PT Did Lucas go too far in Revenge of the Sith?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Garrett Atkins, Feb 13, 2013.

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  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I'll take that as a "no".
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Feb 14, 2013
  2. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    Except that there are a couple of questionable constructs within the posing of the questions. First, Anakin has not just ended a Galactic civil war....he has, but he knows that it has ended.....wrongly. Those tears on Mustafar are not tears of joy, as I am sure you are aware. He knows that his actions are all wrong. It isn't love for Padmé, it is now possession. He has done this for her and she had better be grateful. She wants to hear him tell her what Obi-Wan has told her is wrong. "You will not take her from me". She is a possession. It is not love. To claim that love is violence is to misunderstand the difference between possession and love. It might be corny but the old adage of if you love somebody, set them free is absolutely true - if you cannot then it is NOT love.
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  3. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    Why?
  4. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5

    Umm, that would be like us (the US) going to (name your country) because a group in that country is doing something "bad." Tatooine was out of the Republic's jurisdiction. While I doubt the Senate would have done anything even if they'd legally been able unless there was some "tangible benefit" (cynic in me) they had only a few choices: blissful ignorance, keeping within their jurisdiction, or taking actions against a non-member state.


    Sounds like the recent rogue cop scenario in a way (small way). Whether he was right or wrong on the corruption, he killed innocents (the cop's daughter, etc.) to "make his point." And it seems a lot of folks are overlooking that and cheering him on because he was standing up against "corruption."
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  5. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    I think it is teling that her last words to him are "I love"

    But Anakin in TPM didn't have narcissistic or selfish tendencies, I rather suspect that Paplatine worked this into him. I certainly don't think the Jedi did - I'm not sure how a group who learn and teach selflessness could instill exactly the opposite in a boy who doesn't have those things in him, and where does his exhaltation of power come from?
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Feb 14, 2013
  6. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    You are right, in TPM Anakin was quite a normal boy, especially considering his upbringing.

    The Jedi order always were about selflessness and imo that was part of the problem. While in the order, Anakin was forced to behave in a certain way, he was forced to obey strange rules and he had to obey a "master", just like in slavery. He could never really do what he want (he would've been sent to agricorps or back to his mother if he refused to become a jedi) and was apparently regularly put down by his master. He must have felt like living in a cage. It's no wonder he rebelled and went too far in the opposite direction. His only choice was in having either his will broken or resisting.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Feb 14, 2013
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  7. Game3525 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2008
    star 4
    I actually did read it and the only tendency that fits Anakin in terms of ICD-10, is number 6 and maybe 2, if you think breaking the Jedi Code by getting married is going against social norms. He shows more tendencies for DSM-IV(3,4,and 6) and those traits(impulsiveness, irritability, and irresponsibility) are traits that are found too common and vague to make a diagnosis.

    The key trait for an anti-social personality is lack of empathy and the fact that Anakin shows empathy negates any argument for it.
    Last edited by Game3525, Feb 14, 2013
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  8. Ambervikings91 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2012
    star 2
    why did the film have to be so dark? this was the film where the most bad stuff happens and we change from the jedi being into power to being in exile. the raise of the dark side and the sith, gunna be bad news
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  9. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I don't know about that. In fact, I don't think I can agree.
  10. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Disagree - sure we saw Obi-Wan reprimand a few times in AoTC but where did you get this idea of "regularly put down"? Being your opinion, I can't say you're wrong, but I totally disagree.

    I agree that for whatever combination of reasons Anakin did feel caged within the Jedi - for good or bad he was a passionate boy who thrived on expressing his feelings (too much so) living amongst a group who believed in downplaying emotions (too much so).

    As for obeying strange rules - well, duh - he came into the Order and they had preexisting standards of behavior. You join a group, you (largely) conform to it (note key word "largely" here - I am not saying Anakin should have displayed blind obedience).

    I disagree about rebelling being his only choice. He could have sought a bit of middle ground - confrom sometimes, push boundaries others - apparently Qui-Gon managed to stradle a fine line between obedience and defiance.
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Feb 14, 2013
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  11. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    He tells QG that Anakin is dangerous when the kid is in hearing range. He scolds Anakin for risky behavior while himself indulging in it (best seen when he jumps outa the window to hunt an assassin). He jokes that Anakin will be the death of him (yea, really funny... or not). He berates him for losing his lightsaber, again something that happens to him too at some point (forgot when exactly).
    But what made me really mad was when he brushed off Anakins force visions about his mothers impending death, claiming it was "just dreams" to a kid he well knows has magic abilities (including ...visions?). Okay, it wasn't a put down, but it made me want to punch him in the face. When Shmi did indeed die, I almost hated him.
    I like EU-OBW much, much more.

