PT Did Lucas go too far in Revenge of the Sith?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Garrett Atkins, Feb 13, 2013.

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  1. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Palpatine playing the kind old man for 13 years probably contributed to Anakin's inability to let go.
  2. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Palps probably nurtured his hunger for power, told him stuff like "You can achieve anything if you try hard". And in the end, Vader really could, except for healing his own body or earning the love of family members. Those are things you can't force through sheer willpower and might.
  3. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

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    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    Thats the other factor. How different would Anakin have turned out if he never met Palpatine?
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  4. rumsmuggler Chosen One

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    star 7
    He probably would have turned out just fine. Vader( or Anakin) had the love of his son, which helped him switch teams again and sacrifice his life to save Luke.
    Last edited by rumsmuggler, Feb 14, 2013
  5. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    So then we can assume the majority of his behavior, actions, and fall to the dark side would have been curbed if Palps hadn't manipulated him?
  6. Adrian the Cool Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 3
    No, Lucas didn't go to far in Revenge of the Sith. The only one going to far was Anakin Skywalker, but I guess it's all fiction (not sure), so who cares?
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  7. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    That's not what I am saying (although it's not impossible). I mean we're not debating whether Anakin did right or wrong, we're debating the circumstances. What I am saying is that the attacks of several adult Tuskens further fueled his anger (adrenalin) and prevented him from starting to think consciously again. The attacks prolonged the exceptional emotional circumstances.

    Let's just not forget and ignore that the Tuskens themselves do not follow law. Anakin couldn't go to Tatooine's public prosecutor's office and sue them. There was no (legal) way they could be brought to justice.
    Imagine there was a group in your home city that systemtically abducts, tortures and ultimately kills innocent civilists in your citiy and noone would or could do anything about it. There would be no police, no court, nothing. They could kill whoever they wanted without having to face the consequences.
    That's Tatoone. That's Anakin's situation. And that has to be taken into account. Imo, at least.

    Well he was certainly looking for power, but I can't see him going nearly as far as he did without his worries about Padmé's life. That certainly changed by the time they met again on Mustafar. He was completely consumed by the dark side at that point.

    Sure, he is a person who seeks control. He can't deal with the situation, he doesn't even fully understand it. He's powerless, yes.
    But what I primarily see after his mother's death ist horrbile pain and thoughts of revenge. And anger.

    Here, I just disagree.

    I'd say Anakin Skywalker was extremely labile and his life's circumstances made him dangerous.
  8. Zane the Reaper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 1
    Your post was excellent - especially this comment. I've honestly not thought much about the prequel Anakin's thoughts on his impending fatherhood, because (as you say) he seemed so ambivalent. But now that I think of it, my beef with the prequel-era Jedi is that they seem to encourage suppression and denial (which speaks to your "mental hospital" metaphor), and this particular ambivalent behavior can be read as yet another pathological result of all that unhealtly atmosphere.

    The prequel-era Jedi's philosophy of emotion is messed up and would be difficult (and unhealthy) for any human. For Anakin, who (it can be argued) is genetically programmed to be super-sensitive and passionate, it was a disaster. By the time he and Padme concieved Luke and Leia, he was ripe for the picking.

    Great posts and follow-up posts, Cryo. This kind of real, literary discussion is why I come here.
    Last edited by Zane the Reaper, Feb 14, 2013
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  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
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    @ Samnz

    He certainly didn't show much concern for what she wanted. She didn't want him to become a murderer for her. She didn't want him to betray everything she believed in.

    It was selfish desire that drove Anakin.

    Just like when he avenged his mothers death. Shmi certainly didn't want her son to become a mass murderer. By killing he betrayed her legacy.

