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PT Did Lucas go too far in Revenge of the Sith?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Garrett Atkins, Feb 13, 2013.

  1. darthzac14

    darthzac14 Jedi Knight star 3

    Nov 8, 2012
    I actually brought this up today at lunch with a couple of friends and we all agreed that we all thought Lucas didn't go far enough and that it could have shown Vader killing a Jedi. He killed Cin Drallig in a hologram and that's it. I actually checked and that's the only Jedi that he's seen killing. Yeah he kills the Separatist Council but that's it.
  2. Reveen

    Reveen Jedi Knight star 3

    Oct 4, 2012
    Anakin should've taken Mace down in a fair fight, in place of the Sidious fight. Which I thought was unnecessary for a whole mess of reasons.

    If his killing of Windu wasn't spur of the moment we wouldn't need him killing children to know it's serious business.
  3. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
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  4. Chainmail_Jedi

    Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Padawan star 2

    Jan 26, 2013
    the tear is cause his hair is in his eye
    Cryogenic and Garrett Atkins like this.
  5. Eggrert

    Eggrert Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jul 12, 2005
    I always just assumed that that was sweat...his eyes and expression don't look very regretful to me.
  6. KilroyMcFadden

    KilroyMcFadden Jedi Knight star 3

    Oct 31, 2012
    I understand that what the actor and director intended to portray in that scene was regret, but Hayden just didn't sell it. His facial expression just looks angry which makes it reasonably easy for a casual viewer to mistake it for sweat.

    GL and HC should have reviewed movies where actors portrayed regret. They could have at least copied someone else's good performance for their movie.
  7. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 13, 2011
    Gotta disagree, it should be obvious to anyone it is a tear of regret. I can see why it could be interpreted as an angry look, but in context it seems fairly straight-forward. With the transition from Obi-Wan confronting Padme to Mustafar (and the juxtapostion of the trickling fountain and the raging lavafalls), plus the view of the dead Seperatists, the music, and Anakin's kind of crazed look a few moments before, to me it is a significant, and well-executed moment. A somewhat contrasting (to other post-turn scenes) vision of Vader's inner-turmoil. Moments like this, for me, are on par with anything from the OT. Who'd have thought watching the originals we would actually see Vader (or what is left of Anakin) cry?

    Back on topic, I agree that Lucas could have gone further in showing some of Anakin's acts against the Jedi. The moment implying that Anakin kills the future Jedi is quite powerful, and I am aware Lucas was going for something different in style, but I wish it was more like the ROTS video game. The Temple raid stage was dark.
    With what we were presented with... the hologram recording gave a hint of what had happened (on a side-note besides fighting Cin Drallig you also see him choking a Padawan, with an (IMO) symbolic touch as the youngling fades out of the recording as he dies). Plus the deleted scene of Anakin killing Shak Tii, while possibly a little quick and pointless, shows us a much needed glimse into what the Temple raid looked like as Anakin walks back out into the hallway.
    I'm actually essentially in two minds about whether Lucas went too far. Seeing Vader hunting down Jedi would have been great, but I can't see any way it was executed being more intense than Vader confronting the younglings. The shot of Vader standing there silently as the younglings timidly come out from their hiding spot is possibly the darkest image in the saga. With the music it gets to me every time. But while I long for more scenes of the purge, I wish Anakin hadn't turned on Padme in the fashion he did. Totally neccessary to portray the ironic tragedy of the story (especially seeing as Padme had no idea Obi-Wan was with her), but it makes the darkside seem like a mental disorder, which I'm not sure was a satisfying portayal of Anakin's fall. I didn't like Lucas' summary "Sith are quick to anger." It seems too simple, I personally like to think that Anakin is this unstable and quick to anger because is an unnatural amalgamation of Jedi and Sith, and has not yet fully become Vader. Don't get me wrong, the turn works beautifully for me, but the timeline as Anakin slides ( as he does for the whole film really) could have been better executed.
    Conversely however, something quite underrated about Anakin's character arc is the gradual progression somehow also coupled with an instant turn. Both trilogies have it inversely... In TPM Anakin is completely good, then in AOTC Anakin's loss of his mother forms a spark that will progress gradually until the more instantaneous moment he pledges to Sidious, after giving in to his fear and helping kill Mace. Whereafter, he sells his soul (and Yoda senses the shift in the force from this action). Anakin then gradually slides further into the dark, and ends up seeing Padme as a tool for more power, a complete contradiction of what he set out to achieve by joining Sidious in the first place. Inversely, in ANH, Vader is completely evil. When he learns of his son, a spark (in ESB) begins the opposite slide. Luke, who Vader at first sees as merely a tool fo more power, gradually starts to be cared about, and seen as something other than a tool for power, the exact opposite of his slide with Padme. The two 3/6 turns both involve a moment with an instantaneous shift, where Anakin sides with last Sith over the "dominant" Mace, and Vader sides with the last Jedi over the "dominant" Sidious. It's poetic.
    But I'm ranting... to summarise, generally I feel that style of ROTS is satisfying enough that I can be invested in it as much, if not more, than I would if I could see Vader's involvement in the Jedi purge. What we get is a complex tapestry, and a quite powerful space-opera.
    Cryogenic, Neonic and Thoix Heoro like this.
  8. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    That's a damn good scene.

