CT Did Lucas know Darth was Luke's father in ANH?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Mooncake, Feb 4, 2013.

Moderators: Darth_Nub, MOC Yak Face
  1. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Having Vader be Luke's father is MAJOR game changer and thus many of Bracketts ideas would then no longer be usefull.
    If Lucas wants his script writer to give him ideas that can actually be used then why not tell them the important plot points?
    Again under your scenario Lucas likes wasting time and his own money. Remember, Lucas made ANH with studio money. ESB was the first movie that he financed himself in order to get fully independent. If that failed, he could loose a lot. So it makes no sense that Lucas would be that careless with his own money, esp with so much riding on ESB.



    We can conclude that Lucas is very capable of telling his script writer the important plot points, which you somehow argue he didn't do with Brackett.
    This also shows that Lucas doesn't value secrecy over telling his script witer what he or she needs to know in order to do his or her job. Something you again argue he does with Brackett for no apparent reason.



    This is EVIDENCE that Vader wasn't Luke's father at the time ANH was made.


    Yes. So?
    [/QUOTE]

    More EVIDENCE that Vader wasn't Luke's father when ANH was made.


    Why assume that he would? Before ANH opened Lucas at best hoped that ANH would do Planet of the Apes type numbers and he could do a couple of low budget sequels. Why bother trying to hide something that not many people would be interested in?
    Second, he is talking to people he has hired to work for him. In Hollywood there is usually a secrecy clause in your contract. Meaning if someone is hired and then blabs, he or she could get sued or loose their jobs. So Lucas would have no reason to think that the people he is talking to would turn around and sell his story to the press.

    [/QUOTE]

    Really, and what would be enough? A timemachine and the ability to read Lucas mind?

    What I have presented you with are facts, scripts, the finished films and Lucas own words. The large majority of this point in one direction, that Vader wasn't Luke's father when ANH was made. The only counter evidence is Lucas much more recent claims that he had this figured out from the get go.
    Putting Lucas recent words over all other evidence would be an appeal to authority fallacy. It can be used but it has not more or less weigth than the other evidence. So looking at all the data and using the scientific method the most reasonable conclusion is that Vader wasn't Luke's father when ANH was made.

    Want to disprove it, find evidence that supports your argument.
    Simply dismissing any and all evidence out of hand isn't enough.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  2. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    if Vader had been Luke's father from the beginning (ANH), why would have Lucas come up with a line like "He betrayed and murdered your father" ?
    "He murdered (or killed) your father..." was enough. Why Betrayed ? Very likely because Luke's father was litterally among the Jedi knights betrayed and killed by Darth Vader.
    It could be metaphoric (betrayed), but it's extremely unlikely. It doesn't make sense and sounds completely weird to me.

    The French dubbed version which I'm familiar with is more ambiguous to that regard. Ben tells Luke "Your father, too, was slayed by Vader's hands". No betrayal. That's probably why I hadn't much trouble believing that everything was cohesive and planned from the first film, along with Ben confused and troubled look just before he breaks the news in ANH I admit (retcon).

    Until stumbling across SHOSW and other stuff in the late 2000's....
    Last edited by Ord-Mantell70, Feb 20, 2013
    TOSCHESTATION and Heero_Yuy like this.
  3. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    You mean like employing David Prowse and James Earl Jones and not trusting them with the real line of dialogue?
  4. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Firstly, I know Prowse wasn't told but I think JEJ was told, he said the lines used in the final film.
    Second, neither person was responsible for writing the script.
    It is one thing to mislead an actor, whose voice isn't going to be used anyway and the person charged with writing the actual script.

    Since Kasdan was told and Mark was also told, it is clear that Lucas did tell some people the secret. So it makes little sense that he wouldn't tell Brackett. Nor does it make much sense that Brackett came up with this idea all by herself and that she never mentioned it during her meetings with Lucas.

