CT Did Lucas know Darth was Luke's father in ANH?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Mooncake, Feb 4, 2013.

Moderators: Darth_Nub, MOC Yak Face
  1. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    Because Kurtz is remembering. Even recent memories are notoriously mutable and always changing, let alone ones from 20-40 years before. Brackett's script was written in the time period being talked about by someone who was in perhaps the very best position to be told about the Annikin-is-Darth idea.
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  2. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    From what I've read, the "Hidden Fortress" draft, or rather short synopsis, wasn't the first one. Lucas wrote one before that with C J Thorpe, Mace Windy and other things.
    There are people that argue that Vader was Luke's father from the very first time he appeared and among other things, they use "Darth Vader means "Dark Father" in Dutch". Which isn't totally accurate from what I've read, "Dark Father" would be "Dunker Vaader."
    They also use Lucas words when he says that Darth Vader was ALWAYS Luke's father. And the story was ALWAYS "the tragedy of Darth Vader". Which do seem to say that Vader was Luke's father from the very script he appeared in.

    If the question is whether Lucas made Vader Luke's father just before or during ANH vs during the writing of ESB.
    Since none of the ANH scripts has this and several of them flat out contradict it as does the first drafts of ESB then the simplest and most logical explanation is that Lucas made Vader Luke's father after Brackett's first draft.
    If Lucas indeed thought to make Vader into Luke's father during the making of ANH the fact remains, he didn't write it down or mention it to anyone and he in fact wrote down and said the exact opposite. Meaning this is an un-provable assumption since we don't have a time machine nor have the ability to read Lucas mind.

    As for "Splinter in the Minds eye". It was based on Lucas earliest ideas for a low-budget sequel. Foster was to write the novel that could then be turned into a movie. Hence why Han is not in it, nor is Obi-Wan and much of the action takes place on a misty planet, making it cheaper.
    Luke does fight Vader, who makes no paternal revelations, and in fact it is Luke who cuts of Vader's arm.
    It also features the Kaiburr crystal, a Force relic found in Lucas earlier ANH drafts.

    What do you mean by "The Force Ghost of Luke's father was very much in Lucas' mind. So much so, that he appeared in RoTJ."?
    The ghost of Luke's father appeared in Bracketts draft of ESB, was this her idea or Lucas? Should I take the above comment to mean that it WAS Lucas idea? If so then that is clear and undisputed proof that Lucas DIDN'T have Vader as Luke's father at the start or the writing of ESB.
    If it was all Brackett's idea and Lucas kept it then she did contribute to the story and her script wasn't just "thrown in the trash".

    After ANH became the big hit that it was, Lucas realized he could do many more SW films and they didn't have to be low budget either and he could even achieve his own independence by financing the next film himself. So yes, he was working with many ideas and how many films it should be, 12, 9, 6 or however many. The numbering also fluctuated, ESB was chapter II then became ep V, ANH was actually ep VI at one point and so on.
    This is another reason why the Vader change makes more sense during the writing of ESB rather than before. Since a lot changed after ANH became a huge hit then this change fits well here rather than before when Lucas had no idea if he could even make more SW films and if he did, it would only be 2-3 low budget films.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  3. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    First, Luke proved Obi-Wan wrong and he showed that Anakin was always there, he never was gone, dead or in a Dark Side limbo.
    His hate and the corrupting influence of the Dark Side had twisted Anakin and poisoned his mind, but he was still Anakin. He didn't want to acknowledge the name but as Luke said "It is the name of your true self, you've only forgotten."

    Second, replacing Shaw with Hayden is a big can of worms and lets not get into that here but I believe that Lucas mostly did it for one reason, raise peoples awareness for RotS.

    Third, what was dropped from ESB? Your theory that Luke's father really died years ago and Vader is just his animated corpse with a Dark Side demon in it? That was never part of any ESB not RotJ script. It is nothing more than fan theory. And not very plausible fan theory at that.
    The ghost of Luke's father was dropped for the obvious reason, Vader is now Luke's father and since he isn't dead, he can't have a Force ghost.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
    SlashMan and TOSCHESTATION like this.
  4. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    Okay, fair enough.

    Is there any other single solitary quote, outline, treatment, note, meeting minutes, or bar napkin to corroborate the fact that Lucas told Brackett to put Luke's father in the script as a separate entity from Vader?
  5. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    You're finally onto something. Both sides of the debate are un-provable given the totality of information available. So until solid, corroborable evidence is presented I elect to take the word of the one and only person who knows for sure.

