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PT Did Lucas go too far in Revenge of the Sith?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Garrett Atkins, Feb 13, 2013.

  1. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    I never understood why Anakin was taken to Naboo, either.
    Or risking his life so readily could hint at low self esteem. I like this interpretation because it works well with what happens later.

    Qui-Gon is not a saint. If someone like Jar-Jar was around me I'd lose my patience too. But he doesn't call him a "pathetic creature" like Obi-Wan does.

    Yes, he should have known. He is a space wizard, Anakin is another space wizard. Visions are known to the Jedi too. I suck at deductive reasoning, I really do. If I read a detective novel I never know who the murderer is until the end. But c'mon. It's not hard to deduce the chosen one of all people could have some force visions occasionally. Either Obi-Wan is really incompetent or he is uncaring.

    Tatooine is a dangerous place to boot. It would've been easy to get Shmi off the rock for a couple of month. Then they could watch if the dreams returned or not. Then they could decide whether they return Shmi to her home or not.

    As for the last couple of sentences: Not dealing with stuff is precisely the reason why the order was wiped out. Had they investigated into the clone army, had they looked into what is wrong with Anakin, or had they taken Dookus words seriously instead of sitting on their butts and babbling about the force, the catastrophe may have been prevented.

    You will rationalize every mistake they make, won't you? In your eyes, there can be no fault with the jedi order.

    As for one of your questions: They should not have bothered with Anakins "feelings" on the matter. War is war and Anakin simply wasn't ready for facing the terrors war brings.

    So, Palpatine is evil. I didn't know that.
    But Palpatines evil plan was also stoopid. It hinges on many variables outside his control. It also hinges on the stupidity of pretty much everyone involved. Palpatine would never have succeeded if anyone of the protagonists showed a little common sense.
    Megatronus Prime likes this.
  2. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    The lack of esteem is exactly what we see Palpatine play to. He pours the oil of praise upon the boy, showers him with complements and then shifts that subtly over toward his way of thinking, exhalting power and ability as the prime essence of being a Jedi, so that Anakin doesn't quite get what his Jedi Masters are teaching him, He uses the language of the Jedi in a sort of contra-language, a Sith re-interpretation so that, for example, Anakin confuses the Jedi advice "use your feelings" as referring to emotions. He has whispered Sith teachings into the boy so ingeneously that Anakin does not knwo they are not the same as his Jedi teachings.

    But, when you say that you 'like this interpretation because it works well with what happens later", what you are really saying is that you like it because it fits your interpretation of what happens later. What we are told in the film is (from Qui-Gon, no less) that he gives without thought of reward; and from Schmi, that he knows nothing of greed. That is what we are to take from the film, then - surely? What we are told.

    "Are you brainless?"....not too far off, I don't think. And, one of the difficulties I have with these discussions is that...I like the character Qui-Gon. I may not agree with all of his actions, but he is a strong (and well rendered) and personable character. But it seems many see him as exactly what you claim here you do not see him as; Saint Qui-Gon. He is not. He has his faults as all sentient beings do. The allegedly strict/harsh teaching style of Obi-Wan is nothing but a mirror of his mentor's teaching style. In their first scene in AOTC he shows far more warmth toward Anakin than I saw fro Qui-Gon toward Obi-Wan.

    From your pov that is a perfectly reasonable assumption to make. You see the whole thing unfold from outside. There is no reason for Obi-wan to believe it is a premonition. This isn't too hard of a concept to grasp. I think it is pretty clear that Obi-wan's actions are not intended to be either incompetent or uncaring but are to be understood as reasonable from the perspective of a character in universe. This is a pretty basic storytelling construct. You can't base what In Universe characters ought to know on the premise of the privileged position of the viewer, who is made aware of information the characters do not know. What you might see, from your privileged OOU position as 'easily deducible' does not carry over to the characters in the film. I could repeatn this in many slightly different forms but it really should be understood that the purpose of the scenes is not to show that Obi-Wan is stupid, incompetent or uncaring, but rather that there's no real reason he would believe they were true premonitions. highlighted a whole section of what I said and then never addressed that point. At all. Instead you say....

    What I said has nothing to do with dealing with things, it has to do with what can be done about premonitions anyway, and the fact that acting upon them is never shown to end well. As for what you do address, that is linked with what you say further, so I will address that...

    here... I don't know if I would call it rationalising (but more on that in a bit), I am simply trying to explain how I see the saga, why, and trying to question how it could be so (imo) turned on its head (again, more on this very shortly). As for Anakin not ready to face the terros war brings.... who was? Do you think the many innocent citizens of the Republic (and beyond) were ready for the terror war brings? Isn't it Anakin's choice to remain in the Jedi (after he has married Padmé, so by deceiving his colleagues) and face that terror? And here, in this instance they shouldn't bother about Anakin's feelings? But the rest of the time that's what they should be bothered about - seemingly to the detriment of all else. If only they could solve the problem of Anakin (there's a musical in there somewhere...).

    But to the real crux of the matter....

    Priceless. Sarcasm and irony. The sarcasm deliberate, the irony lost to you. Let me unveil it. The reason you can be sarcastic is because this is such a major theme of the entire saga. Given that it is such a major theme, and that the saga ends on the positive note of the Return of the Jedi......and the destruction of Palpatine, how have the obvious themes (so obvious you can be sarcastic about me pointing one of them out) been interpreted as "it was the Jedi what done it"?

