PT Did Lucas go too far in Revenge of the Sith?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Garrett Atkins, Feb 13, 2013.

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  1. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    You know, you really should cut back on the hyperbole. "if you don't understand this, you don't understand anything" is just that. What comes before is also full of nonsense. Trust me, I know what it is that you are claiming, but I think much of it is what you have added to it.....you have stretched this idea a little further than the reality of what is on screen can account for.

    Its a story....that's right, and what I see are superfluous elements added into the story which serve no further purpose; I see contrivance in the scene setting. Some of the most obvious being Anakin being taken along into a war zone (I don't know what else to call an area which has recently been invaded, is garrisoned by that invading army and all of its weapons, and has detainment camps). There's also the contrivance of having Qui-Gon stumped at not being able to get the parts to fix a very expensive (ie it is worth alot of money) ship on a planet where Obi-Wan and Luke buy a ride out of of by selling a beat up old speeder.

    I would not think to describe somebody who does not see those contrivances as stupid, as simply not able to 'get' it because they don't understand, I'll simply point them out. Nor would I think to judge someobody's intelligence upon the basis that they didn't see it the same way as me. I'd be interested to know why they don't.

    Let's take an example you gave of where it is considered that 'cleverness' is important..

    Here's how it goes. I think it is contrived to invoke the 'power' of Anakin and to set up this 'theme' of symbiosis. But that's all it is there for. The 'theme' really doesn't play out very powerfully. Midiclorians are never again a major part of the discussion. Same goes for the 'living force' which you have contrived a whole meaning from and for ....but that is not explained verbally, visually or any other way - you've added that yourself. As for it being to convince us how dogmatic the Jedi were....what? Says who? Says you. I have pointed out the, to me, obvious difference between the OT descriptions of the Force and the PT. That there is a difference is not difficult to see (though some would argue otherwise). But that we are to determine how dogmatic they are through that? Nah. You've decided that. You have added that meaning to it. It is not there but for intelligence, it is there because you choose to see it that way.

    The same with Qui-Gon as the prototypical Darth Vader, I would be very surprised to find that was a theme that GL was aiming for.

    And, as for "Anakin is no sneak..." He lied to the Jedi Order about his marriage to Padmé, he didn't bother to tell them about his murder spree on Tatooine or the ....details of Dooku's demise. He is perfectly capable of sneaking.

    Honestly, telling people they're just not as clever as you are because they don't agree with you, even believing it.... who is it, really, that lacks understanding at a basic level?
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  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    (delete)
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Feb 17, 2013
  3. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    My dad knows also knows people who lost loved ones because of "the troubles". And my mom narrowly avoided being killed by an IRA bomb in 1974 (she was about one hundred yards from where it exploded, drinking with friends at the time in a neighbouring pub, celebrating her 18th birthday), which led to a terrible miscarriage of justice. If we're throwing wikipedia links around, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six So please, don't threaten and posture and dare to tell me what I can say. Violence taints us all. I have every damn right to make any damn analogy I please.


    There is a sickness in the fan community: an unconscious obsession with bashing the prequels at every turn. Of course, this thread is meant to be about ROTS, not TPM, but why would a person with an axe to grind stop at ROTS? Any chance to draw people into a fight over a prequel -- any prequel -- and they'll take it. Pardon me for defending a prequel which also happens to be a favourite film of mine from yet more attacks (and then enduring a load of attacks myself). I clearly shouldn't have bothered.
    Last edited by Cryogenic, Feb 17, 2013
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  4. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    you're pardoned ;)
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  5. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Thank you!
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  6. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    And others have the right to put you right where you are factually wrong.



    There is no 'sickness', unconscious or otherwise. There are opinions, and they will differ. As to the prequels being 'bashed' - there wasn't an awful lot of that going on. In fact what there was was a discussion regarding varying interpretations of some of the themes that are seen. That is hardly the sort of discussion that would be had if nobody liked or bothered about the prequels.

    And, it should be clear, that any 'attacks' were directed against the idea that you would judge people's intelligence and 'wothyness' on their agreement with the way you 'get' it - on your opinion.

    On that note I will just add that, in answer to the question posed by the OP (or, what I assume the question really is) no, I don't think he went too far. We do not see Anakin kill the 'younglings', and the full horror of his turn is encapsulated in that young Jedi's flinch, mirroring the young Anakin's flinch as he entered Watto's shop. He has become that slaver, has become in every way the very thing he swore to destroy.

    The only real on-screen horror are Anakin's amputation and immolation scenes. The amputation comes as a numbing hammer blow. No slow-mo gore, just, at the end of a violently balletic duel, the sudden shock of destruction. Its over. Then Obi-Wan's emotional recoil.