    I'm not sure Anakin had the ability to take it with humor. He was a slave before coming to the temple. He had some baggage. It is very unfortunate that Qui-Gon was murdered.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Feb 14, 2013
  12. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    No, he wasn't "quite a normal boy" in TPM, he was an especially good-hearted boy; "he gives without thought of reward".

    As for having to obey a "master", as you put it "just like in slavery"...what? You think he would be flinching from the upcoming strike that Obi-Wan would give him? The Jedi, perhaps, put an explosive device somewhere upon his body? He wanted to become a Jedi, and everything about him in TPM was....Jedi; self-less and compassionate, interested in helping others. And yet somehow the Jedi, themselves promoting selflessness, compassion and helping others have instilled selfishness and an exhaltation of power in this extraordinary, Jedi like child?
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  13. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    He 'scolds' Anakin for promising Padmé something he had no right to promise. he 'scolded' Anakin for placing Padmé in danger (as 'bait')

    Really?

    A lesson that is important to Anakin. It is hardly unimportant that Anakin understand this, it is for Anakin's good.

    Sorry, but this reaction only makes sense if Obi-Wan knows that Anakin's dreams are really happening. He does not. What he tells him is what he believes to be true; that Anakin is focussing on his anxieties. He says this to Anakin with compassion, as far as I can see. He doesn't know that Anakin is having visions - that should be obvious.
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  14. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
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    Yea, but he also risks his life in podraces scaring his mother almost to death. He obviously has something to prove and he doesn't care if he hurts others in the process (R2 or his mother). He has good and bad aspects, like most kids.

    As for compassionate and helpful ... if only they were. The only really compassionate and helpful Jedi in the order seemed to be Qui-Gon Jinn. The rest were rather cold. Whenever Anakin had a serious problem, it was disregarded and he was given a bunch of platitudes instead.
  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Yes. Funny how Obi-Wan went along with it. Hypocrit.

    Again sooo hypocritical. If he really believed in his own lectures, he would follow them. This jedi teaching between Anakin and OBW reminds me of powergames, not a real master-student relationship.

    Anakin did have those dreams for weeks. If he doesn't bother to even think of the possibility of force visions, he is dangerously incompetent or simply uncaring.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Feb 14, 2013
  16. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    We'll have to disagree, which is fine. I thought Anakin's visions were as far as Obi-Wan knew just dreams, not much spoken of by Anakin (no details). I don't fault him for his gently suggesting "dreams pass in times" because he probably thought they were dreams. He was wrong, it happens.

    Death of him "joke" - just his humor, many parents say similar things.

    Gee, maybe Obi-Wan got it drilled into him not to lose his lightsaber and is passing on the same lesson. In the novel of TPM, Qui-Gon was pretty disapproving of Obi-Wan's lapse.

    Reckless - ah, isn't it true that reckless is in the eye of the beholder? Obi-Wan would probably say he merely obeyed the Force when he jumped out the window. Anakin probably said the same when he was reckless from his master's POV. Who amongst us knows just how often "reckless" was "reckless" and how often "reckless" was "obeying the Force." I certainly don't.

    You'll probably say I'm merely defending my fav Jedi, but I wasn't crazy about either character in AoTC and didn't become an Obi-fan until ROTS so I'm not as "biased" towards one view as it may appear. I will concede that years of debating the same old same old has calcified some of my positions, but I've also changed my minds on things when given good evidence and/or reasoning.
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  17. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    "I hate it when Watto makes you do it"

    And why does he enter the podrace? And Schmi agrees? To help those others...

    The old 'perfect Qui-Gon' argument. Qui-Gon is not the perfect Jedi. Just look at his coldness to Obi-Wan and Jar-Jar at various times in TPM. Why doesn't his (rather curt) dismissal of Obi-Wan's 'bad feeling' at the beginning of TPM make you want to punch him in the face? Doesn't he know that Obi-Wan is sensing the Sith and their machinations? Doesn't it make you angry that Qui-Gon could be so blind?

    And what serious problem are you talking about? Do you mean his fears of his wife dying? The wife that the Jedi don't know he has? How can you give anything other than vague (though good) advice to someone who is deceiving you on a number of levels; when you can't tell those people what that problem is because you have been living a lie for the last three years? And the advice that Yoda gives Anakin is what he should already know as a Jedi. But he doesn't. Why? Because his greatest weaknesses are his attachment (originally to his mother) and his fear of loss....errmmm...exactly what the Jedi Council picked up in TPM (and what Palpatine has moulded to his own purpose since) and what 'perfect' Qui-Gon seemed oblivious to. If you doubt that then read why Lucas made Anakin the age he was in TPM.
  18. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Lets look into the script:

    OBI-WAN You look tired.