    I can't agree with the youngling scene though. It never really affected me. Maybe its Anakins scowling. Idk.

    Most horrible scene imo: Tarkin: "Continue with the operation. You may fire when ready." Tarkin sounds like he is ordering someone to bring him a sandwich. Makes my hair stand up. Vader choking that rebel is pretty horrible too.
  9. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005
    "I've got a tear duct and it won't stop weeping!"

    Would explain why he looks so annoyed.

    I imagine that being on Mustafar, overlooking all that lava, with all that smog and filth in the air, is sorta like peeling fifty onions at once.

    Should have had his nose running, too.


    His tear is the only drop of moisture in an infernal world. And it's an excretion.

    I've previously noted that juxtaposition you just wrote out. It's good, isn't it?

    Really gives the prequel trilogy a Promethean power, IMO.

    Its final 45 mins are both moving and exciting.

    Also, I know you're the man for these... parallels.

    I realized that both AOTC and ROTS conclude with "journeys to/from the underworld".

    Well, there's an escape motif in there, at least. The clue is:

    Rhymed cockpit shots of Dooku (Obi-Wan's "grandfather") and Obi-Wan leaving the carnage they've created behind (Geonosis and Mustafar).

    Framed from their left side in ships travelling frame-left/background streaming left-to-right. One looks smug, the other crushed. They cede control of their vessels to droids.

    And they carry precious bounty/cargo (a small rhyme with TESB). Small embryonic matter: a holographic Death Star (the plans) and twins in the womb (Padme's bump). Then they land with the cargo in spacious hangar bays. A moody/tempestuous Coruscant set to the Emperor's theme also features.

    It somewhat necessarily has to be something approaching a "mental disorder" on a compressed timescale. It's sort of a disorder of the spirit, of the soul. Anakin's midi count is important here. Luke snapped and almost fell to the Dark Side all of a sudden in one pregnant moment in ROTJ, so Anakin's turn, if anything, is more prolonged. But again, midis. Anakin has a lot of 'em and is probably more open to corruption than the other Jedi. In a cut scene for AOTC, Mace tells Obi-Wan that Yoda is probing through the shroud of the Dark Side in seclusion, and that it's a dangerous process so must be left alone. Dangerous, perhaps, because Yoda himself has such a high count: even with his strong mind, he cannot easily resist being metaphysically corrupted, if you like, when he tastes those noxious fumes, because the midis allow a lot of Force to flow into him.

    "When the Jedi learn was has transpired here..."

    From the -->

    v. tran·spired, tran·spir·ing, tran·spires
    To give off (vapor containing waste products) through the pores of the skin or the stomata of plant tissue.
    1. To become known; come to light.
    2. Usage Problem To come about; happen or occur.
    3. To give off vapor containing waste products, as through animal or plant pores.
    [French transpirer, from Medieval Latin trnsprre : Latin trns-, trans- + Latin sprre, to breathe.]

    Sith Lord gets his face burned off, smoke rises ... and a young Jedi falls.

    "You can see the smoke from here."

    The smoke of Mustafar is further implicated in his fall. Those choking fumes are like some pure embodiment of the Dark Side. It's like the Emperor sent his young protege there on purpose. Anakin's thinking would be further clouded.