    If you think it hinges upon many variables beyond his control then you haven't understood what the entire PT is about. He deceives and manipulates every event for his advantage. He is behind the blockade and invasion of Naboo - in order to empower himself (the sympathy vote helps him to win over the Senate, at the expense of the incumbent Chancellor, shown to be unable to resolve the issue). he is behind the Separatist movement (Dooku being his apprentice) and behind the ordering of the clone army. The fact that he is behind both parties in the war means that everything is under his control. the Jedi are diverted away from discovering the true nature of the clone army - Palpatine has the power to know where everything is at. He throws the Jedi (and the galaxy) into the madness and terror, the moral quagmire, of war, decimating the Jedi along the way. All the while collecting more and more power for himself. The final nail in the coffin is the destruction of the Jedi; the jewel in the crown is his sealing the deal with Anakin - tarnished though that jewel is by his defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan.

    He is the puppet master, and what bolsters his power is deceipt and suspicion. Anakin has been groomed to keep things from the Jedi, to exhalt power and himself - that is the basis of his confusion. He know his feelings aren't those of a Jedi but can't figure out why. He has been deceived by Palpatine in his very deepest thinking.

    There is a reason that Order 66 is accompanied by the score that John Williams gives it. It is not a triumphant moment of the film, it is a poignant, horrifying disaster. The music of the Star Wars films is a strong element; it is through the imagery and music that GL predominantly tells his stories. The destruction of the Jedi is the beginning of the Galactic Empire, it is the end of hope. A New Hope is the response to this disaster.

    It wasn't the Jedi what done it, it was - as you sarcastically reveal - the Sith Lord they have all been looking for. "He was deceived by a lie. We all were."
  3. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    I agree he can be interpreted as totally selfless. Like I said before I forgot the line of being forced into podracing.

    But I still think his self esteem issues drive him to act in a risky manner.

    Wasn't that after Jar-Jar endangered QGs life? In that context it is alright to lose your cool a little imo. QG is neither a saint nor a robot.

    Now that I think of it QGs and OBWs behavior was quite antagonistic to each other at times. However, even if QG were a bad teacher it wouldn't excuse OBW for being a bad teacher himself.

    But every time we judge the movie we are projecting our own experiences and knowledge into it! Whether we judge it in a positive or negative manner, we can't separate ourselves from our own thought which are influenced by our upbringing, our genetic heritage and our current state of mind.
    If the movies are made so that the viewer is forced to conclude OBW is dangerously incompetent (example), then that's not the audiences fault but the directors.
    I'm an aspiring writer myself with two published books (in german). When I write a story I usually have much more inside information about the characters than my audience. I know their deepest motivations, their fears, their anger, their dreams. But I can't give all information at once. It must be unveiled carefully through the course of the story. And while I do this, I got to make sure the audience understands why a character acts in a certain way or not. I must try to view the story as if I were the audience. If I fail in doing so, if only my intentions are plain but the execution is lacking, I have failed. Because usually the audience could care less about the authors good intentions. Good intentions alone don't result in a good and convincing end product.

    I don't believe that reacting to a prophecy always results in harm. Btw., Luke going to Bespin did yield a positive outcome. He lost a hand, but Leia and Chewie sure escaped alive and Luke got some really valuable information and a new ally (Lando Calrissian) to boot. So why should I think that visions always end in catastrophe? It was never clarified why that should be the case.

    If half-baked explanation would make me feel better about these aspects of the story, I would already have found some. I'm quite creative. But so far, nothing has been really satisfying. Sorry. I've made up some explanations for Anakin, they are okay, but they don't feel very "right" either. I want to like the PT, but often I find myself in a place between a stone and a hammer.

    I understand the whole false flag maneuver he is pulling. But he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent and often what he does put him in situations were it was ridiculously easy to expose him. I'm not going to say more on the matter as that would detonate this thread, I'm afraid. Some particular points I have issues with is the political maneuvering, his "disguise", Dooku telling the Jedi a Sith is controlling the senate and the handling of the Neimoidians. Some stuff is really weird like using Jar-Jar for getting emergency powers despite the fact that Jar-Jar is not really an influential entity in the senate.
    I don't buy into his brilliance. He is a mediocre, overconfident schemer who I would put at about the same level as Nute Gunray. He could've been easily stopped by almost anyone in power if they weren't even dumber than he is. During the OT his stupidity also shows when he and Vader both inhabit the DSII or when he goads Luke into killing his own father.
  4. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012

    I would agree with you that the story is not particularly well executed, but you seem to be reacting to that by reversing the themes. That seems an odd play, but criticism comes in many forms.

    But to the specific point regarding character knowledge and privileged viewer knowledge you seem to address the exact reverse of what we are discussing here. As a writer you must be aware that it is not simply characters within the story who know something the viewer (reader) does not - and upon learning this the viewer/reader can be enlightened as to previously puzzling behaviour, but sometimes the characters will not be aware of something that the viewer/reader is aware of. You must also, therefore, understand that it would be misplaced for the viewer/reader to attribute their privileged knowledge to the character.