    ANAKIN I don't sleep well, anymore.

    OBI-WAN Because of your mother?

    ANAKIN I don't know why I keep dreaming
    About her now. I haven't seen her
    since I was little.

    OBI-WAN Dreams pass in time.


    Anakin does say that he keeps dreaming about her and that he didn't sleep well, anymore. It is obvious he had these dreams lots of times and all Obi-Wan has to say about it is that dreams pass in time. This should ring alarm bells immediately when it comes from a force user, especially the chosen one, yet it doesn't with Obi-Wan. Is he really ignorant or is the ignorance deliberate?

    Yes, not everybody likes the same characters. Besides the hypocrisy Obi-Wan also never seems to know what is going on in his pupils head. It comes across as if he didn't care. Obi-Wan seems far more sympathetic in ROTS, but at that point it is too late for me to like him. Him being partially responsible for Shmis death is the dealbreaker (I really like Shmi).
  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Okay, I forgot about that line. Still, he likes to risk his life a lot.

    The only times I remember when QG was mean to JarJar was when JarJar almost got him killed. I think in that situation its perfectly fine to be "cold".

    The situation you described didn't lead to the death of a character I liked, so no. But I admit it was a mistake to dismiss the feelings of his pupil like that.

    There's a whole bunch of serious problems, from Anakins obvious mental problems to Yoda feeling "something bad has happened" to the whole Palpatine spy deal. In their infinite wisdom, the Jedi also sent Anakin into war, which is obviously the perfect place for someone as labile as Anakin to be.

    I don't actually think Qui-Gon is a powerful Jedi. I can't fault him for not having uber powers. What I can fault is if someone lacks common sense and/or is a jerk.
  20. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    We totally agree on one thing: Shmi. She was fantastic and while the story didn't allow her a bigger role, she filled it more than admirably.
  21. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    I don't think Lucas went too far. There are far darker and unpleasant films that ROTS. The beauty is how ROTS feels so much like a star wars film even with the darkness, and how we still have hope at the end. That is no easy task to accomplish.

    For as dark as ROTS is, there was still restraint. Thankfully we didn't get the (semi) gore of Lord of the Rings or the uncompromising darkness as seen in the dark knight trilogy.
    Last edited by BoromirsFan, Feb 14, 2013
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  22. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    This is the double-edged sword of the Episode VII reveal. The forums are newly active again, but now we have opened the floodgates to nonsense such as this.
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  23. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    star 9
    Let's keep opinions about each other out of the discussion, shall we?
  24. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Perfectly said, BF!

    One thing I'll add...

    The "Dark Knight" trilogy is also guilty of semi-gore; or non-gore (gore).

    A major problem with that set of films, for me, is the patently unrealistic presentation of violence and guns (a topic with heightened importance at the moment). Armond White charged that it is "hard, loud, and constant, but never realistic", and I can only agree. From Bruce wrecking half the city in his bat tank in the first movie, as well as surviving an insane death from explosions and then a deadly fall in that movie's first act, to all the nonsense at the end with a collapsing mansion and a runaway train, and on into TDK, which is sort of like a PG-13 version of "Terminator 2", rendering toothless a lot of physical and gun violence, only to do a 180 where it feels like it and go out of the way to sensationalize for the sake of upping the stakes and constructing a thin allegory (e.g., Dent's transformation), forever remaining a cartoon in a real-world setting, and then TDKR, where all kinds of loopy stuff happens, including the protagonist being horribly stabbed and the weapon pushed further into his body in a prolonged, gruesome fashion, yet he survives perfectly well enough to perform his "hero" bit at the end. Schlocky and plain bad, in my view -- and sold to young, impressionable minds under the false banner of realism. The "Dark Knight" trilogy is an "epic" where plastic violence and kicky sadism are everywhere, while sex and romance and adult relationships have almost no place at all. I believe that's what some would call "piffle" (or a sad reflection of American cinema).

