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Did Lucas make Anakin whiny on purpose?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by StarWarsFan91, Apr 24, 2011.

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  1. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008
    I agree with you on this. And the blame could be put on the directing or script writing, or the fact that in the limited time demonstrated by the movies, Anakin was always in a situation in which he reacted by being angsty. We did see a few lighthearted moments--with Obi-Wan in the speeder chase scene, in the Varykino sequence, with Obi-Wan again at the beginning of ROTS--but unfortunately they are so few and far between, and quite obviously not what everyone remembers.



    I don't understand this comment. You're criticizing Lucas' writing for failing to make Anakin more as a light-hearted youth in AOTC? Did you want Anakin to be more like his son at the age of 19? Are all Skywalker men supposed to behave the same way? I don't understand.


    Padmé dying in child birth is okay, but the cause of "broken heart" seems incredibly heavy-handled.

    I disagree. Padme dying of a "broken heart" continued the theme of courtly love that began in AOTC. And by the way, dying of a broken heart is actually possible. But because it's not "modern" - especially for a female character - many fans went up in arms. It seems as if they wanted Anakin and Padme's romance to be just as "modern" as Leia and Han's. Or possibly, they wanted too much of the story aspects of the OT to be in the PT. And that's not original creativity to me, just capitalizing on past success.
     
  2. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011
    Just for clarification, but what religious message? :confused: I've heard many reasons listed for dissatisfaction with Padme's death, but how is it tied to any sort of religious connotation? I'm genuinely curious, what is the religious symbolism? There is some mythological backing to it, of course (it hearkens back to Isolde who died of a broken heart when she believed Tristan abandoned her), but I'm not seeing the religion connection. There might also be physiological explanation since depression and extreme emotions can provoke lethal heart attacks or other health issues, like insomnia, fatigue and (in more serious cases) cardiac disorders. Compound that with recently being choked and giving birth and you have a medical explanation if you'd prefer.

    But who's to say that Lucas used "everything that popped to mind"? He began writing the prequels in 1994 and debated a number of topics throughout, such as the existence of Qui-Gon, Anakin's age upon discovery, and the main component of Anakin's turn. It's not as though he suddenly woke up one day and decided to put these elements into the films. Anakin's age, for example, was specifically chosen because, as you say, it would further the conflict by causing the greatest psychological trauma in terms of separation from his mother. And I think that criticism of the PT's tone and genre is sometimes unfairly applied. For example, people will dislike the fact that the PT is not as "fun" as the OT and are averse to its more formal, rigid tone. But that's the nature of the beast. One trilogy has a happy ending. The other ends in tragedy. By necessity they must be different, yet they are often held to the same standards. Or, should I say, to the standards of the OT.

    Why should an artist listen to criticism on his vision though? In the communication of ideas, yes, it can be useful, but if a certain direction is integral to his vision, then why change it to please others? Why surrender to your critics simply because they dislike what you have to say? Lucas has worked successfully with others to refine his vision, for sure, but the story has always been his. Why betray his life's work to appease the dissidents? It seems too high a price to pay for the approval of others, in my opinion.
     
  3. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    In many ways she seems like a martyr to me, sacrificing herself for love. Complete sacrifice of oneself and taking on sins of others reminds me of Jesus' death. But maybe that's just me.

    See, I wouldn't mind seeing her die to a heart attack caused by her death. But the droid explicitely tells us there's nothing wrong physically (heart attacks are pretty easy to detect). So we can only assume she dies of some supernatural cause.

    I never said that. You're mistaken if you think that was aimed at George Lucas. I just like to discuss storytelling very much (my profession and all). You seemed to be of the opinion that ideas should be followed no matter what. When in truth there's nothing more maleable to a writer. People think of building a story as having a strict structure, a personal canon they follow rigidly. But usually a story (or fictional universe) evolves during the planning and writing stages and changing of elements is inevitable. I was adressing that point. I have no insight into Lucas brain and thus I don't know how much he scrapped.

    Well, the PT includes a lot of humorous elements (Jar-Jar Binks for instance). So one must assume that humor is also a part of the story. The execution of the humoric scenes can be critizised. Are they funny or not? ROTS however was full-blown tragedy so I'm not critizising it for his lack of humor.