    In other words, that you can deduce that Anakin's dreams were really prophetic does not mean that it was incompetence or that he doesn't care. If one does not deduce something it does not automatically lead to such a conclusion, Often, if one lacks information, then it is understandable. Being a writer you must know that what establishes which of these is the case is the context.

    As for Bespin being a bad thing. Luke didn't just lose his hand, he very nearly lost his life. Those he went to rescue either escaped on their own merit or were frozen in carbonite and taken to Tatooine. At no point is there anything positive that comes from acting on premonitions.
    Yanksfan likes this.
  5. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Force Ghost star 8

    Nov 20, 2012
    ROTS had to be dark in order to fully display the horrors of the Jedi Purge and whatnot. I just couldn't see how it could possibly be dumbed down without getting rid of some of the powerful imagery.
  6. Sistros

    Sistros Jedi Master star 6

    Jul 24, 2010
    just a side note:

    no one has answered the actual question

    did Lucas go to this place called Far? :p
  7. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    What you bolded is inevitable in a case of dramatic irony, therefore it is unwise to make the characters appear too clueless. At points it seems as if Lucas had made his characters dumb on purpose to assure his convoluted plot works. Not very elegant and annoying for the audience. In an ideal situation, the characters themselves carry the plot, not the other way around.
    By the way, you are again shifting the blame to the audience. That is not professional. If you include something that defies common knowledge, better explain it.

    But for me that's the only valid in universe interpretation. It fits with my own kind of logic and it fits with all the little informations I absorbed from the movies. I can't "force" myself to think otherwise and I can't force myself to stop thinking about it either. If I did, it would completely take me out of the movie and that would destroy any immersion.

    I hope I understood your sentences correctly. I'm very firm in German, not so much in English.

    There is no conclusive proof that acting on a prophecy always leads to bad results. I myself think it is wise to act on a prophecy but important to remain cautious, after all, the prophecy could be self-fulfilling. And while Luke lost his hand, he got something more important in return: a lesson. Leaving his friends in peril on the other hand would probably have broken his spirit. He could probably not have forgiven himself for "betraying" his friends. This is something Yoda couldn't understand.
  8. Eryndil

    Eryndil Jedi Knight star 3

    Dec 18, 2012
    Would a :rolleyes: be appropriate at this point? If not, never mind! :D
  9. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 23, 2003
    Smarm like that is only good if ur next in line.;)

  10. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Force Ghost star 8

    Nov 20, 2012
    No, but I heard that VII takes place there. It's really awesome. There's lots of bars and stuff.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  11. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005
    Qui-Gon taking Anakin into a war-like environment is an extension of the Jedi's complicity in helping to scramble Anakin's brain and put his and all their young adherents' entire safety at risk. On the other hand, Anakin was raised on a violent dustbowl of a world outside the Republic's care or concern, so he's not necessarily in significantly more danger on an occupied Naboo than he would have been on an unoccupied Tatooine. And Qui-Gon told Anakin he didn't have permission to train him, but wanted Anakin to watch him and be mindful. He also told him: "Stay close to me and you'll be safe". The Jedi, rightly or wrongly, were very confident in being able to protect those under their charge, with their enhanced powers of perception and superhuman skills.

    What is also never pointed out is that Padme and her entourage were sneaking through a city they knew the layout of far better than the Trade Federation (including secret tunnels and passages). When the film cuts to them about to enter the hangar, they're still sneaking: about to create a diversion that enables them to quickly slink inside without being fired upon. A firefight certainly erupts once they enter the hangar, but at that moment, you have a bunch of armed humans (better shots than droids), and two -- count 'em, two -- Jedi warriors, parrying laser bolts with ease. Anakin, too, has moderate Force ability, even if this is terra incognita to him, and can be relied upon, if only slightly, to listen to Qui-Gon (from Qui-Gon's POV; after some knowing emphasis on the street: "You find a safe place to hide and stay there -- stay there!") and plunk his butt down wherever.

    It's far from an ideal situation, though. And it does still feel, to an extent, that Qui-Gon is playing chicken with this boy's life, which is all the stranger given that he considers him to be the Chosen One. But perhaps that is also part of the explanation: in Qui-Gon's eyes, this boy might as well be wearing a golden fleece, and with his guardianship, he is next to invulnerable (Anakin's light brown rags and adorning necklace actually call the golden fleece to mind: as if humility is his protective amulet). All told, however, it's some pretty risky behaviour on Qui-Gon's part, and it isn't surprising to see these actions of Qui-Gon's being bashed.

    Yet these characters live and work in an imperfect world. And Qui-Gon's actions are not anymore extreme, really, than betting on Anakin (a complete stranger to him the day before) to win a podrace, in an untested podracer, which placed him in more danger than ever before (an untested machine can go wrong, and if you're really racing to win, you're looking death in the face). He had immense faith in the boy. Faith is love. And love is blinding.

    It's trying to be sensitive to these variables that -- in my opinion -- makes you a discerning fan; or not.
    Andy Wylde and BoromirsFan like this.
  12. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Some comments.
    1) The blockade, when they left Naboo they barely got through it alive. And as far as Padme or Qui-Gon knows, that blockade is still there meaning they will most likely get blown up before they land.
    And Jedi powers or not, they won't do any good against ship guns.

    2) Noone calls Qui-Gon out on him bringing Anakin along, neither Obi-Wan nor Padme questions or even comments on Anakins presence. And both of those characters have not been shy to question Qui-Gon before.

