader genuinely believes that "If the Jedi are not destroyed down to the last youngling, it will be civil war without end" - then he's covered.

 

The absolute irony here is, of course, that if he really wanted to end the civil war he had the historic opportunity just to do so the moment he witnessed the fate of Mace Windu...

 

A villain can never be too dark. It showed in such a awesome way how the dark side will change you. I'd hate if George limited himself to making a movie just for kids. Star wars has always been a movie for everyone. If kids can't see killing in films or any darkness then they're bubblewrapped minds will be traumatized when an eventual real tragic event happens to them.

It'd be like rod and todd from the simpsons.....those 2 kids would go INSANE if they saw a real life shooting in front of them, or their repressed psychies would snap if some girl they liked offered them booze and then they turned into a alcoholic......you can't repressed kids and over pretect em. It's why you need nurturing love AND tough love to raise a kid in a healthy balanced way.

This film didn't go to far, really George did it perfectly. I always felt like I'd love star wars being MORE dark. (Think The Joker from batman only Mark Hammil wouldn't be playing the psycho nut this time )


EDIT-Also gotta say this. Anakin (when he was Vader) killed kids in episode 3.
Episode 4-Vader just sits and watch the destruction of AN ENTIRE PLANET.

I think that's much worse. ESPECIALLY when you realize, not only did he HELP it happen. But he could have easily prevented it. It's not like Tarkin's gonna take down vader.....
And he had no intention to stop there......

 

I'm of the belief there were far too many Jedi who were creating the unbalance in the force. The Chosen One was created by the force to bring balance. Everything Anakin did, did bring balance to the force. I don't see it as his choice, more like his destiny.

 

PHIERY Was up Phires. You have to hang in the Social Club sometimes. Always enjoy your posts.

 

I'm afraid to dip my toe in there Del. Things could get really weird

 

Well at the very least, drop in once in awhile You're an important poster to this community.

 

Sure he tried to turn him to the dark side, but failing that would not have hesitated to kill Luke. He only gave him several chances to change his mind. When that didn't happen during their last duel he stood aside and let the emperor kill Luke, until at the last possible moment he saved him. He made it very clear that Luke had no other options, it was either the dark side or death, period. There is nothing to indicate "there is still good in him" previous to that point in the whole OT. Do you think Vader would just have walked away with an "OK, have it your way then" after the duel on Bespin. Sure, in ANH Luke was just another enemy pilot to Vader. But I was referring to ESB and ROTJ, where he knows Luke is his son. If his top priority had been to keep Luke alive you don't have a (potentially deadly) lightsaber duel with him. Vader could have called some storm troopers and have Luke captured, keeping him in a cell until he was ready to turn to the dark side. That would have been no problem on Bespin. Luke had nowhere to run had Vader decided to take him prisoner. Gratitude? At the end of ANH??? You can't be serious. Vader would not have felt any remorse for Luke's death previous to the end of ROTJ.

And where in the OT are we given the impression that he is anything other than a mass murderer, besides at the end of Jedi when he turned to good again? During the time of the OT Vader didn't have to do any killing himself anymore, he had his troops for that. Does that make him less evil? How about Hitler? We all agree he was a mass murderer, right? Did he actually personally kill anyone? Not that I know of. So technically he was not really a murderer, and therefore "less evil" by your logic. Ordering others to kill is just as evil as doing it yourself. But that's just my opinion of course.
And let's not forget that within 5 minutes after Vader is first introduced we see him choking the ship's captain to death with his own hands. He could just as well have taken him prisoner. So Lucas made pretty sure there is no doubt what Vader is capable of, and that he IS a murderer. Not once in the first two movies was there any ambiguity about his character. He was the bad guy, period.
And let's not fool ourselves about his reasons for keeping Luke alive. Never once did he want to "save" Luke or consider his feelings. He acted purely and selfishly for his own motives, to overthrow the emperor and become more powerful. Power for himself was his only agenda, not a family reunion.

 

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I would move the first time Vader even cares to the end of ESB. Luke actually refusing to join him surprises him and makes him think.

 

Which ignores what "Star Wars" is about. People have a destiny, but they can choose to follow it or not. The Sith say it is Luke's destiny to become a Sith, but we know that is not true.



He chose to become a Jedi by not killing his father out of anger and hate and is now a great Jedi Master. Anakin had a choice to stay or leave Tatooine to become a Jedi. He chose to leave. He had a choice to kill Palpatine or to protect him so that he could keep Padme alive. He chose to betray the Jedi. He chose to betray Palpatine to save Luke, rather than remain as a Sith. It was not Anakin's destiny that drove him to do great things or terrible things. His actions are of his own volition, not because he had no choice.

 

PALPATINE: "Can it be done?"

VADER: "He will join us or die, my Master."


VADER: "You are beaten. It is uselessto resist. Don't let yourself be destroyed as Obi-Wan did. There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you."


VADER: "You underestimate the power of the dark side. If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny."

At which point he tosses his saber at Luke to illustrate his point.



Vader makes it clear to Luke that there are only two ways this can go; join them or die.

 

Sith Lord 2015 wrote

And where in the OT are we given the impression that he is anything other than a mass murderer, besides at the end of Jedi when he turned to good again? During the time of the OT Vader didn't have to do any killing himself anymore, he had his troops for that. Does that make him less evil? How about Hitler? We all agree he was a mass murderer, right? Did he actually personally kill anyone? Not that I know of. So technically he was not really a murderer, and therefore "less evil" by your logic. Ordering others to kill is just as evil as doing it yourself. But that's just my opinion of course.

Giving orders that result in the death of non-combatants like women, children and elderly people, qualifies as "mass-murder", which is one of the reasons up to this day I still can't believe that the citizens of London accepted to have a memorial statue of "Butcher" Harris errected. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Arthur_Harris,_1st_Baronet

Now, where and when in the OT did Vader give such orders that qualify as "mass murder"? Should we agree that ordering troops in a military conflict to kill other troops qualifies as mass-murder, then I'd agree

And let's not forget that within 5 minutes after Vader is first introduced we see him choking the ship's captain to death with his own hands. He could just as well have taken him prisoner. So Lucas made pretty sure there is no doubt what Vader is capable of, and that he IS a murderer. Not once in the first two movies was there any ambiguity about his character. He was the bad guy, period.

Sorry, but in the scene you're describing my impression had always been that Vader lost his temper and that Captain Antilles' death qualifies as manslaughter or second-degree murder (same with the Tuskens in AotC, i.e. in both cases Vader didn't necessarily intend to kill from the beginning). But what he did to Admiral Ozzel and Captain Needa qualifies as murder, no doubt about that.

You act as if I were saying he wasn't a bad guy or evil. I never suggested either of these. But just because somebody is guilty of murder doesn't automatically imply that such person would also kill dozens of innocent people or children without having second thoughts.

Lucas decided Vader did in AotC, but that's not the Vader I grew up with, the villain I loved "to hate".

 

You all are!

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