    The alternative to believe in lies, a lot of misremembering, shadowy LucasBooks editors, forged documents and back-dated drafts. Which is certainly anyone's prerogative, but these things shouldn't be stated as matters of fact, but rather opinion or theories.

    Thank you for the recap of the novel. However, you failed to address my point that Vader's backstory was one of the topics off limits to Foster.


    Force Ghosts were likely Lucas' idea. I haven't seen anyone else take credit for them anywhere. The point I was trying to make here, and in most of my statements, was to raise plausible alternatives to statements that are being made as fact.

    Is it possible in a story meeting when Lucas mentioned Force Ghosts a gravely ill Brackett, who has no real experience in Sci-Fi, wasn't clear on the concept. So Lucas went into a long-winded explanation referring to appearance of Obi-Wan's ghost and that Yoda and Luke's father would also appear as ghosts, why they appear, how they appear etc etc? Could Brackett have inserted Anakin's Ghost as a result of confusion or miscommunication?

    Why Anakin's Force Ghost appears in the draft is debatable. But whatever the reason, he didn't last very long.
    Last edited by MatthewZ, Jun 8, 2013
  6. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    For realz?? You're better than this.

    Was he afraid Episode III was going to get swept to the side in a crowded summer movie season??

    Hey, maybe you're right. Old Uncle George pulled another fast-one on us, as RotS opened with single biggest day in box office history.
  7. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    Brackett's "death-bed" first draft is contemporary with the time that it was written in.

    Kurtz' claims about the sequels are NOT contemporary with the time period in question (late 70's/early 80's)

    EDIT:

    I see Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn's post above. He said it much better.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jun 8, 2013
  8. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    http://www.kinnemaniac.com/2012/04/...f-return-of-the-jedis-treacherous-teddy-bear/

    OMG! The Horror! Stop the presses!

    A character/plot point can be written into a script by the screenwriter without the consent of the director/producer/whomever??

    Surely this evil Ewok was discussed at the story conferences between Lucas and Kasdan. How could this happen?!

    If Lucas and Kasdan didn't already have a strong working relationship (unlike Lucas and Brackett) heading into RoTJ how many of Kasdan's other zany ideas (Han and/or Lando dying, Luke putting on Vader's helmet to trick the Emperor) would have made it into a draft?? Would sed draft then be undeniable proof that Lucas mandated it?
  9. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The article doesn't seem very well thought out:

    Yet Kasdan was struggling to find a plausible scenario whereby Han and Leia would be captured by the Rebels.

    Surely they'd be being captured by the Imperials, if anyone?
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  10. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    I will now disregard this entire article because of a typo.
  11. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    A typo is a small misspelling- not usually a word which is the opposite of the appropriate word.

    The basic story may be true, I don't know. But it's not very professional to make a mistake like that one.

    Though I might just be a natural nitpicker.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jun 8, 2013
  12. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Since Hayden was added to the 2004 DVD release along with a special about Vader/Anakin and RotS would open about six months later, the idea is not unreasonable. Add to that, AotC certainly did well but dropped quite a bit from TPM, had RotS dropped that much it would still had been profitable but not by much. So Lucas would not have to worry that RotS would bomb but I think he wanted to avoid another AotC style drop in ticket sales.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  13. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Actually you got that wrong, one side, the side that says that Lucas did not have Vader as Luke's father until the later drafts of ESB, rely on provable evidence. Namely scripts and drafts from that time period. Since NO script or draft have Vader as Luke's father until 1978 and the post-Brackett drafts, my and other position is simply; Lucas made Vader Luke's father at that point.
    Your side relies on the un-provable assumption, Lucas made Vader Luke's father earlier but he never wrote it down anywhere and told no one and actually wrote down/said the exact opposite as a smoke screen. So not only don't you have provable evidence, you also have to ignore the actually provable evidence from that time, scripts, drafts, Lucas quotes etc.
    Also, taking Lucas word over all other evidence is an appeal to authority fallacy and thus a logical fallacy.

    If Lucas had Vader as Luke' father from before ANH then he HAS lied, both in interviews and to the people he was working with. If he hadn't, then he lies when he said he did. Either scenario has Lucas lying so you can't avoid that. The scenario of Vader NOT being Luke's father until the later drafts of ESB has the least amount of lies and requires no forged documents, misremembering or conspiracy theories.
    All one needs to do is to look at the submitted scripts and draw conclusions from them. And since the first drafts of ESB still has Vader NOT being Luke's father, it is consistent with the earlier ANH drafts, the ANH film and pretty much all other evidence from that time period. The ONLY thing that doesn't match is Lucas, much later claims, that Vader was ALWAYS Luke's father and SW was ALWAYS about him.