    3) Tatooine can't really be compared to the war zone that is Naboo. Mos Espa seemed safe enough.
    Anakin could walk alone to and from his home so the streets are apparently safe enough for small children to walk around with little fear. From what the movies show us, the biggest danger is out in the big deserts where you can run afoul Sandpeople or worse. This would be like comparing a war zone like Syria with an american city that has a high crime rate, say Detroit or Chicago.

    4) Neither Padme nor Qui-Gon could know for sure what resistance they would encounter, even assuming they would survive long enough to land. And since Qui-Gon does tell Anakin to stay in the cockpit he obviously thinks that that place is safer than by his side. So why bring him along?

    Qui-Gon's actions are very questionable, risking the life of a small boy, but they also lack sense.
    Brining Anakin along serves no purpose, it runs the risk of him getting killed for no apparent gain.
    I view it as a case of plot convinience, Anakin has to be there and so he is.
    It would not have been hard to give some brief explanation for this, like Anakin sneaking onboard the ship against Qui-Gons advice.

    Well that action too is questionable, esp since Qui-Gon had other options. Like going to another trader, one not Force immune, and using his republic money to get enough goods to then barter with Watto. But at least this time Padme questions Qui-Gon on his actions and Qui-Gon gives his reasons, his faith. This fits fairly well with his overall character. And here Qui-Gon at least has a given reason why he does this, if Anakin wins then they get the parts they need.

    I wouldn't presume to tell other people what kinds of fan they are based on their opinions. If they like something I don't like then fine or if they dislike something that I like then that is fine too.
    I might argue against their reasons for liking/disliking something if I feel those reasons don't make a lot of sense. For ex if someone thinks that Star Trek is crap because it got spaceships in it then I would argue that isn't a terribly good reason for not liking something.

    Discuss the reasons/arguments people bring up and talk about that, not about the people making the argument.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor.
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  13. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005
    The blockade would have been far more likely to admit them passage BACK to Naboo rather than FROM Naboo, right? And it was more or less dissolved when they returned there, anyway, right? And the TF likely got rid of it because the surface had been subdued; and because they probably thought it best to remove traces of themselves from orbit, right?

    Obi-Wan actually jabs at Qui-Gon, reminding him of the Jedi Council's position, and asks him why he can't sense what they can, on the landing platform, in earshot of Anakin, before they board the queen's ship. So, in actual fact, Obi-Wan seems to question Anakin being brought along. Padme, as the queen, has other matters to focus on, but it seems reasonable to assume she thinks they will at least survive touching down on the planet in one piece, with Qui-Gon assuring her that he will not allow the TF -- I take this to mean once they're on Naboo; and in the course of negotiations/resisting the TF on diplomatic grounds (Qui-Gon didn't yet know of her plan to take back Naboo) -- to destroy her.

    I may have thrown you a bone before with my use of the term "war-like", but this is important: Naboo is not a "war zone". It's under occupation with little to no resistance from any opposing faction. It's more like Northern Ireland -- but without the terrible ethnic/social/religious/political divides -- with an occupying security force. I really cannot stress it enough, so I'll say it once more: Naboo is under OCCUPATION, it is not at war.

    Personally, I wouldn't be any happier with a kid roaming parts of Detroit or Chicago on their own than I would if they were accompanied with armed adult guards in an occupied country. The latter actually strikes me as a great deal safer. You do have to pay attention to that bit: Padme is armed, her security detachment is armed, the Jedi are armed. The Jedi also have superhuman perception. And their main enemy is droids: dumb robots.

    I believe your first sentence answers the question posed in your second. Qui-Gon knew there was danger and tried to minimize the threat to Anakin by getting him to hide in an area being flushed of enemies, so that he could remain there until a Jedi or a member of Padme's team could come back -- once the Viceroy had been captured -- to retrieve him.

    It's extremely unlikely they'd have encountered trouble landing, particularly as they chose a secluded forest in the middle of wherever. It wasn't in the TF's bests interests to fire on a ship carrying the planet's rightful ruler and outright kill her. At best, the TF may have attempted disabling the ship (which is what the TF appeared to be doing when the ship ran the blockade originally).

    I'm not sure how Anakin could have snuck aboard a small ship stationed on a tiny floaty platform in the middle of a vast city planet. Sure, Obi-Wan sneaks aboard Padme's similar-sized ship, on a similar-sized landing platform, in ROTS, but he's a Jedi who also knows the lay of the land, when Padme herself is mortally distracted, and barring one security officer and C-3PO, completely on her own. Anakin doing likewise, for all the rhyming in these films, just seems too cliched to me. Plus, we'd miss the moment of Anakin loudly beckoning Artoo with him as Jar Jar shouts, "Wesa goin' home!" -- which is one of my favourite moments in the movie.

    What you also miss is an important subtext: Anakin tries to heed Qui-Gon's instructions, not flagrantly disobey them. The punchline of the whole bit at the end with Anakin in the starfighter is that he followed the letter of Qui-Gon's law, so to speak, but not necessarily the spirit (and because he was spurred into action because Padme was pinned down by impervious destroyer droids). In other words, his obeisance to Qui-Gon was coloured by his affection for Padme, and his general drive to help people in need. These people didn't limit him or manifest any ill will, so he had no cause to defy them for personal gain: he simply wanted to help. Anakin sneaking on a ship against the words of a respected father figure badly garbles a key undertow to the tragedy of Darth Vader.