    I wondered for a while what it was that got me about ROTS, it is among my favourite films; the dialogue is stilted most of the time; the tale unfolds scamperingly quickly toward the end, to the point that I cannot truly see Anakin's turn as believable. But, I suspend disbelief because it is a beautiful film. Darkly beautiful admittedly, but stunning in its palette. It is the Barque of Danté, or John Martin's Apocalypse or The Great Day of His Wrath. Added to the stunning visuals is one of the best (if not the best) scores I can remember.

    The killing of the 'younglings' , and linking that with Vader's ultimate demise in ROTJ makes me think of Colonel Kurtz in Apocalypse Now - justifying his actions till the end, but really, truly - deep down - just wishing for his own death - for his own sake and because he knows it is the only way for what he has begun to end. He wants his son to know all of it. The Horror.

    Is it 'bashing' the prequels to understand that they work for me (at least ROTS does) on those levels, and bemoan that, had GL allowed more time for the story to unfold I think it could have been even better?
    Yanksfan likes this.
  7. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Well to answer the OP’s question, did Lucas go to far. To me, probably not.

    Oh very well, a more in-depth response.

    NOTE: All of this is my OPINION/IMPRESSIONS of the films. I don’t say that this is the ONLY way to interpret the events and characters but this how it came across to ME.

    AotC: About Shmi. I can see that Anakin would be very bothered about his bad dreams and combined with him missing his mother in TPM and apparently never seeing her again, has left some emotional scars. I do have to wonder why Anakin/Obi-Wan/the Jedi/Padme never lifted a finger to help Shmi in the ten years that have passed. This inaction makes them seem a little cold hearted or uncaring.

    But back to Anakin. When his mother dies in his arms, all the emotions he has been trying to suppress for ten years come out. And I can see that he would be very angry, horribly sad, crushed by grief and feeling unbelievable rage. So what we see him do, kill three Tuskens, is quite plausible. I would find it more odd if Anakin just left without saying a word.

    But what happens later, when he tells Padme what he did, that he killed every last Tusken, down to the smallest child. Then things get iffy with me. Given what we see and what Anakin said, I got the impression that he killed all the Tuskens with his light saber. Since he killed all of them, those that tried to run he would have hunted down. Then he would have to have searched all the huts for those that tried to hide and killed them as well. All of this makes the killings somewhat methodical or systematical. Anakin wasn’t just out of control insane, he seemed to be able to able to conduct a systematic search and was determined enough to chase after those that tried to run and kill them. In short his intent seemed to be to wipe out every last Tusken and he didn’t stop until that task was accomplished.

    All of this would have taken a bit of time, say 15-30 minutes. Now either Anakin was totally consumed by rage by that long or he didn’t want to stop. Either of which makes this act something beyond a brief crime under insanity or manslaughter. Also Anakin SHOUD have told Obi-Wan or the Jedi about what he had done. He had broken several of their rules and he knew it. They had jurisdiction over him and he should have submitted himself to them and accepted their judgment.

    On to RotS, in a strange way, Anakin killing Tusken children in AotC lessened the shock of him killing the jedi children. Sure the circumstances were somewhat different but the bottom line is still that Anakin has already murdered children. Doing it AGAIN is less horrible than if it had been the first time. Had Anakin been able to get a hold of himself in AotC and only killed the adult Tusken but not the children but here he does not stop.

    Also after he has cut of Mace’s hand Anakin rather quickly goes from “what have I done” to “All the Jedi must die.” He very quickly agrees with Palpatine that all Jedi must die, even the children. Yes he has turned and the Dark Side is corrupting him but there is no hesitation that all Jedi must die. Even Jedi that clearly wouldn’t know about “the plot against Palpatine” or that are no immediate threat. Anakin kills them all without hesitation. I didn’t see someone who was forced to do a terrible thing, in fact Anakin seemed somewhat, perhaps not eager, but he certainly didn’t complain when told to go and kill jedi, even jedi children.

    To me if Anakin had offered some other alternatives, like killing the adult jedi but simply arresting the jedi children. And Palpatine could seemingly agree to that. The raid happens and the children look to Anakin for help but he hands them to the troopers and then leaves. When he is gone, Palpatine contacts the soldiers and tells them to shoot. Then on Mustafar he is shown as more ruthless as the Dark Side has worked its poison on him longer. This might have made the post turn seem less abrupt. Lucas wanted to make Anakins turn slower and more gradual than Luke’s and mostly it is. But after Mace’s death, Anakin very quickly does Palpatines bidding. I also find it odd that he never comments on Palpatines admission that he doesn’t actually have the means to stop death. Instead he offers some rather vague promises and Anakin accepts it without question.