    If there were conspiracy theorists in the GFFA, they might talk about political leaders keeping their slave population in chains by exposing them to bad chemicals and the like -- to say nothing of degraded cultural memes -- and pumping them with drugs/more chemicals (THX -- it even SOUNDS like a drug) to keep them dumb, dependent, and just productive enough to do their job and no more. "Go to the Mustafar system..." / "a galaxy far, far away...."

    This is nice! It's a sort of exponential awakening of the "Vader" and "Anakin" personas respectively: a gathering storm.

    Yet the conclusion of the journey -- Episode VI -- feels more satisfying, I think, because we hope the Anakin character has learned something; Luke, too. And the killing of the Emperor, as well as the ruination of his second space-station complex, is charged with symbolism, I think.


    Oh, and... nice to see you again, HD! :D
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  10. Eggrert

    Eggrert Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jul 12, 2005
    ...well, it really doesn't accord with what we've just seen of Anakin (showing no emotion as he ignites his lightsaber in front of the kids, killing the Separatists and not even letting Nute Gunray finish his plea for mercy, etc.). Imagine if we had seen a shot of Tarkin "crying" after Alderaan was destroyed. It just wouldn't have fit.

    In Anakin's case, the fact that he immediately turns psychotic again (against his pregnant wife, no less) makes it all the more likely that it's an angry look (rather than a regretful one). If it is supposed to show the conflict within him, it's not executed very well (imo).
  11. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 13, 2011
    Good to hear from you Cryo.

    Lol you caught me reciting your observation. I notice that every time I watch ROTS now, it's an interesting contrast that I think re-enforces the isolation Anakin has from Obi-Wan and Padme, and his true (previous) identity.

    Hadn't thought of that. You could also say Dooku leaves with a metaphorical piece of Anakin after taking his arm, where Obi-Wan leaves after taking a larger part of him. The bond Anakin previously shared with Obi-Wan makes his "escape" more crushing, and more influential (as much as Dooku's actions have set things in motion) in sealing Anakin's fate as Vader.

    Agreed. ROTS certainly adds a new dimension to Luke coming close to turning at the end of the saga. Watching ROTJ without this prior knowledge it isn't as clear what would happen if Luke struck Vader down, but seeing Anakin turn after giving into fear and hate, this scene really holds more weight. Although I think if Luke did kill Vader he would be more likely to try and kill Sidious directly after, whereas Anakin finds himself in a position where Sidious is all he has left. Off-topic, this just reminded me of the added impact of the Emperor's line "Only now, at the end, do you understand." After watching it as the conclusion of six movies that moment gives me chills now. Also, I think this is where Vader and the re-emerging Anakin reach a truth of their own as he sees that both Vader and Luke were entirely expendable to Sidious, and I think this makes his final redemption make more sense.

    Hadn't read that scene. Interesting. Whether a higher midi count makes you more susceptible to the darkside is a point of contention, it would certainly seem that way from what we see in the movies. And if Anakin was indeed created by a darkside influence of midichlorians, it would make perfect sense that a quick turn would fit. I wonder (if midis tell you the will of the force) what Anakin was hearing when he turned. IMO it is entirely possible that the force going out of balance temporarily wasn't necessarilly against the will of the force, although on the other hand I think Anakin was corrupting the force's true nature by causing the shift in the force by joining Sidious. His mere presence in the living force, I think, made his unnatural turn more of a curse on the Jedi, and more of a symbolic abbandoment of the life force generated by the Jedi. With the "lightside's" loss of Anakin it feels to me that Anakin's turn caused the force to abandon the Jedi, even if they were very strong influences on the the force's state of balance.

    True. I like that Threepio at the end of each trilogy comments "Let us leave this dreadful place" (red) and "And you said it was pretty here!" (green).

    Thanx. :)

    Indeed. Like I hinted at before, Anakin's realisation about Sidious and Luke is definitely a huge moment of impact as Vader's lesson re-ignites Anakin's soul.
    I don't know what to add, but I love that the Emperor is still shooting lightning as he falls down the shaft. A symbolic point that (to me) represents the essential pettiness of an Empero, and the fact that his hate had consumed him to the point of madness.
    Cryogenic likes this.
  12. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Wait, so the same "casual viewers" running around complaining Anakin was an "emo kid" also thought he was sweating from his eyeballs?