    Lastly, I don't know if Anakin serves an explicit purpose in the eyes of Qui-Gon or whoever else in the last act of the movie, but he's at least THERE -- which is consistent with Qui-Gon's earlier adopting of Jar Jar, if you will, even though Jar Jar doesn't overtly serve a purpose to the Jedi once they get to Otoh Gunga. You have to remember that Qui-Gon is a strong believer in "the living Force", so carries these extra people with him like lucky charms. Jar Jar is the saga equivalent to a rabbit's foot (which is a very widespread belief/superstition, BTW) and Anakin could be a clove of garlic or whatever. More than OUR world, Jedi can also FEEL the Force, and Qui-Gon can likely sense ripples created by Jar Jar and Anakin that he considers beneficial to have around, particularly in times of crises. That doesn't mean they have to be constantly by his side, but once he takes them on, he seems to ensure they're always near at hand.

    I'm not going to go over all of that. It's been discussed before and I'm bored of it.

    Eh, whatever. You shoot your own argument down with your example. I'm more or less saying the same thing. And that also means I'm not discussing or slamming people, but regarding their fandom through the quality of their argument: how much they see or don't see; how open they are to variables of different kinds. For instance, if someone says, "midi-chlorians were just a lazy way for Lucas to make Anakin seem special", I don't regard THAT person as highly as one who notes their links with the theme of symbiosis, Lucas' own nature/ecology interests, mulls over the possibility that the the midi-chlorians aren't the be-all and end-all of Jedi-hood, that the Jedi might be too dogmatic in the PT and too into ratios and blood testing, that the midis serve as a nice contrast with Obi-Wan's more simplified explanation of the Force to Luke -- who ultimately redeems Anakin -- and so forth. In essence, clever people are capable of making fine distinctions; stupid people are not. Nothing strange or unwieldy about that.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  14. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    Ah, thanks very much for that insult, Cryogenic. Clever people would also not rate other people on how they interpret a couple of movies. Some just want to have fun with the Star Wars movies not overanalyse every single detail. Some others like to go in-depth with certain aspects and don't care for others. Clever people would also probably not compare northern irelands situation with that of Naboo. How ****ing insulting for every Irish person on these boards.

    So, now how to access the ignore list here?
  15. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005
    You're welcome. :)

    Interpretation and the sentiments uttered in support (or against) cannot help but reflect on the intelligence of a person, IMO.

    That would explain your presence on a Star Wars discussion board, in a prequel trilogy thread, complaining that you "never understood" a very specific plot detail localized to a single Star Wars movie, then.

    99% of fans discuss the plots and characters of the movies; the more esoteric side of Star Wars is essentially dead to fans. Again, if you're here, right now, having this disagreement with me, it means you're a geek who's heavily invested: a hardcore acolyte. Try not to show quite so much cognitive dissonance in future.

    I was making a basic analogy. I also qualified that the situations aren't exactly alike when I noted the profound absence of internecine strife on Naboo.

    Personally, I think clever people wouldn't swear so easily on a family board over such a non-issue, or presume to speak for untold others over said non-issue, or immediately collapse AN ENTIRE REBUTTAL into a single strawman statement; or, indeed, attempt to moralize over a harmless comparison made in the course of an explanation. This kind of run-and-gun rhetoric is what I'd expect to find on IMDb or the YouTube comments section, not TFN.

    Oooh, burn. No idea. If you want go whole hog and ignore anything you dislike, including all this "overanalysis", you could just leave, of course. It would probably be the simpler course to take.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  16. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012 You don't understand the dynamics of a blockade? And, if the blockade was legal and the invasion not, then it would make sense for the blockade to continue (in order to hide from the outside what is going on within).

    Obi-Wan jabs at Qui-Gon because he knows what the real game is here (ie Qui-Gon is, in truth, looking at training Anakin) and because he can't believe that his master has had in mind training this young boy when he, and the rest of the council can clearly sense the reasons why he should not be. The very reasons, it should be pointed out, the he falls - and the very reasons that Lucas chose to make Anakin the young age that he is. He can't believe that Qui-Gon cannot see what they all can, and that he has dragged this kid away from his mother without considering that he they might not agree to train him.

    I'm not going to even go into how far out you are with the idea that Northern Ireland is 'under occupation' - keep that kind of crap out of here, please. As for Naboo simply being under occupation and not a war zone...??? It has just recently been invaded; there is an invasion army upon the surface (not to mention the military blockade outside); the people are in camps where they are suffering (as Nute Gunray tells Sio Bibble) - ie concentration camps. It is a war zone. Not only that but Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are sent back with the Queen with Amidala because they believe that the returning Queen will draw out Qui-Gon's mysterious foe on Tatooine. You really don't think this is all a little more dangerous than a) Anakin staying on Coruscant until he can be dealt with properly or b) returned to Tatooine?

    It makes no sense to have him there in the first place if it his promise to Schmi that he would look after him is what is on his mind.

    This doesn't make any sense as an answer. You like the mirroring but you think this would have been one too far?? Had it been in you'd have been extolling its virtues, as any other. This is what gets me with this kind of 'you just don't get it' nonsense, its lazy and a conceit.