    I agree. The base conflict should not be changed because of other peoples critizism. That usually leads to disaster. An artist must tell the story they want to tell. If they stray from that they are sellouts. Yet there are many ways one can execute that base conflict. Just look on how many versions of the Heros journey exist, some good, some bad.

    Most PT-critics
     
  4. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011
    Hmm. Well, I suppose I can see where you're coming from, although, I don't know if the comparison to Jesus is apt. After all, Padme's death doesn't redeem anyone of their sins. Quite the contrary, in fact, as it makes Anakin's guilt all the worse. I've always seen her death as partially selfish and selfless. She can't adapt to this new world and can't face it. There's an element to her character where I think she simply reaches her breaking point. But it's also selfless in the fact that I think she realizes that her death will protect her children and prevent Anakin from being able to justify his use of the Dark Side. Either way, the film never comments on this, so it's just my idle speculation.

    Ah, but note that the droid makes this comment before she gives birth and while she's still unconscious. With the added strain of childbirth and the fact that she may be able to sense Anakin's pain (which is suggest but not confirmed by the inter-cutting of the scenes) I think it's possible that she could have rapidly deteriorated. I don't necessarily believe this to be the case, but it's an alternative if you're so inclined.

    Oh, okay. My bad, then. I thought we were still referencing Lucas specifically. But yes, I agree with you that there's nothing wrong with changing things on the go if you come up with a better idea. Sometimes genius strikes at the strangest of times after all. And I'm not necessarily saying that ideas should be followed no matter what. Merely that if a writer includes an idea, I generally like to think that they've considered alternatives and chosen that particular idea for a reason -- because of thematic value, added conflict or tension, character development, etc.

    Sure, there's nothing wrong with criticizing scenes or humor/romance/etc. I know there are points where I find Jar Jar amusing and others less so. Would I have made suggestions to Lucas if I were working with him? Yep.

    See, I often hear many people say that they like the PT's story, it's just the execution that they dislike. But I feel that an issue here is that the e
     
  5. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    You are wrong. Love-hate relationships like Han and Leia had one aren't always a favorite. I was never into Luke and Mara for instance. And I can get behind courtly love. I liked the romance in First Knight eventhough the films sloooow pacing. I also have no problem at all with insecure charakters. It's just that Hayden Christiansens lines and acting are over the top while Portman seems incredibly flat and wooden. The contrast takes me straight out of the movie.
     
  6. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011
    My intention wasn't to state that you only like relationships such as Han and Leia's, merely that you prefer the depiction of their love to that of Anakin and Padme's. I'm sorry if it came across that way. I actually enjoy the "over the top" acting by Hayden Christensen. It is intentional if you listen to the commentary. Lucas is aware that it's very melodramatic, but that's the nature of Anakin's character: he's extremely intense and, in this scene, he's laying all his cards on the table and leaving the choice in Padme's hands. I think the contrast is deliberate in the sense that Padme feels the same way, but she's trying to reign in her feelings -- keep that emotionless mask. Notice how when Anakin kisses her the first time, she readily leans in, but when she breaks off, she stiffly comments that "she shouldn't have done that." And clenches her hands -- there's a great deal of repression in her character. The way she dresses is also indicative of the fact that she's emotionally fraught. Notice that on Coruscant, her clothing is very prim and proper. In fact, the first outfit she wears while she's alone with Anakin (during the packing scene) even has armor built in. As they escape to Naboo though, her clothing becomes more revealing and alluring -- culminating in the black leather dinner gown. There's a great deal of subtext to be considered Padme's appearance and body language, such as the fact that she gives in quite readily, but usually backs out again once realization and duty catch up to her.

    Again, if you don't like it, you don't like it. I'm under no delusion that I can change your mind. It just rankles me when people say the romance is "terrible" when I find Lucas actually put a good deal of thought into how he wanted it to play out. That's all.
     
  7. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    I am mostly okay with Christensens acting. I know he was supposed to be an intense charakter but occasionally he was still "too much". I admit it isn't easy to walk the line between being very intense and being too intense. I notice this difficulty in my writing too. I think it is something you get a feeling for with experience.

    Portman, sorry, but she never convinced me she was anything but bored. Even when she clenches her hand. Her voice and her face never convinced me there was more behind it. Telling was only her clothing, but without support from the actress even that trick didn't pull weight (for me). Her smile and laughter seemed fake too.
     