    Regret usually happens after you've done something, not before. There is also a big difference between killing the younglings and killing the Separatists which is pretty much always overlooked. Killing the younglings was something unsavory that Anakin had to do, but they had no significant personal connection to him. Killing the Separatists, Gunray in particular, was personal. It involved giving in to hatred, and thus a greater descent into the dark side, and thus a steeper decline along the "selling your soul" slope.

    False equivalency is much fun. It wouldn't fit because - surprise - Tarkin's story arc is completely different. Tarkin was never a decent person, wasn't a Force user turned to the dark side and wasn't in the process of betraying his earlier life and everything he once stood for.

    Not getting it.
  13. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005

    Yeah. There's also a big water motif in the prequels:

    - Qui-Gon runs over a patch of water in the middle of a stampede
    - Jar Jar takes Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to Otoh Gunga -- an underwater city -- where we hear ethereal chorals marking their approach
    - The Gungans use weapons (boomas) reminiscent of water bombs (water and electricity)
    - Padme's apartment in AOTC is a sort of electric-blue (sky/water) and she sleeps under sheets of moire silk (ditto Anakin on Naboo)
    - Anakin and Padme court at a lake retreat and overlook a lake at several points
    - Kamino is a roiling water world: water in violent, conflicted form; and this is intercut with the lakeside courtship on Naboo
    - There was an additional water-based action segment involving Anakin and Obi-Wan -- shot in a real water tank -- cut from the opening sequence of ROTS
    - Palpatine and Anakin watch a ballet that seems to involve suspended water globules
    - The separatist droid army rises from the water on Kashyyyk
    - Order 66: Obi-Wan and his steed fall into a watery pool when blasted from a rockface; Stass Allie is riding over a lake when her speeder bike is shot down
    - Mustafar is like a hellish version of Naboo (lakes/waterfalls)
    - It's lashing down with rain when the Emperor arrives at the medical facility with Anakin (like Kamino)
    - Vader smashes some vials of liquid when reacting to Padme's death
    - Padme looks like she is drowning in her casket; this completes a protracted association between Padme and water

    Compare all this to instances of water in the OT. Water in the OT is much scarcer. The two trilogies notably begin with mutually "opposite" planets: Naboo (Padme/water) for the prequels and Tatooine (Anakin/sand) for the originals. However, there is, undeniably, a water motif in the OT, as well: e.g., moisture farmers (also mentioned in TPM and first seen in AOTC), trash compactor, bacta tank, Dagobah, Jabba boiling frog-like creatures (also seen in TPM), the Mon Calamari aliens and their barnacled ships in the Battle of Endor.

    I do love that transition in ROTS, though. It's quite Stentorian in a way: from gentle trickling water to roaring lava (which lashes up against BLUE shields). A gigantic segue.

    Good points. I can't believe I overlooked the maiming of Anakin by both characters -- excellent catch.

    Oh, I agree -- the final duel is infinitely deepened. I disagree that Luke would immediately try and kill the Emperor, though. I think he'd be just as enslaved as Anakin. This is the treachery of the Emperor: his ploys revolve around fatalism -- reducing options and narrowing hope.

    It's on the AOTC DVD (second disc).

    That's an intriguing way to look at it. It also enriches something the Emperor says as he's telling Anakin to attack the Jedi in the temple: "We will catch them off-balance".

    Whoa! Nice spot!

    Hey... it's a major link! :cool:

    I sort of think the Emperor was "broken" at that point. There's a rhyme in ROTS with Sidious continuing to pump lightning at Mace even as it appears -- his artfulness aside -- that he's damaging himself, claiming he can't "hold on" any longer. When he's battling Yoda and Yoda begins to deflect the lightning, Sidious kind of wails and panics but doesn't stop zapping. An interesting point for a character so "in control", but it seems he doesn't actually have full control over his powers. "You mean it controls my actions?" / "Partially."
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  14. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    If we're considering the issue of whether a high ( Anakin-level ) midichlorian count would make someone more susceptible to a dark side turn, whether or not he was created by "a darkside influence" would be irrelevant. The end result - a being with an unusually high midichlorian count - would be the same regardless of whether it was prompted by a darksider or the Force itself. Midichlorians are midichlorians, they're not going to have "evil dark side mojo" on them even if a darksider was involved.