    I don't think anyone misses that. What follows from that, though, is that the same can be said of Qui-Gon who - though in the letter of the law (as it were) does not seek to train Anakin, tells him to watch him closely and to take heed. In other words he does the same with the Council as Anakin does with Qui-Gon. Is there an "undertow" to what Qui-Gon really was there then?

    So, Qui-Gon having been hanging around like 'lucky charms' is what his link with the 'Living Force' amounts to? Wow. The whole 'living foce' as oppossed to... what, exactly (in the movies)? Is the other the 'unliving force'? Yet more extraeneous, half-cock quasi-exposition which adds nothing to the story. That is one of the problems I have in terms of the story-telling throughout the PT - that elements are introduced without clear reason and then.... never talked of again - that have, actually, no bearing or any impact upon the story.


    So, it boils down to you judge people by whether or not they agree with you, and you think people don't 'get it' as you do because they are stupid. I admire a lot of what George Lucas does in terms of mirroroing, and in terms of visual cues (backed up by a great musical score) but I see a great deal of.....rubbish written about such 'symbolism' which borders on the deranged. Bottom line is, a saga, a story, needs to be told. Otherwise its not a saga or a story but symbolic art. If it were symbolic art that George Lucas said the movies are, fair enough. He didn't. He said it was the story of the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker. One shouldn't have to create that story from the pieces. There are reasons why there are such wide conclusions drawn from the PT as to the 'reasons' for Anakin's fall (that GL said he would show - as in show how someone good could do bad things....) and that's because the saga fails to do so. He is already well on the way to his fall by the beginning of AOTC; there is very little character development from there. One has to pick out from the crumbs what it was (ie what happened when we weren't watching) to change the innocent, giving Anakin in TPM to the self-centred, antagonistic, power seeking man-boy we see in AOTC.
    Yanksfan likes this.
  17. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    Hmm..yeah, duiscussing it...not deciding on the inetlligence, worthiness of people based upon their agreement/disagreement.

    But...not deciding whom is intelligent and not based upon some self-invested nonsense about being able to 'get' the 'esoteric' side of Star Wars. That is what is wrong here.

    As I say, there is much to admire in GL's work I, however, do not think he is a particularly deep philosophical thinker - I would suggest he would probably agree with that. I think he follows quite simple philosophies.

    Perhaps you just don't 'get' what is being questioned. You appear to judge people by their agreement or otherwise with your imaginings of the Star Wars films. You appear to reveal what I rather suspect about such arguments....that only you are able to 'get' it, and that's why others don't see as you do. No-one else's opinion is valid, it is simply that they are not as good as you.

    As for the 'harmless' comparison. I would suggest that if you are not fully conversant with a subject you should avoid it. That you believe the opinion was 'harmless' in itself shows how little understanding you have of the situation.
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  18. fett 4

    fett 4 Force Ghost star 5

    Jan 2, 2000
    Just so we are totaly clear because this point needs to be made after statements like this. Northern Ireland is NOT under occupation. It's part of the United Kingdom under democratic majority consent (roughly 80%) but in Northern Ireland you also have the option of having a Rep of Ireland passport too if you wish. Which is why some people will have Derry on their passports and others will have LondonDerry.
    Eryndil and Darth_Pevra like this.
  19. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005
    It's a Star Wars blockade. At some point, parallels to the real world break down. I think the TF felt they should make Naboo look relatively normal from orbit, just leaving the one ship there to conduct general operations. People would have to fly down to the surface and walk around to get a better sense of what was happening. Which I guess they could have done more easily without a blockade, but maybe there was little threat of anyone trying, and the TF had the planet subdued to a point where all traffic would require supervision to touch down in any of the ports or the more built-up regions. Basically, when the heroes go back to Coruscant, the situation they're up against is best compared -- in-universe -- to Bespin in TESB.

    The "reasons" that Anakin falls are varied and complex. Lucas is actually asking a viewer to consider that with the metaphor of the midi-chlorians: thousands reside in every "cell", each whispering some discrete idea tied to a larger fabric. And Anakin fails to understand this. Obi-Wan's objection is ironic, indeed, since he takes up Qui-Gon's cause at the end of the movie, threatening to train Anakin "without the approval of the Council if [he] must". He is, therefore, implicated in Anakin's fall.

    It's a war zone, it's a war zone, it's a war zone...

    Do people think repeating a falsehood at some point makes it true?

    That you fail to grasp Naboo is occupied, and not chiefly at war, might explain your apparent disgust over my comparison with Northern Ireland.

    While I can agree that the various issues surrounding an occupation are open to discussion, and Northern Ireland's are beyond the scope of this thread, it is manifestly the case -- whatever you think of political claims one way or the other -- that Northern Ireland has been occupied by military forces. (Unless you think armed troops with rifles and tanks patrolling streets and city checkpoints should be the norm for a democratic society). The situation in TPM is by no means a direct parallel, but if you cannot see that there *is* a parallel, I cannot help you.

    Quite the opposite. Qui-Gon said he would watch out for Anakin and he did -- in the physical world and from beyond the grave.