  8. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011
    To each his own. Personally, I find that the rigidity and discomfort she exhibits is more indicative of Padme's character (the fact that she is a serious, committed politician with an underdeveloped sense of self) than with Portman's acting per se. Again, it's alright if we don't agree on this. I don't see much emotion in Leia during the destruction of Alderaan scene and you are not convinced by Portman's acting. Just two different perspectives.
     
  9. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 1, 2004

    What happened is that Anakin totally lost control and started killing everything he came across and either he could not stop himself or he chose not to stop until everyone around him was dead. A cop or soldier that exhibits this behaviour is a danger to himself and others.
    Imagine if this were to happen in a battle and Padme or Obi-Wan is shot and killed, Anakin could go berserk again and not care about friend or foe. Both Anakin and Padme should be aware of this possibility and they should have realized that Anakin needed help and they should have told someone in the order. That they did not shows that Anakin did not take responisibility for what he had done.

    Do not agree, I've read about drunk drivers that drive while drunk and kill some people. They cry and say how terrible it was but often they are at it again quite soon.
    Many people that have some kind of addiction have done some drugs or similar, felt terrible and yet they can have a hard time stop doing it.
    Or take people that are put in prison. I would think it can vary quite a bit but prison can be unpleasant and distressing. And yet quite often those that have been to prison can commit new crimes despite knowing that they could go back to prison.
    So people can be aware that what they are doing will make them feel terrible and yet they can not stop themselves.

    Well I do not know what the republic laws say but here there are some countries that have laws that can convict a person if he does a crime in another country. Those cases I've heard about involve people that go to other countries and prey on children.

    Regards
    Nordom
     
  10. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 1, 2004
    1) Shmi had helped some jedi when they needed help and did so without thought of reward.
    So for the jedi it would be the honorable thing to do to free her from slavery.
    2) Freeing a person from slavery means one less slave in the world, in my view that is a GOOD thing. Even if you buy him or her, there is not some law that says that another free person would become a slave in their place. What were the jedi's options, steal shmi? That would kill her and stealing is also against the law. Force Watto to free Shmi, that is stealing again.
    3) Anakin was important to the jedi and they were aware that he worried about his mother.
    So freeing her would a) make her feel better and b) would make Anakin feel better.
    Win-win I say.

    So the jedi would be doing an honorable, good thing and they would make two people feel much better. That they did nothing makes them coldhearted and uncaring. The same applies to Padme.

    Regards
    Nordom
     
  11. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    Well that you disagree with such a statement blatantly means you think one of the following:

    "you're more likely to do something if you've already done it once and acknowledged how much distress it caused you"

    or

    "you're just as likely to do something if you've already done it once and acknowledged how much distress it caused you."

    Now, I fundamentally disagree with both of these. This is not how the human mind works. If you touch a scalding hot, boiling kettle, you instinctively think twice before doing it again. The saying "once bitten, twice shy" is universally acknowledged. This is not to say one cannot repeat mistakes they've made in the past, of course. But we're talking likelihood here. Citing examples of those who have done so doesn't take into account a full picture. For every person who repeats a mistake of their past, there will be dozens more who have reformed and moved on. The problem with your prison analogy is that the people who usually commit the same crimes again either a) felt no remorse for their original crime, b) didn't find prison to be an intimidating or distressing place, or c) found a life of crime difficult to escape for reasons other than emotional impulse, i.e. financial benefits.

    As I've said before, Anakin's response (both emotionally and physically) was quite human. For anyone to try and label it one of a "psycho" is unfair in my opinion. Someone so mentally unhinged wouldn't question so vigourously the morality of their actions... nor would they need reasonable motive. Put yourself in the same position, a gun in your hand with the guilty perpetrators outside your door... then, to top it off, imagine you're just 19 years old. While you might claim you'd be less prone to the kind of actions Anakin elected, respectfully, I don't have to take your word for it. And neither can you be sure until you're put in the position. Both the older and more mature Obi-Wan and Luke each act out of the same kind of rage within the movies. As I've said, the difference in their cases is that the targets of their rage have sufficient means to defend themselves (The Tuskens didn't). Anakin was clearly shown to acknowledge the error of his ways. If he believed his actions correct, I would have every sympathy for the argument he was a proven, legible, constant threat (a ticking time bomb ready to go off again at any second). But if anything, I believe any threat was actually lessened somewhat by his acceptance he should be "better than this". If nothing else, he would have strived to better from that day on, make no mistake. He was still learning. He would have learned how to cope with such feelings. From memory, I don't think we see him act in a similar fit of rage again (until that is he becomes Darth Vader, at which point he's given up trying for the sake of something else).