    I don't think so. For the most part, the emotional isolation in the Jedi order is what screwed him up. He needed guidance and love, he got an emotionally stunted hypocrit as a teacher and a whole bunch of hypocrits as mentors. Under those circumstances, of course he was easy pickings for Palpatine.
    Plus, both Palpy and Anakin have strong narcisstic tendencies. That they are drawn to each other doesn't come as surprise.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Feb 14, 2013
  10. Zane the Reaper Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 5, 2012
    star 1
    ^
    That's my reading of the prequels as well.
  11. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    I wont lie. Besides OF, I'm not very familiar with events between TPM and AOTC, so I don't know how involved palps was with anakin...
  12. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    There isn't much in the EU between TPM and AOTC, so nobody really knows.
  13. Game3525 Force Ghost

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    Jun 25, 2008
    star 4
    This thread proves that some posters don't know the definition of a true sociopath. If Anakin was one, he wouldn't have gave a damn about his mother's death in the first place, a sociopath has no ability for empathy and we know that isn't the case with Skywalker given his actions throughout the saga.

    Palpatine is likely a sociopath, he has no ability for empathy. Even Dooku in the ROTS novel shows more sociopathic tendencies then Anakin.
    Last edited by Game3525, Feb 14, 2013
  14. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
    star 5
  15. Game3525 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2008
    star 4
    Actually it is.

    The fact that Anakin has empathy and is fearful negates any notion of him being close to a sociopath.
    Last edited by Game3525, Feb 14, 2013
  16. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Here's an article that diagnoses Anakin with borderline personality disorder:

    Bui, E., Rodgers, R., Chabrol, H., Birmes, P, & Schmitt, L. (2011). Is Anakin Skywalker suffering from borderline personality disorder? Psychiatry Research, 185, 299.
    http://www.researchgate.net/publica...uffering_from_borderline_personality_disorder


    But these authors contest that:

    da Rocha, F. F. , Malloy-Diniz, L., & Corrêa, H. (2012). Revisiting the Anakin Skywalker diagnostic: Transcending the diagnostic criteria. Psychiatry Research, 198, 179.
    http://www.researchgate.net/publica...agnostic_Transcending_the_diagnostic_criteria


    which, as the latter authors note, serves to illustrate the difficulty in diagnosing cluster B personality disorders. :)
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  17. Admiral Volshe Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    Anakin is NOT a sociopath or psychopath. Tendencies do not indicate that a person is one.
    It's possible to have two of the symptoms and be diagnosed with a completely different condition.
    The main point as it has been mentioned is empathy. Anakin was able to feel emotions, including positive ones. Attachment, guilt and remorse, all these indicate he leans toward a narcissistic and borderline personality type versus sociopathy.
    Examples are his confession of killing the Tuskens, then "What have I done?" in ROTS, at the end of ROTS his "Nooo!" and rage.
    He doesn't lie compulsively as we can see. It's very difficult to discern between whether he has 'greed', intense attachment/love, or grandiose thoughts.

    I agree with the article Darth Nub posted, though it can be contested because of various factors.

    I would also argue he has developed delusional thinking and was having a psychotic episode by the end of ROTS.

    ----

    I do not think Lucas took it too far, he needed to show that Anakin didn't have control, that his emotions and the lack of learning to cope with them as well as Palpatine taking advantage of that wasn't something minor.

    I also feel that the Tuskens and Jedi were equal in severity.
    Though the emotions behind it were different, he didn't just kill a few adult Tuskens, he killed them all.
    I think Lucas wanted a parallel there, at least that's what I saw.

    Because of his mother, he killed the Tuskens, and because of Padmé, he killed the Jedi.
  18. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Why can't Anakin just be selfish?
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  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    @ Yubnub
    It's kinda hard to diagnose from a distance, especially a fictional character. There will always be doubt.