    So does the turn work? Mostly yes, there are some bits that could have been done better and perhaps it could have been a bit less rushed. But that is an overall problem with RotS, the whole movie feels rushed and far too much stuff has to happen. All the time spent on the uninteresting Griev could have been better spent elsewhere.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Feb 18, 2013
  8. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    I don't think this is the appropriate place for a discussion of real-life politics, especially when the subject is so contentious and likely to cause offence. Is it possible to keep the RL stuff to the relevant boards and return this thread to the original topic? Thank you :)
    benknobi1 likes this.
  9. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    return this thread to the original topic? Thank you :)

    ---


    what's your opinion then? ;)


    Samual Vimes:

    But what happens later, when he tells Padme what he did, that he killed every last Tusken, down to the smallest child. Then things get iffy with me. Given what we see and what Anakin said, I got the impression that he killed all the Tuskens with his light saber. Since he killed all of them, those that tried to run he would have hunted down. Then he would have to have searched all the huts for those that tried to hide and killed them as well. All of this makes the killings somewhat methodical or systematical. Anakin wasn’t just out of control insane, he seemed to be able to able to conduct a systematic search and was determined enough to chase after those that tried to run and kill them. In short his intent seemed to be to wipe out every last Tusken and he didn’t stop until that task was accomplished.

    All of this would have taken a bit of time, say 15-30 minutes. Now either Anakin was totally consumed by rage by that long or he didn’t want to stop. Either of which makes this act something beyond a brief crime under insanity or manslaughter. Also Anakin SHOUD have told Obi-Wan or the Jedi about what he had done. He had broken several of their rules and he knew it. They had jurisdiction over him and he should have submitted himself to them and accepted their judgment.
    ---------------


    couldn't have said it better
    Last edited by TheMadHatter, Feb 18, 2013
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  10. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    Personally, I don't think that the movie is too dark. The reasons for Anakin's actions have already been discussed (at length!) on this and other threads, and I don't want to rehash old debates. In short, ROTS needed to be dark in order to reflect the tragedy of Anakin's fall and show why it was so hard for him to come back from the Dark Side. When it comes down to it, Star Wars is a saga about about good and evil, and sadly evil is kinda dark.
    Last edited by Eryndil, Feb 18, 2013
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  11. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    Don't know why but I thought of you (that random lady on the star wars forums who won't watch the second half of ROTS) when I just watched this:

  12. Darth Xalfrea Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2013
    star 3
    The death of the Younglings I think gets more attention because he basically kills the future of the Jedi as well.

    Other Star Wars material pretty much delves into that issue as well.
  13. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Did Lucas go too far in Revenge of the Sith?

    Uh...no. But he should have gone too far in the first two.
  14. Catsmeow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2012
    star 1
    As my father told me after seeing this movie, "That man belongs in a mental institution!" Besides that, gosh, of course Lucas went too far! Good god killing children! There were more children than adults in the theatre when I saw it back in 2005. Anyway, besides this Lucas went too far and Anakin needs prozac really, really bad!
  15. darthzac14 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 3
    I don't know if this has been mentioned or shown:
    [IMG]
  16. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    Didn't Lucas make it clear that ROTS wasn't going to be as kid friendly? Didn't people see the PG-13 rating?

    Do you think ROTS would have been rated PG-13 if the immolation wasn't seen?
    Last edited by BoromirsFan, Feb 25, 2013
  17. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Oh, he made it very clear that it wouldn't be kid-friendly. That wasn't the reason Lucas "went too far" though, I think he went too far from a storytelling perspective.
  18. EvilQ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 8, 2013
    star 1
    More like
    More like he didn't go far enough in the first two prequels, and had to cram too much into the third.
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    He could have started the downfall in TPM and I still would have found some of the acts of ROTS purely arbitrary.
  20. akrunner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    i personally wish all 3 movies had been more like ROTS, more serious and dark, not all the silliness, putting stupid scenes in just cause Lucas thought theyd be funny. I think they finally got things right in ROTS like dialogue, the cgi troopers were much better, realistic moving, the droids werent as cartoonish, i liked Greivous and the Magnaguards, there were some epic sword fights, beheadings, great battles on multiple planets, clearly my favorite of the 3.
  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    [face_thinking]
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  22. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    I am really happy they saved the dark for ROTS.

    Star wars isn't ultimately about darkness. its about overcoming it. Its even more impressive to me how TPM and AOTC have shades of darkness in them. The whole anakin confessing to the slaughter of tuskens is really riveting to me. The acting, the pain, his loss.
  23. Eggrert Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 1
    I don't think Lucas went too far; in fact, you could argue that he didn't go far enough (the stormtroopers execute most of the Jedi). My problem is that the pacing is off; it's just all too much, too soon. Any conflict within Anakin (and it's there) is apparently washed away as soon as he's dubbed "Darth Vader." It's a Jekyll & Hyde transformation that's at odds with the idea that Palpatine has been slowly manipulating Anakin for more than ten years.
  24. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    it's pretty ridiculous that people have to put a disclaimer before or after their posts stating "this is my opinion, please don't get offended" This is the internet. Some on these boards have skin as thick as tissue paper.
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  25. Zane the Reaper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 1
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