    Sorry... just a little Nolan rant there. By contrast, the PT seems like a very rounded presentation, using the intense graphical stylization of its alt-verse to create the right dose of horror, or engineered spectacle, or balletic/martial combat, and many other strands of the human experience: love, infidelity, existential uncertainty, moments of awkwardness and low humour, tentative bonds formed in times of adversity, all-out war, lamentation of the passing of innocence and youth, a cutting presentation of benevolent government as actually being part democracy and part dictatorship (the Republic is nudged into the Empire, not corrupted beyond reason), and an ironic sensibility that seems totally alien in other blockbuster entertainments that aspire to the grandiose. To sit through another tentpole film series, with its bleak palettes, or its po-faced morbidity, or its fake violence, or its endless platitudes, is, well, an exercise in tedium, in my experience. The PT has an operatic quality, finding varied contexts for a thoughtful balancing of the big and the small, the serious and the absurd, that makes it a pleasure to return to. But other entertainments -- recent ones, that is -- have tended to sin in one or more of these aforementioned areas and scupper whatever issues they were trying to explore with too much superficiality or entrenched stupidity. As if there's a fear that audiences won't accept whatever they're enticed to plunk down cash for unless it's loud, dumb, scripted to the max, emotionally manipulative, overblown, and unrepentant in tone. I dunno. Just a personal opinion. I'm glad we have the PT.
    Last edited by Cryogenic, Feb 15, 2013
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  25. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    Not really. He wants to help (if anything the real question here is why Qui-Gon insisted on taking Anakin with him into a war zone... seems an odd way to look after him) and is naive about the dangers. The whole point of TPM, as far as the characterisation of Anakin is concerned, is to show him as innocent; as pure.


    How about ordering him not to touch anything in Watto's store? Or embarrassing him in front of the party at Schmi's residence -catching his tongue and berating him for what is simply his natural behaviour? Once the party land on Coruscant he seems oblivious to Jar-Jar's existence, and (despite his claims to Anakin later in the Council) shoos the young boy off with Amidala et al.

    But you seem to be under the apprehension that Obi-Wan should have known - but that is from an OOU perspective, knowing that Anakin's dreams become reality. The problems with premonitions are addressed time and again within the movies. "Always in motion the future is". The dreams that Anakin has about Padmé are brought about by his actions in ROTS. You, essentially, blame Obi-Wan for not knowing the story in advance. And, as far as Obi-Wan knows the dreams, as with anybody, are simply his unconscious mind focussing on his anxieties; anxieties that are well know from Anakin's earliest contact with the Jedi - his fear of loss and attachment. There is no reason why Obi-Wan would believe that what Anakin has seen is actually going to come to be. None whatsoever. And at no point in the films is it suggested that acting upon one's dreams or premonitions is a good thing. Even here, when Anakin does, he acts in anger, cuts down every member of the tribe including the women and children. Could he really have saved her? It seemed to me that she clung on to life simply to be alive when and if somebody did come.



    I'm not sure how you can blame this on the Jedi and not on Anakin. Let's take the "something bad has happened"... yes it had. We know what it was. Palpatine knows what it was, but clearly Anakin...... didn't bother to tell the Jedi. What are the Jedi to do if he deceives them? Don't you think that if Anakin actually unveiled his deeper problems to the Jedi they might have a chance of dealing with them? He keeps everything from them.

    And, as for sending him to war....You understand, surely, that the Jedi didn't really have much choice about who they sent to war? You know who was behind the war, right? How do you think Anakin would have reacted if every other Jedi was trusted to go to war, and he wasn't? You think that would have helped to heal the many psychological problems he has?

    This whole business of "it was the Jedi what did it" just ignores all of the evidence that is placed in front of your eyes as to the true architect of Anakin's downfall. The first biggie is, who gains from it? We see from AOTC onward Palpatine buttering his protegé up - he even says "I have said it before, and I will say it again. You are the most gifted Jedi I have ever known". So he has been manipulating Anakin with sugar and complements from an early age ("we will take a great interest in your career"). He has groomed the boy for his own purpose. He tells us at the beginning of ROTS that he has been a confidant of Anakin's "Remember what you told me about the Sandpeople..". I have little doubt that he would advise Anakin not to mention it to the Jedi (I also suspect that he might have been behind the whole Schmi kidnap and torture - but as Anakin psycopathically killed them all no-one would ever know - after all we see a 'mirror' of this in ESB when Vader captures and tortures Han Solo for the purpose of drawing Luke to him). That's why Anakin is happy enough to "be my eyes and ears" on the Jedi Council, but complains about reporting on the Chancellor's actions - which he claims is 'spying' - funny, he has no such compunction about 'spying' on his Jedi colleagues.

    More accurately, you mean a character who does not know the story before it happens.
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Feb 15, 2013
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