    Bye for now.
    Blavkboard Monitor
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  5. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    JEJ was given three lines of dialogue to read, he didn't know which was true.

    Hammill was told immediately before the scene was filmed.

    Therefore, we've established that Lucas can and does employee persons he doesn't trust with certain secrets.
  6. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    So, are you going taking the position that one of those people would be the person he paid to write the script? Really? But he told Kasdan? In what way would it make sense to spend money on having a script written which introduces a superfluous character (the ghost of the dead father) which must have been discussed with Lucas.

    The idea that you would spend money on having a script written that you cannot use in order to tease out story ideas is ludicrous. That's what story conferences are for. You play with ideas pre-script, then you refine the script. Its one thing to say Lucas might want to keep secret that Vader is Luke's father, but then why agree to introduce Luke's father? He could easily put a stop to that without giving anything away. The argument makes less and less sense the more you look at it.

    And, why do those involved talk of the idea coming out of the process of making the story? Surely if Lucas always had it in mind he would have said so, yet those involved have the impression that it came out during the process.
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  7. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    Just correcting an assertation we know to be false that was used as evidence for one side of the discussion.

    Let me lob this into the mix and see where it goes....

    Brackett was an old, washed-up hack on her death bed that Lucas had a soft spot for so he threw her a bone. Full well knowing a Star Wars film was something totally out of her realm even in her heyday.
  8. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    What assertion was that? There wasn't an assertion made, rather it was suggested that it would be unlikely that George Lucas, or anybody in their right mind, would pay their own money to have a screenplay written and completely mislead the author about a major plot point of the movie. And mislead he must have done, in order for there to have been the introduction of 'ghost father' into the story. Even if you didn't want to let on that Vader was Luke's father one could veto 'ghost father'.

    A hack? The Big Sleep, Rio Grande. Washed up? It was only six years since The Long Goodbye. The idea that a Star Wars film was "totally out of her realm" is an odd suggestion.

    Really if it has come to this, the suggestion that George Lucas hired (and paid) a screenwriter because he felt sorry for her and then lied to her about a major plot point....surely you should begin to see how insensible the position is.

    What else is there? A 'feeling' from the pause that Alec Guinness incorporates into the scene? But the words just don't make sense. There is no 'Wow, he's right, he never actually said that Darth Vader was a different person or that he actually murdered him, we were just lead to believe that.' moment which would indicate that Lucas had intended it all along. Instead there is the rather jarring "a young Jedi named Darth Vader" (an out and out untruth), a jarring...'but Obi-Wan said...' moment. There's the fact that those involved came away with the impression that the Vader as father storyline came out of the process of writing and making TESB, when one might expect Lucas to have told them he always had it planned that way (why would he not?).

    As I say, if the best argument you have is that he lied to the person he paid to write his screenplay then the position doesn't have very much of a basis.
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Feb 25, 2013
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  9. CrashTheHedgehog100 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    I don't think that we will ever find out the answer so I think it's more of a think what you want to think kind of thing. I personally believe that he wrote it in once he got the okay for Empire and that Anakin was originally Obi-Wan's great friend before Vader came.
  10. DarthPancho Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2013
    So Lucas didn't even tell his scriptwriter about Vader being Luke's father, yet we are supposed to believe that Sir Alec Guiness paused before the Vader lines because he knew he was "acting a lie".

    Hmm...
  11. Star Wars 1977 Only Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2013
    If you watch the Original Star Wars without thinking of the sequels and prequels, the movie makes total sense as there are no contradictions in it. Vader was never Luke's father, Leia was never Luke's sister, and even ROTJ screws up the original by making Darth Vader's name Anakin Skywalker? Don't you think Owen and Beru would have changed Luke's last name if they were hiding him from the Empire??? :rolleyes:
    TOSCHESTATION and DarthDuckie like this.
  12. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Disrespecting the dead is the best way to support inane Star Wars conspiracy theories.
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  13. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    Isn't the "Lucas made everything up as he went along" the conspiracy theory side of the arguement??

