CT Did Lucas know Darth was Luke's father in ANH?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Mooncake, Feb 4, 2013.

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  1. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

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    The scripts, treatments, movies?
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  2. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    I would imagine things like Luke's father appearing as a Force ghost in the earlier draft of ESB. The distinction he made between Vader and Luke's father when originally talking about the backstory. That sort of evidence
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  3. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

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    Exactly.
  4. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    That's only evidence if you assume that (1) Lucas' motivation for the first draft was to create a complete blueprint for the story, and that (2) Brackett's first draft was based on a complete disclosure of Lucas' ideas for the story.

    You may also reasonably assume that (1) Lucas' motivation in creating the first draft was to get something going and to get some ideas for story flow, and (2) he wanted to keep the twist secret for as long as possible including from anyone the staff so didn't inform Brackett of it but just described the general theme of temptation for her to work with.

    I know of no evidence to support ether set of assumptions, except that Lucas did indeed work hard to keep the twist secret for as many people as possible for as long as possible.
  5. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

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    If there were the only piece of evidence, you might have a point.
  6. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    OK. So what other "evidence" is there?
  7. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    I'm sorry but...how can you get "some ideas for story flow" if the major plot-point is omitted? This is just.....rubbish. You don't pay someone for a draft screenplay without telling them a major storyline - if you don't trust someone you are employing to keep such a secret then you wouldn't employ them.

    He 'kept it secret' because he didn't know. When he talked of making prequels he spoke of how it would, of course, end with Vader killing Luke's father and then Obi-Wan and Vader's duel. Much as it might seem (from a certain pov) that Obi-Wan's lines, and acting seem to fit perfectly with the idea of Vader being Luke's father that really doesn't make much sense. Would you write Obi-Wan a line where he wistfully remembers the mass murderer Darth Vader when they were younger? Would you write Obi-Wan's words so.....unambiguously? He talks of Darth Vader being a young apprentice of his. He wasn't - that doesn't even fit with the retcon. He even calls Vader "Darth" during their duel - so Darth was clearly his name at that time.
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  8. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    That's goofy. There's a lot more happening in that film apart from the plot twist.

    In any case, Lucas kept the twist secret for as long as possible. The reason for that is that starting with casting and preproduction, *lots* of people get to see the script.



    And I'm asking for the evidence for that assertion.



    You're getting off-topic. But, to answer: obviously, and obviously.



    Again, you're getting off-topic. Anyway, Obi-Wan says "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights." I don't see anything that doesn't fit with the "retcon."


    Lolwut?
    Last edited by Count Yubnub, Feb 19, 2013
  9. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

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    Looks like people have already pointed it out in this thread.
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  10. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

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    The lengths people will go to make it seem like Lucas had it planned out all along...
  11. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    Curiously, the only "evidence" I see that people bring up is the Brackett draft, and as I said accepting that as "evidence" depends on a set of assumptions I don't find remotely plausible.
  12. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    Are you referring to me?
  13. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

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    You don't find it remotely plausible that a screenwriter would be told the correct plot points of the movie he or she was writing?
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  14. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    Not in this case, no. The "major plot point" here is that Luke is tempted by Vader with the dark side.
  15. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

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    Why would you assume Lucas was hiding things from Brackett? Is that really the most logical assumption?
  16. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    What's 'goofy' is the idea that a first dreft is written without the input of the film-maker. There would have been discussions as to what was required within the draft. Brackett won't have introduced Luke's father without input from George Lucas. Why would you pay someone (and remember that it was his money, that's what lead to his falling out people during the making of ESB) to write an early draft and completely mislead them? The idea is nuts.


    No matter how much evidence is put before you you will continue to ignore it, going as far as to suggest that Lucas would pay to have a draft script written and mislead the author...





    See. Quite how it is off-topic when we are relating to how Obi-Wan talks of Darth Vader and what happened to Luke's father in a discussion about whether Lucas knew all along that they were one and the same person is a mystery to me, but let us look a little further into what he actually says....




    Again, not sure how it is off-topic but, as you say, Obi-Wan says that it was a young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine.... He never had a young pupil named Darth Vader - a distinction he makes clear in his later explanation to young Luke. His apprentice was named Anakin Skywalker, and Darth Vader didn't exist until he destroyed Anakin. So, to go back to "obviously, and obviously" - if he knew from the beginning could he not have written those lines more....elegantly? Much as I will ret-con it, to save the character of Obi-Wan, the lines are very badly written if he did know from the beginning. In fact, they come across as an out and out lie, would Lucas really have devised it so?

    It is done so...inelegantly it makes no sense to believe Lucas knew at that point.


    Ermmm, yes. Watch the duel. "Only a master of evil, Darth" says Obi-wan, rather backing up the idea that Darth Vader was named Darth Vader - exactly as Obi-Wan says in ANH
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  17. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    To create a first draft and to get ideas for story flow, like I said.

    Yes. Why would you assume that Lucas would divulge his secret plot twist to Brackett?
  18. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    This isn't at all plausible. Lucas HIRED Brackett to write the script. Why would he PAY a person to write a script that he KNEW wouldn't be usefull?
    Makes no sense at all. In essence this means that Lucas liked wasting his own money for no reason at all.
    Also, when Kasdan was brought in, he was TOLD about Vader being Luke's father so your reasoning that telling the script writer means that the secret will be blown is incorrect.