    The novel features Vader and said Vader has a fight with Luke and Luke cuts of his hand. So Vader wasn't off-limits and really, how much sense would it make for Vader meet and fight Luke, get his hand cut off and NOT mention that he was his father and instead save that for a later confrontation?

    If Force Ghosts were a Lucas idea then you have admitted that Brackett DIDN'T invent the Ghost scene with Luke's father by her own self, Lucas had input. This in turn shows that Lucas DIDN'T have Vader as Luke's father as having an alive Vader and the ghost of Luke's father in the same movie totally contradicts that idea.

    Again you seem not to know much about Brackett as much of her career was actually writing SCIENCE FICTION. She worked with Ray Bradbury among others. But she also wrote other stories and one of them is what got her noticed by film people like Howard Hawks.
    Her wiki page list over ten SciFi novels and over 40 short stories.
    One interesting thing from her Wiki page is this "Most of Brackett's science fiction can be characterized as space opera or planetary romance"
    Note that Lucas has often described Star Wars as "Space Opera".

    ESB was her fist "Science Fiction" film as prior to that she had only written novels and short stories.
    But she certainly knew the genre and Lucas would know that. Hence why her hired her. He thought that she was a capable writer and would do good work for him.
    Also if Brackett was so ill that she could not understand what was being said to her then Lucas would have stopped. She had cancer yes but she could still work.


    [/QUOTE]

    The fact that it appears isn't debatable and it's appearance disproves Vader being Luke's father.
    Also at this stage, Luke's father name was 100 % decided. For that matter, Luke last name was changed from Starkiller to Skywalker very late in the game.
    When Vader was changed to be Luke's father then, for obvious reasons, the Ghost of Luke's father was removed.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  14. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    That's about as clear as it gets. There is another note mentioned (on page 7 of the same book): "Somewhere the good father (Ben) watches over the child's fate, ready to assert his power when critically needed. Father changes into Darth Vader, who is a passing manifestation, and will return triumphant. Luke travels to the end of the world and makes sacrifice to undo the spell put on his father. He succeeds and happiness is restored." There is no date attached to this note, and while it looks to me like it has something to do with a potential "father Vader" concept, in the same line he refers to Ben as a father to Luke.

    I guess it boils down to Occam's Razor. It's possible Lucas wanted Vader to be Luke's father during the shooting of SW, but we have been given access to no notes or mentions to this effect. In that time period he always seems to have referred to Annikin and Darth as separate characters. He crossed out things he didn't like in Brackett's script, but I don't think he crossed out the Father Skywalker character every time he appears (if that counts for anything). So while it's possible that the idea had occurred to Lucas, there's no specific reason to assume anything about the timing until it's written in. It's simpler. That doesn't guarantee that it's right, but we don't really have much reason to think otherwise... ?

    BTW, Lucas was already talking about Ben in the "netherworld" before the Brackett draft (as in the quote up above) so he clearly thought Ben's agency would continue and be able to return in some form. Whether the visual of the blue glowy ghost came from him or from Brackett, I don't know.
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  15. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    This is interesting.
  16. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    The fact that it appears isn't debatable and it's appearance disproves Vader being Luke's father.
    Also at this stage, Luke's father name was 100 % decided. For that matter, Luke last name was changed from Starkiller to Skywalker very late in the game.
    When Vader was changed to be Luke's father then, for obvious reasons, the Ghost of Luke's father was removed.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor[/quote]


    Your arguments are truly mesmerizing.

    If I make the statement, "The sky is blue". You would respond, "You have admitted the sky is blue, therefore it proves that Lucas DID IN FACT tell Brackett to include Luke's father in the script".

    I'm convinced you aren't even reading what I'm writing anymore, so I feel no need to continue this debate with you.
  17. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4

    Now this is an actual well though-out, fair and logical presentation of your side of the argument.

    I thank you for this.
  18. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    I've thought this bit was interesting ever since I had first read it.....[face_thinking]
  19. tulwinn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2011
    Oh the irony. AFAICS all the evidence is on one side, and its not yours which is based on the assumption that Lucas isnt lying. Which given he has lied in the past isn't a strong basis.
    Heero_Yuy likes this.
  20. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    Tell me when Lucas saw Scaramouche and I'll tell you when Luke and Vader became related ;)

    And Luke and Leia for that mater :eek:
Moderators: Darth_Nub, MOC Yak Face