Having Vader be Luke's father is MAJOR game changer and thus many of Bracketts ideas would then no longer be usefull. If Lucas wants his script writer to give him ideas that can actually be used then why not tell them the important plot points? Again under your scenario Lucas likes wasting time and his own money. Remember, Lucas made ANH with studio money. ESB was the first movie that he financed himself in order to get fully independent. If that failed, he could loose a lot. So it makes no sense that Lucas would be that careless with his own money, esp with so much riding on ESB. We can conclude that Lucas is very capable of telling his script writer the important plot points, which you somehow argue he didn't do with Brackett. This also shows that Lucas doesn't value secrecy over telling his script witer what he or she needs to know in order to do his or her job. Something you again argue he does with Brackett for no apparent reason. This is EVIDENCE that Vader wasn't Luke's father at the time ANH was made. Yes. So? [/QUOTE] More EVIDENCE that Vader wasn't Luke's father when ANH was made. Why assume that he would? Before ANH opened Lucas at best hoped that ANH would do Planet of the Apes type numbers and he could do a couple of low budget sequels. Why bother trying to hide something that not many people would be interested in? Second, he is talking to people he has hired to work for him. In Hollywood there is usually a secrecy clause in your contract. Meaning if someone is hired and then blabs, he or she could get sued or loose their jobs. So Lucas would have no reason to think that the people he is talking to would turn around and sell his story to the press. [/QUOTE] Really, and what would be enough? A timemachine and the ability to read Lucas mind? What I have presented you with are facts, scripts, the finished films and Lucas own words. The large majority of this point in one direction, that Vader wasn't Luke's father when ANH was made. The only counter evidence is Lucas much more recent claims that he had this figured out from the get go. Putting Lucas recent words over all other evidence would be an appeal to authority fallacy. It can be used but it has not more or less weigth than the other evidence. So looking at all the data and using the scientific method the most reasonable conclusion is that Vader wasn't Luke's father when ANH was made. Want to disprove it, find evidence that supports your argument. Simply dismissing any and all evidence out of hand isn't enough. Bye for now. Blackboard Monitor
if Vader had been Luke's father from the beginning (ANH), why would have Lucas come up with a line like "He betrayed and murdered your father" ? "He murdered (or killed) your father..." was enough. Why Betrayed ? Very likely because Luke's father was litterally among the Jedi knights betrayed and killed by Darth Vader. It could be metaphoric (betrayed), but it's extremely unlikely. It doesn't make sense and sounds completely weird to me. The French dubbed version which I'm familiar with is more ambiguous to that regard. Ben tells Luke "Your father, too, was slayed by Vader's hands". No betrayal. That's probably why I hadn't much trouble believing that everything was cohesive and planned from the first film, along with Ben confused and troubled look just before he breaks the news in ANH I admit (retcon). Until stumbling across SHOSW and other stuff in the late 2000's....
You mean like employing David Prowse and James Earl Jones and not trusting them with the real line of dialogue?
Firstly, I know Prowse wasn't told but I think JEJ was told, he said the lines used in the final film. Second, neither person was responsible for writing the script. It is one thing to mislead an actor, whose voice isn't going to be used anyway and the person charged with writing the actual script. Since Kasdan was told and Mark was also told, it is clear that Lucas did tell some people the secret. So it makes little sense that he wouldn't tell Brackett. Nor does it make much sense that Brackett came up with this idea all by herself and that she never mentioned it during her meetings with Lucas. Bye for now. Blavkboard Monitor
JEJ was given three lines of dialogue to read, he didn't know which was true. Hammill was told immediately before the scene was filmed. Therefore, we've established that Lucas can and does employee persons he doesn't trust with certain secrets.
So, are you going taking the position that one of those people would be the person he paid to write the script? Really? But he told Kasdan? In what way would it make sense to spend money on having a script written which introduces a superfluous character (the ghost of the dead father) which must have been discussed with Lucas. The idea that you would spend money on having a script written that you cannot use in order to tease out story ideas is ludicrous. That's what story conferences are for. You play with ideas pre-script, then you refine the script. Its one thing to say Lucas might want to keep secret that Vader is Luke's father, but then why agree to introduce Luke's father? He could easily put a stop to that without giving anything away. The argument makes less and less sense the more you look at it. And, why do those involved talk of the idea coming out of the process of making the story? Surely if Lucas always had it in mind he would have said so, yet those involved have the impression that it came out during the process.
Just correcting an assertation we know to be false that was used as evidence for one side of the discussion. Let me lob this into the mix and see where it goes.... Brackett was an old, washed-up hack on her death bed that Lucas had a soft spot for so he threw her a bone. Full well knowing a Star Wars film was something totally out of her realm even in her heyday.
What assertion was that? There wasn't an assertion made, rather it was suggested that it would be unlikely that George Lucas, or anybody in their right mind, would pay their own money to have a screenplay written and completely mislead the author about a major plot point of the movie. And mislead he must have done, in order for there to have been the introduction of 'ghost father' into the story. Even if you didn't want to let on that Vader was Luke's father one could veto 'ghost father'. A hack? The Big Sleep, Rio Grande. Washed up? It was only six years since The Long Goodbye. The idea that a Star Wars film was "totally out of her realm" is an odd suggestion. Really if it has come to this, the suggestion that George Lucas hired (and paid) a screenwriter because he felt sorry for her and then lied to her about a major plot point....surely you should begin to see how insensible the position is. What else is there? A 'feeling' from the pause that Alec Guinness incorporates into the scene? But the words just don't make sense. There is no 'Wow, he's right, he never actually said that Darth Vader was a different person or that he actually murdered him, we were just lead to believe that.' moment which would indicate that Lucas had intended it all along. Instead there is the rather jarring "a young Jedi named Darth Vader" (an out and out untruth), a jarring...'but Obi-Wan said...' moment. There's the fact that those involved came away with the impression that the Vader as father storyline came out of the process of writing and making TESB, when one might expect Lucas to have told them he always had it planned that way (why would he not?). As I say, if the best argument you have is that he lied to the person he paid to write his screenplay then the position doesn't have very much of a basis.
I don't think that we will ever find out the answer so I think it's more of a think what you want to think kind of thing. I personally believe that he wrote it in once he got the okay for Empire and that Anakin was originally Obi-Wan's great friend before Vader came.
So Lucas didn't even tell his scriptwriter about Vader being Luke's father, yet we are supposed to believe that Sir Alec Guiness paused before the Vader lines because he knew he was "acting a lie". Hmm...