    No. What I'm saying is that TPM-Anakin is relatively without guile. Obi-Wan, by contrast, is actively looking for ROTS-Anakin, with a view to confronting him, to the death if need be, after he learns he has joined the cause of the Sith and slaughtered Younglings. The Jedi are clearly used to sneaking, too (see the start of TPM and Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon sneaking up on those battle droids on a street just outside the palace to free the queen). But Anakin is no sneak.

    Anakin sneaking onto the ship would also have made that exact part of the film more tense than it needed to be. That was sort of my reason for citing that little moment at the end: it's bold and jubilant, giving us the perspective of the children of the story, who think they're off on some grand adventure, and are excited to be openly allowed back to Naboo, leaving the cold drudgery of Coruscant far behind. It creates a nice beat and a nice burst of regal music that announces the beginning of the end. I wouldn't change that for all the world.

    Yes. Qui-Gon is a prototypical Darth Vader. (Note the re-use of Qui-Gon's funeral music to mark the birth of Vader in ROTS for one example). And you can also say that Anakin quickly assimilated the "lesson" of Qui-Gon, which is, "If you can't make it one way, make it another". Qui-Gon creates this "excuse" paradigm in Anakin. We see it re-emerge in AOTC when Padme forces Anakin to accompany her to Geonosis, right after Mace orders him to stay put, and he smiles warmly, relieved that they're working from the same page, so to speak.

    THEY HAVE EVERY BEARING ON THE STORY! That's the point: Star Wars is working on MULTIPLE LEVELS SIMULTANEOUSLY! Some things are shouted from on high, others are just snuck in there, almost as an afterthought. Qui-Gon picks up these strays/lowly lifeforms. We have two clear examples with Jar Jar and Anakin. Socially, they're both at rock-bottom, but Qui-Gon believes in them for one reason or another, and his taking sympathy on them, or showing any interest whatsoever, seems to stem from his heretical philosophy of abiding by "the living Force". As I interpret it, this means keeping these new life companions close by, regardless of what others think of him for doing so.


    It's a story.

    It's a mosaic.

    It's a tapestry.

    It's symbolic art.

    These are not mutually exclusive.

    * * *

    All of George Lucas' art works this way.

    Try watching "THX-1138" some time.

    Stylistic boldness, abstraction, elision, tessellation... the man is like a Picasso of cinema.

    He has ALWAYS worked this way. He's an editor, a graphical innovator, a visual storyteller.

    You return to his films to piece together a new narrative: one that is almost solely dependent on the visuals: mirrors, portals, inversions, etc.

    The visual field -- and control of the visual field -- is paramount to his methodology and technique. That's why he didn't even contemplate a prequel trilogy until digital technology came along and matured to a point where he could fully express ideas he'd had in utero since the days of the OT.

    Sorry, but if you don't understand this, you don't understand anything.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  20. benknobi1

    benknobi1 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Jun 12, 2002
    No. I don't think Lucas went to the planet "far" in Revenge of the Sith.


    Also, everyone, please lay off the insults. Thank You.
  21. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    @ only one kenobi
    Thank you for defending me. Not everyone would do this after the somewhat heated discussion we had. But I'm not sure this will lead anywhere, to be honest.
  22. fett 4

    fett 4 Force Ghost star 5

    Jan 2, 2000
    This will be the last time as this is about Starwars

    Your right it is beyond your scope and again it's not an occupation as Northern Ireland is part of the UK. If you want a history of the troubles and the reason troops were on the streets, I suggest you read this, so at least you have the basic idea of what you think you are talking about. I know people who lost loved ones who were murdered, both in Ulster and on the main land so I suggest you be quiet and stick to Starwars
    Eryndil likes this.
  23. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    First, a blockade is to stop all travel to and from Naboo. It would be a rather odd blockade that allows ships in but don't allow them to leave.
    Second, the blockade was KNOWN to the senate and considered legal so they have no reason to remove it. If the republic sent ships to investigate, do you think they would just look at the planet from orbit and not bother to land?
    Third, the TF had set up the blockade as some kind of protest against some new tax. If they remove it then they loose the pressure on the senate to get rid of this tax. So, they wouldn't remove the blockade as long as the tax is still there.
    Fourth, it has been what, a couple of days since the invasion started, no reason to remove the ships that soon, esp since the TF were told by Sidious that Padme was coming back.
    Fifth and finally, there is no indication that either Padme nor Qui-Gon knew that the blockade was gone so this makes their reasoning strange.

    I don't interpret that dialogue that way, Obi-Wan questions Qui-Gon choice to want to train Anakin, something he brought up earlier. Taking Anakin into battle didn't seem to be what worried Obi-Wan but the prospect of Qui-Gon again defying the council when it comes to Anakin and him getting trained.

    Also, if Qui-Gon thinks they will simply be arrested once they land then what?
    If the TF has 2-300 battle droids when Padme is arrested then Qui-Gon would be a fool to try violence. If they are arrested, why would Qui-Gon think they would live, remember the TF had tried to kill them once before so the TF isn't above murder. Also, the Jedi thinks that Maul is involved with the TF and if he is indeed a Sith then even more reason why the Jedi would be killed if they allow themselves to be arrested.
    Lastly, if Qui-Gon plans to fight once the TF try to arrest Padme then this will turn to a battle and again Anakin would be in danger.