    No, it doesn't. If you had read the article instead of skimming it you'd know. He seems to meet three criteria of the ICD-10 and three of the DSM-IV (which would suffice to classify him as antisocial). I myself think he is narcisstic, but it is definitely not as ridiculous to call him a sociopath as you seem to think.
    And if you want to continue this argument I ask you to give me facts instead of claims.
  20. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Again, people are trying to drum up traits in Anakin to label him easily as some kind of sociopath that is easily inclined toward evil. And again, I refuse to accept this easy label of him. I cannot help but wonder if many fans in general are willing to label Anakin in this manner, because they refuse to accept the possibility that just about anyone could turn to evil or commit an evil act. I believe that just about everyone possess personal traits that can lead them to a path toward evil or simply commit an evil act. And judging from the characterizations featured in the STAR WARS saga, I believe this is possible for nearly every major character, with the exception of Shmi Skywalker who strikes me as a bit too ideal.

    With the right situation and in the right emotional state, just about anyone can become a monster. Anyone.
    Last edited by DRush76, Feb 14, 2013
  21. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I sort of agree with the bolded parts but "going down the dark path" is in real life often accompanied by the development of a mental condition. The dark side itself can be seen as a metaphor for addiction or mental illness. To become mentally ill is something that can happen to pretty much everyone too.
  22. Skelter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    How the hell is she going to do that?? Hes already stronger than most jedi masters.
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  23. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    I like a lot of what you've written, but just a couple of questions

    Which Yahweh? (and I'm sure you'll understand that question)



    Is that really what we're supposed to take from the movies? Because if it is it seems odd to end the saga on the point of the Return of the Jedi - as if its a good thing.

    Which 'normal' behaviours do they label as 'abnormal'? Do they not, rather, identify harmful behaviours? Is there anything of the following that is not true (and shown to be so in the movies)?;

    "Fear is a path to the Darkside. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to..... suffering" (actually, the fear itself is the beginning of sufffering)

    "Attachment, the shadow of greed that is"

    Is it wrong to advise that learning to let go of everything you fear to lose is the path to peace (as in a peaceful mind)?

    The thing is, of all the Jedi, Anakin made the choice himself to be a Jedi. He was free to marry, just not within the Jedi Order - and so he kept that from them (along with Padmé). He was not forbidden from attachment of from his marriage, but could not take on those things and remain within the Jedi. That was the commitment that he made to the Jedi Order. Padmé and Anakin even discuss this very issue, and both agree that to live a lie would destroy them both (which it did). They both wanted to have it all their own way and decided to deceive everyone around them to get it - which ultimately lead to them both deceiving each other.

    What leads to Anakin's fall is not the methods of the Jedi (which had kept the peace in the Republic for generations) but Anakin's exhaltation of power (his misunderstanding of what it was to be a Jedi, a theme revisited throughout the PT "Obi-Wan is holding me back", "I know there are things about the Force the Council are keeping from me", "I have become twice as powerful since we last met" - a misunderstanding which he finally 'gets' due to Luke's example) along with his and Padmé's deceipt - and deceipt is the other motif of the PT - "He was deceived by a lie. We all were" - but it wasn't just Sidious...
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Feb 14, 2013
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  24. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    .Was she tortured to death by the children?
  25. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Yes, like I said, the authors of the second article note that. Above and beyond that, I'm not sure that a clear diagnosis of a personality disorder (1) makes the character more realistic (note that evidently trained psychiatrists disagree on a diagnosis, or (2) makes the character more interesting.

    IMO, Lucas straddles the line between a realistic character and a mythological archetype pretty well with Anakin, and I find the character realistic enough--I've used him in lectures (specifically, when talking about attachment theory, and when talking about self-fulfilling prophesy).



    Well, there are the Milgram experiments and the Stanford prison study to support the the notion that many people would, but I'm not sure anybody would.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
    Anyway, Phil Zimbardo (who back in the day conducted the Stanford prison study) recently wrote a book on this:
    http://www.amazon.com/The-Lucifer-Effect-Understanding-People/dp/0812974441/



    That really depends on the specific illness. Most of those illnesses have pretty strong genetic components.
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