    As Michael Jackson, another deceased person, said...."The lies become the truth".
  14. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    No, as we have access to many old versions of the script as well as what Lucas told the people he was working with back in the day and old interviews.
    All of those paint a fairly clear picture. Vader can't have been the father in many of the early drafts of SW as the father was shown as alive or told to be alive but not shown. The first draft of ESB still had Vader different from Luke's father. In that draft we also got a name for Luke's sister and it wasn't Leia. Lucas has also spoken about ideas for prequel films that feature Obi-Wan, Vader AND Luke's father. He has also said at one point that Leia being Luke's sister was not planned. But he has also said that this was the plan from the get go.
    RotJ went through several changes, at one point Vader wasn't really redeemed and we didn't get the scene with him and Luke and no Force ghost. RotJ script also had Owen as Obi-Wans brother and explained some of Leia's backstory, that she lived with her real mother on Alderaan for some years.
    Qui-Gon started with a much smaller role that grew bigger. How Anakins turn was to happen also changed with various drafts.

    With Vader it shows a consistent growth of the character in terms of importance. At first he is a minor villain that dies, then a major villain that still dies, then major villain that survives, then major villain that is actually the father of the hero.

    The notion that "Lucas had it all planned form the start." is a like a conspiracy theory because it requires massive amounts of rewriting of what people says, inventing ludicrous motivations for what people do and has loads of people to lie for no apparent reason. Plus it runs counter to how most stories evolve during the creative process.

    Saying that SW grew, evolved and changed with each draft that Lucas wrote and ideas he got from others and the contribution of other writers and influences form other stories, isn't an insult to Lucas or makes his achievements cheap or lacking.
    However calling Brackett "an old, washed-up hack." is an insult and doesn't strengthen your argument.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  15. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2004
    star 4
    This is wise and balanced.
  16. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    The first draft of ESB was written by the aforementioned Brackett, so it is inclusive to either side of the discussion.

    Am I not allowed to critique Brackett's talents as a storyteller, particularly a Star Wars storyteller??

    If I had said Ewe Boll is a washed-up hack; would anybody care??
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  17. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    She wrote ESB after sitting in story conferences with Lucas, during which they would have talked about plot points, what characters should be included and the overall story. So the ghost of father Skywalker isn't very likely something she would have included all by herself. Either Lucas mentioned it or she had the idea but asked Lucas about it first and he oked it. Either way, first draft of ESB still has Vader =/= father Skywalker. So Lucas did not have everything planned from the get go.

    Calling a writer "an old, washed-up hack." isn't critquing their writing ability, it is just insults. If you want to critique, bring up specific points and what is wrong with them.
    If someone calls Lucas "a fat, talentless, hack." that is only insults, and yes I know some have called him that and they are just insulting him and not adding anything relevant to the discussion.
    Saying, "I find Lucas a poor director of actors and his writing is too wordy." that is critiquing someones ability.

    Leigh Brackett was a well respected writer and Lucas hired her so obviously he thought she would write a good script.
    Calling her names and saying Lucas felt sorry for her and told her lies and never intended to use her script is not only insluting to her and Lucas but it is trying to promote a conspiracy theory.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface.
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  18. Qui-Riv-Brid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2013
    star 2
    No, he didn't but it's hardly a big deal. It's simply much easier to say you had the idea all along 99% of the time than going into the entire creative process describing how you came up with things every single time. It doesn't fit into one page or a 30 second clip very easily.

    The more interesting part of the whole thing is related to people who wonder why Lucas changes things when he didn't before. That isn't correct Lucas was always changing things. It's just that you didn't notice because the ability to change things before was much more limited to pre-production before you shot anything and changes during production. Changing in post-production was very limited until digital technology allowed for all sorts of things that you couldn't do before.