    Had the same thing happened again (with Obi-Wan or Padme the victim) in the future, I think its more than likely Anakin would have restrained himself and maintained a better sense of focus... before he was "consumed" by the dark side that is - by which point he was essentially a vastly different person anyway ("I don't know you anymore"). And as we know, his turning to the dark side was not something that was brought about by mere rage.... it was born out of a fear of loss. The path he chooses in Episode 3 is based on trying to prevent the events of Episode 2, not repeat them. They are essentially disconnected from the rage he exacted on the tuskens and entirely centred on the isolated grief he felt at the time - slaughter or not (grief which would have been equally frowned upon by The Jedi... yet not members of this boa
     
  12. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 16, 2005

    And as we know, his turning to the dark side was not something that was brought about by mere rage.... it was born out of a fear of loss. The path he chooses in Episode 3 is based on trying to prevent the events of Episode 2, not repeat them.


    I don't think I often usually agree with you, at least not in full, but this is a wonderful dissection and point.


     
  13. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
     
  14. TragicHeroLover132

    TragicHeroLover132 Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Dec 24, 2010
    Hmm...While I'm against the idea of Anakin having a personality disorder, I do agree that he may have enjoyed hurting himself. He was abused as a child, and abused children punish themselves when they mess up. So, he may have felt as if he deserved to be punished for not being good enough. [face_thinking] But I don't think he was trying to destroy himself in RotJ. He said "You were right about me," before dying to Luke, which means that he knew there was good in him.

    And it's true that Anakin turned to the Dark Side to prevent the same thing that happened in AOTC would happen again. In fact, I don't think he did it just because he was afraid of Padme dying like his mother had. I think he was afraid that if he lost her, he would become consumed by his rage once again.
     
  15. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008
    In many ways she seems like a martyr to me, sacrificing herself for love. Complete sacrifice of oneself and taking on sins of others reminds me of Jesus' death. But maybe that's just me.

    See, I wouldn't mind seeing her die to a heart attack caused by her death. But the droid explicitely tells us there's nothing wrong physically (heart attacks are pretty easy to detect). So we can only assume she dies of some supernatural cause.



    Padme had DIED of a broken heart. Why is that so hard to accept? This type of death has been prevalent in a good deal of mythologies and stories over the centuries. People have died of broken hearts in REAL LIFE. And I don't understand why many fans refuse to believe this.

    Does Padme dying of a broken heart goes against some ideal of her being considered as some feminist icon or something?


    Are they funny or not? ROTS however was full-blown tragedy so I'm not critizising it for his lack of humor.

    There was humor in the first 30-40 minutes of ROTS.



    I disagree. Obssessive-compulsive personalities will do what hurts them over and over again.

    You're describing the average human being. Which means that Anakin was not the only one in the saga "guilty" of this. This whole obssessive-complulsive argument was created by certain writers who, in my belief, could not accept the idea of Anakin as a representative of all the other characters and human nature in general. Every time I turn around, I always find humanity wallowing in illusions about itself. For some reason, we like to pretend that we're better than we actually are. And we like to use fictional characters to state our case.
     
  16. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    Being obsessive and desiring pain is not and need not be the same thing. Anakin was made obsessive up to a certain point, yes. But no more than you or I. To extrapolate from that and even imply Anakin was some sort of self-loathing, manic depressive or self-harmer in denial as a result is way off the mark in my opinion. I think Lucas himself would scoff at the suggestion. He's a normal human being, with normal flaws and regular impulses/traits. He represents us. While the things that happen to Anakin may be abnormal and/or extreme, up to a certain point in Episode 3 where the dark side overshadows his conscience, his reactions are perfectly understandable.
     