    FACT 1. None of the scripts of ANH have Vader as Luke's father and most of them flat out contradict it. Even the finished film does as Vader is alive while Luke's father is said to be dead.
    FACT 2. The first draft of ESB, written by Brackett after she had story conferences with Lucas, also directly contradicts Vader as Luke's father.
    FACT 3. Lucas own words, both with to the press and in private contradict Vader as Luke's father at this time. And Lucas would have no reason at all to lie. Many of these conversations was before ANH was released and became a huge hit. Also the conversations were sometimes private talks that would not become known to the public until many years later.

    In short, based on the avaliable facts, Lucas did NOT have Vader as Luke's father when ANH was made.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
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  19. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

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    Gee, I dunno, maybe because... she was writing the script?
  20. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    Because he told Kasdan when Kasdan was hired to write the script?

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  21. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Because he paid her to write the first draft of the screenplay for his film? This is, I have to say, one of the most ridiculous questions I have had to answer in a long time.
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  22. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

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    If you can't even trust the screenwriter with the plot twist, who can you trust?
  23. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    Where did I suggest a first draft was written without Lucas' input? 8-}


    Where did I suggest there weren't?


    Why make this assumption?


    To create a first draft and to get ideas for story flow, like I said. Nothing "completely misleading" about that.



    I haven't been provided with the additional "evidence" I asked for, so don't whine.



    It's off-topic because Obi-Wan is supposed to be lying to Luke.



    OK. First, Obi-Wan doesn't say he had "a young pupil named Darth Vader," he says that Darth Vader was a pupil of his before he turned to evil, which happens to be true.




    Pardon? Obi-Wan is carefully twisting the truth to Luke--he's lying, basically. What's inelegant about that?


    No, they are very elegantly written if he knew from the beginning.

    And ZOMG, you're right, those lines do come across as an out and out lie! Perhaps because it was written as such, maybe? 8-}



    No, it's done so elegantly that it makes little sense to doubt Lucas at that point.



    Oh dear lord. Yes, Obi-Wan calls Darth Darth (somewhat sarcastically) because he's named Darth now.[/quote]
    Last edited by Count Yubnub, Feb 19, 2013
  24. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    Who says the first draft isn't useful? Many things get changed after the first draft, and in this case, many things got changed. Lucas has often described himself as have a working style that includes creating a variety and selecting from that variety. The first draft, I assume, is to get ideas for story flow.


    Well, yes, he was. And from that we may infer that...?

    Here's Lucas' draft before Kasdan was brought on board (at least I assume it's Lucas' draft, but I'm not entirely sure):
    http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/esb_4th.txt


    Yes. So?


    Yes. So?


    Why assume Lucas would have no reason to lie?


    What you listed isn't sufficient to make that inference.
  25. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    So, you think there is nothing 'misleading' about getting the person you have PAID to write the script to your upcoming film to introduce the 'dead' father of a charcter who you know is....hee hee...actually still alive and completely superfluous to the film you are going to make? Really? And he did this in order that the script would be kept secret lest a minor member of your crew should 'leak' the big secret....and then tell the next guy you hire all about it? Be damned those minor crew members, I fear them no more..... The logic of your reasoning is revealed as terminally flawed, and yet you continue with it?





    Nobody's whining, why the insults now? If you want to ignore the evidence and believe Lucas knew all along, be my guest.




    It isn't off-topic given the question posed by the OP and that what you give as the reason is the exact point we are discussing. You can't restrict the discussion by simply presuming your own position to be right. And...he isn't supposed to be lying to Luke, it is ret-conned so that he is telling lUke the "truth, from a certain point of view". Its an uncomfortable scene because, at the time of ANH, it wasn't a lie, nor the truth from a certain point of view.




    Well, let's cut to the chase. What he actually says is "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned evil" - that isn't true. there was no young Jedi named Darth Vader.




    You don't understand the concept? If GL had in mind that Obi-Wan was "twisting the truth", telling "the truth, from a certain point of view" why would he not make it more.... of a twist of the truth, rather than a complete untruth. As a viewer I make it fit, but.....there's a reason there are Star Wars fans who see Oboi-Wan as a liar, liar, pants on fire kinda guy. The "from a certain point of view" line is a very inelegant ret-con. "He betrayed and murdered your father" is a very direct and utterly untruthful rendition of the events we see revealed later. One could easily write such lines without being so obviously untruthful (to what we later see) and still twist the truth, still hide the truth if one knew all along. He could say that Anakin was betrayed by Darth Vader, for example. That would be enough and has the same impact. He could describe Darth Vader as a secret Sith pupil who was planted within the Jedi...no need to say that he was a young Jedi named Darth Vader (where there never was a young Jedi named Darth vader).




    Aaah, i see. you don't get the concept.



    Ermmm, yes. Watch the duel. "Only a master of evil, Darth" says Obi-wan, rather backing up the idea that Darth Vader was named Darth Vader - exactly as Obi-Wan says in ANH[/quote]

    Oh dear lord. Yes, Obi-Wan calls Darth Darth (somewhat sarcastically) because he's named Darth now.[/quote][/quote]

    There is no sarcasm, he simply says "Darth" at the end of the sentence, rather as if that is his name, a name that Obi-Wan had known him by - quite probably when he was a young Jedi named Darth Vader, a pupil of Obi-Wan's before he turned evil.
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