    Actually, Nazi occupied France would seem a better analogy, if the talk about camps is accurate.
    Padme told Qui-Gon that she would take back her planet and she has made it very clear that she will sign no treaty so the only other option then is to fight. So Qui-Gon would know that a battle will break out as soon as they land, if they even get that far.
    Also, neither Qui-Gon nor Padme knows what the situation is like on Naboo, there could be a lot of fighting going on, they have no way of knowing
    Lastly, Qui-Gon was sent to draw out Maul and see if he is indeed a Sith. That will mean a battle and Qui-Gon knows first hand that Maul is quite capable. So why bring Anakin along when that would only distract him? Also this is extra odd with Anakin as the chosen one. If "bring balance" means "kill all Sith" then if Maul kills Anakin then that would be a huge victory for them as the only one that can kill all the Sith are now dead.

    Their enemies also outnumber them several thousand to one. And the TF also has destroyer droids, that the Jedi were forced to run from. And the TF also has capital ships, lots of fighters and other heavy weapons. Anakin could have remained in Palpatines/Padmes quarters on Coruscant.
    On Naboo, Anakin could have remained at the Gungan hideout. Both of which would be far safer than going into battle. And on Naboo, Qui-Gon KNEW that they will head into a war zone. They will infiltrate and assault the enemies main base.

    If Qui-Gon wanted to minimize the threat to Anakin then leave him on Coruscant or at the Gungan hideout. Both very plausible alternatives and far less risky than telling Anakin to hide in a fueled and armed fighter.

    If the blockade had still been there then their ship would have been fired upon and run a very serious risk of getting destroyed or disabled. Also, Qui-Gon earlier told Padme, "They will KILL you if you stay." So Qui-Gon obviously thinks that the TF isn't beyond killing Padme. So the ship getting fired at and possibly destroyed isn't something they can ignore.

    It would not have been very hard for Anakin to sneak onboard, simply hide in on of the Queens trunks. Or ask Jar Jar to help. Also you could have the "Wesa goin home" bit and then Qui-Gon telling Anakin to stay and then him sneaking onboard.

    Subtext is well and good but to me a story has to work on a primary level or else the secondary levels don't much matter. Anakins presence makes little to no sense in the story and the characters actions don't make much sense either. He is there because the plots needs him to be there and so he is there with little to no explanation. TPM certainly isn't the only SW film with "plot demands", ANH has the droids getting sold to Luke and the red R4 breaking down very conviniently.
    But if "Plot demands" either get to frequent or too glaring, then to me it becomes a plot contrivance and then it can bother me.

    I don't think Anakin sneaking onboard would damage "The tragedy of Darth Vader" story much. It would show Anakin as someone that cares about what is right and helping other people more than simply following orders. It would fit with how he acts in AotC where he certainly isn't above a little rule-breaking if he feels it can help others. Or have Qui-Gon and Anakin talk about the situation and Qui-Gon asking Anakin if he wants to follow him, despite the risk. Anakin becomes a bit passive in TPM, once they leave Tatooine. He simply tags along during much of what follows, he gets a bit more active once in the fighter.

    In all, I think it would have been very possible to write this a bit differently and have Anakins presence seem more organic and develop his character, Qui-Gons character and not damage the overall story.
    I am unsure but I think that an earlier version of the script did have Anakin sneak after Qui-Gon against his wishes but I don't remember where I read it.

    Well Jar Jar tagging along can also be seen as a bit odd and contrived, something other people have brought up earlier. Jar Jar is an amphibian and taking such a creature into a desert would not be very good for him. Something Jar Jar even comments on. Also he kind of sticks out, and Qui-Gon wanted to keep a low profile and not attract any attention, so bringing Jar Jar along would work counter to that end. In some earlier versions of the scripts I think Jar Jar had to go as the Naboo people didn't want him on the ship.

    Also with Jar Jar, Boss Nass said something about Jar Jar getting punished for returning to the Gungan city. Since Qui-Gon was the one who insisted that he got back, then Qui-Gon could feel responsible and take him with to spare him this.
    Second, Jar Jar is an adult and capable of making his own choices and Naboo is his home and he would want to help to free it.
    Third, Qui-Gon is very capable of leaving people behind if he needs to, he didn't bring Obi-Wan with him on Tatooine. Padme more or less forced herself into this group. Qui-Gon didn't bring Jar Jar to the Jedi temple.

    So, Jar Jar can be seen as more examples of plot demands and thus not a good explanation of Anakins presence. And Qui-Gon showed that he could leave Jar Jar behind so why not Anakin?

    Well you were the one who brought up Qui-Gons actions with Anakin and the pod race.
    It certainly shows that Qui-Gon isn't above risking other peoples lives in order to get what he wants.
    But there he had a stated reason for doing this, if Anakin wins, they get the parts they need.
    Here he brings along Anakin with little to no thought of the danger and for no apparent purpose.

    Again, why not simply deal with the issues raised and not the people making them?
    Simply because someones disagree with you doesn't mean that they are stupid.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  24. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    I enjoy a robust discussion. Nothing wrong with it. I don't think either of us broke into personal insult or personal judgement.
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  25. Sistros

    Sistros Jedi Master star 6

    Jul 24, 2010
    well this has gone well..

    although i'm a bit confused how this has gone from Anakin's behavior in ROTS to the blockade on Naboo, an entirely different film.

    Unless I missed something and have about half an hour missing from my ROTS DVD..