    But do we really know this to be the case?
  15. deadly jp

    deadly jp Jedi Knight star 1

    Jul 27, 2014
    George lucas should of never included the youngling scene, Geogre took it to the next lvl.
    Master Jordan likes this.
  16. MrCody

    MrCody Jedi Knight star 1

    Dec 4, 2013
    this post annoys me. You have so many fans complaining that star wars needs to go darker but when something dark happens they complain
  17. Yanksfan

    Yanksfan Force Ghost star 5

    Nov 3, 2000
    Yeah, I have no qualms with Lucas showing Anakin's actions in ROTS. It was necessary. Call Vader "tragic" all you want, but when we were introduced to him in ANH in 1977, our first impression was supposed to be: this is one very scary, evil guy. In ESB, IMO, he is even more so. Trying to manipulate his own son for power, killing insubordinates with barely a thought, torturing and freezing Han….oh, god. He was *deliciously* evil in that film. I love ESB….

    Oh, wait, where was I? Oh, yes. ROTS. My point being, that given this evil character we're introduced to in the OT, then he better damn well do some pretty horrible things on his way to the Dark Side. It only makes sense. In fact, I was convinced before Episode III came out that Lucas would *not* go as far as he did. I was worried about it, to be honest. But I have to say, the "darkness" of ROTS ended up being a pleasant surprise.

    Yeah, I said "pleasant" surprise. Sorry. But as disturbing/terrible as that youngling scene was, it was also chilling and memorable. And it was also the single most effective moment in showing that Anakin had crossed a line and there was NO going back. Nice to meet you, Lord Vader. We've been expecting you…..
  18. lovelikewinter

    lovelikewinter Jedi Knight star 4

    May 28, 2014
    The kid with the annoying voice reminded me so much of Jake Llyod. Was that intentional in showing that Anakin was burning the bridges of the past? Or am I looking to much into it?

    I wish Lucas had gone all the way and showed Anakin striking the kiddies with the lightsaber.
  19. Samnz

    Samnz Jedi Master star 3

    Sep 4, 2012
    One should really start to collect all "complaints" fans ever have expressed about the Prequels. I'm sure for every single complaint that was made, there is at least another complainer who wanted the exact opposite. Egoism is breathtaking and fascinating at once.

    Oh yes, the "kid with the annoying voice" ... poor kid, not allowed to have a kid's voice because old creepy people find that annoying ... wonder why kindergarten teachers don't turn into evil Darth Vaders all the time, with all of these "annoying" kids voices around them...

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  20. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Master star 4

    May 1, 2014
    My only gripe relates to the pacing of the story across the whole PT and ROTS could have been darker had the last half of the film depicted Anakin in the Vader suit junting down Jedi.
    lovelikewinter likes this.
  21. sharkymcshark

    sharkymcshark Jedi Knight star 3

    Dec 12, 2013

    The problem is that it's a moronic thing to say.

    Fan X complains about the prequels being not dark enough, fan Y complains about the prequels being too dark - so what? Movie criticism isn't conducted by a hive mind, and saying that some people have the opposite opinion to some other people doesn't show anything, at all, except that people have different opinions on different things.
  22. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Aug 19, 2003
    no it's great.
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  23. SimitarLikeTusk

    SimitarLikeTusk Jedi Knight star 3

    Mar 10, 2014
    I dont think Vader was so evil though. He always seemed like kind of a reasonable villain. It was the emperor and Tarkin that were the evil ones. And of course he ended up a good guy. So yes Lucas did go way too far establishing Vader as a truly evil guy when that didnt fit at all.
    And fanboys always think they want things to be dark. Because they equate dark with maturity and like the idea theyre fans of something mature when those have told them their love of sci fi is immature. But fanboys are horrible people for filmmakers to listen to
  24. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Force Ghost star 8

    Nov 20, 2012
    Vader in ROTS was more mopey than evil.
    thejeditraitor likes this.
  25. lovelikewinter

    lovelikewinter Jedi Knight star 4

    May 28, 2014

    The Prequel Trilogy: The story about how a mopey kid becomes the ultimate evil badass.