    Revenge of the Sith's principal shoot was done and the original edit done but Lucas knew and had already scheduled days for more shooting if he wanted to add or change anything. It was then that he decided to make a massive change in the reason from Anakin to turn. Saving Padme went from one of the reasons to the only reason to turn to the dark side. It's pre-planned live editing of the order never seen before in film making. Usually when this kind of things happens (which is quite often) it's not planned and done as an extra. For Lucas it's part of the process.
    Last edited by Qui-Riv-Brid, May 30, 2013
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  19. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    I submit her draft of ESB as exhibit #1.
  20. Red.Two Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2012
    star 1
    Lucas no more knew Vader was Luke's father than he knew Luke and Leia were going to be really really creepy in hindsight in "A New Hope."
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  21. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4

    ^^^^This.


    Exactly. It's not like any one in Hollywood or in the public - pre-77 - would have cared one way or another about that galactic farmer of space-wheat/space-corn, Luke Space-Farmer Skywalker, and who his daddy 'really' was.......


    And again, the 'secrecy' angle for TESB is defeated by the simple fact that he told Kasdan about the father Vader twist less than a year after supposedly keeping it 'secret' from Brackett. o_O
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, May 30, 2013
  22. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Ok I'll play, how so? Specifics, what about is bad?

    The term "Hack writer" is often used to describe someone who writes cheap, unoriginal and derivative stories or pulpy stories.
    Her ESB script is rough, in need of polish and is, at time, a bit wordy and talky. But unoriginal and derivative isn't words I would choose to describe it.
    It isn't a copy of the first film nor is it a rip-off of earlier SF films.
    The basic plot is similar to the finished film, Ice planet, ice creatures, Luke goes to train, Han leaves the rebels.
    The script talks more about the overall political situation in the SW galaxy and talks about the destruction of the DS and how the rebellion has spread. In fact, in this area, it does more about this side of the story, something that is missing from the finished version of ESB. There the loss of the DS and how that impacted the empire/galaxy isn't really talked about.
    Sometimes there are a bit too many recaps, like Vader talking what happened to him at the end of ANH. It is backstory but not terribly needed.
    Also Han is given more to do here, he isn't leaving because of a bounty on his head, instead he leaves in order to persuade his step father to aid the rebels. Again it brings in more about the political situation.

    I've read it and the version I read was heavilly edited with crossed out lines and such, so the script is in a very rough form.
    It would not work well as a film in that shape but compare with some of the rough drafts of ANH. Those are also in need of polish and are sometimes overly wordy.

    In closing, about Vader and father Skywalker. Not only do we get father Skywalker as a ghost but we also have Vader thinking on Luke and Lukes' father and "remembering old betrayals", giving further evidence that Vader wasn't Luke's father.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    Qui-Riv-Brid likes this.
  23. Qui-Riv-Brid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2013
    star 2
    When actually it really means is someone who can constantly produce good useable material on time and with the required amount of words that are needed.

    What it also does mean though is "Usually not a great writer but a dependable solid one." It's the second bit that always seems to get lost.
  24. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Context clues like "old," "washed up," and "death bed" kind of indicate what the intended definition was.
  25. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Indeed that is the original definition but how it is used today is more along the lines of what I said. A writer that produces cheap knock offs, or doing unoriginal or derivative stories in order to make a quick buck.

    But using the original definition would still not make it fit to Brackett because there was no immediate time pressure here. ANH was a bigger hit than Lucas could have dreamed of and now he had the option to make a film entirely on his own and become independent. This would probably make him take extra care and not rush into the next film with a hastily written script. If SW II failed then it might not only kill the SW series but could also cost him personally and ruin his chances for independence.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  26. Theron Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    I've never understood all the Lucas bashing. Guys without Lucas there is NO Star Wars. Lucas was/is a genius. Without him, Luke and Vader and Luke's dad don't exist.
Moderators: Darth_Nub, MOC Yak Face