  17. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 1, 2004
    What I disagreed with was your apparent general statement that you are less likely to do something if you have done it before and it caused you pain or distress. That is a far too sweeping and general statement and the world is full of examples that show the opposite. Take alcohol, tobacco and drugs, there are quite a lot of people who use them despite knowing it will make them feel bad. I simply do not think you can make any kind of general rule about human behaviour in this area. Yes burnt children often learn to avoid fire but do children need to put their hand down a meat grinder before they learn not to do that? And how many people have drunk too much and felt terrible the moring after and how many of them have given up on alcohol? If we humans always learned to avoid doing things that will hurt us our world would be very different.

    So I am not saying that you are more likely or as likely because I simply do not belive you can make such a general statement. It varies firstly on what act we are talking about and then it varies a great deal from person to person.

    Regards
    Nordom
     
  18. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    Someone can have an obsessiv streak without having a personality disorder. I'm not claiming he has a personality disorder - yet. I'm just saying he's the compulsive type.

    Hmhm, an interesting theory I could certainly get behind. But we don't have enough evidence on it.

    It has been prevalent, true. Do I have to like it? No. It's too melodramatic for me, sorry.

    Agreed. But humor seemed to play a smaller role in this movie.

    Anakin is hurting himself over and over again with his outbursts against Obi-Wan and the council. Control and power are his obsessions.

    I never said it wasn't human of him to be obsessive, in fact, I can be quite obsessive myself. I just said it is part of his "nature", his "charakter". And I quite like obsessive charakters, even Anakin when he is more mature in ROTS and later.

    I am quite certain he has "issues", but I don't think he could be labeled insane (aside from that temporal insanity when he slaughtered the Tusken and after his fall). His impulses are not, hm, regular. That something is understandable doesn't make it normal, you know?
    As for GL, sometimes an artist is unaware of things. Like when a reader of mine told me a charakter was honorable - something I never consciously acknowledged.
     
  19. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    The statement makes allowances for examples that show the opposite. The statement is not "you will never do something again"... it is "you're less likely." It doesn't mean you can't or that you won't. It means you will be more wary about it than you otherwise might have been. If you wish to dispute that logic, who am I to stop you? I don't think you can make a coherent argument out of it though.
    Feeling bad by way of a sore head or hangover is not the same as feeling bad by way of genuine, emotional distress. And regardless, you're talking addiction there, not isolated actions. People experience genuine highs or feel positive effects (at least in the short term) from taking drugs, alcohol and tobacco. They are not merely instruments of distress. Were someone to take a particular drug and experience an immediate, genuine, all conquering emotional turmoil as a direct result, the chances of that person repeating the action are smaller than they would be had the result been something more positive or indifferent. And its not even a direct comparison to Anakin, because you have to prove the emotion he feels in killing the tuskens equates to that of feeling a high, or having a sense of enjoyment. Rage fuelled acts such as this are usually far more complex. Had Anakin given a Palpatine-esque cackle or laugh when he performed the acts, I might be tempted to concede that one. Yet he doesn't, and he doesn't admit to any enjoyment in the aftermath either, which he could have so easily done. In killing The Tuskens, Anakin is seeking a kind of justice or closure he does not find. For him to try and repeat those actions later on in pursuit of the same feelings would be somewhat illogical given what happened previously.
    I think you can. Again, I didn't say people won't do the same things again. It simply decreases the chances, even if just ever so slightly so. Our minds are primitively programmed in such a way - "once bitten, twice shy". Another example - if I say to any single person in the world, in a language they can understand, "don't think of a black cat", the first thing ANY single one of them will think of is a black cat. This is just one "general rule" we can apply to the human race. Yes we can be complex creatures. But we have a primitive, predictable core as well. As general statements go, the one we're discussing here is pretty well established and accepted.
    Well thats where we disagree. Anakin's most questionable impulses prior to the halfway point of ROTS are seeking justice/avenging the death of his mother, and attempting to save his wife from certain death. Which of these two are not "regular" impulses? I would argue that two of our everyday institutions across the world - the prison and the hospital - are permanent monuments to such feelings.
     
  20. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    Killing all of the Tusken (not just a couple, he killed all of them).
    Blaming Obi-Wan like a thirteen year old behind is back.
    Throwing a tantrum because the council will not accept him as a master.

    And it all has to do with control.

    Prison convicts often have emotional problems too.
     
  21. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I agree that killing all of the Tuskens was not normal, but neither was what happened to Shmi.

    I'm not saying that every Tusken in the camp deserved to die, I don't believe that, but as d_arblay said earlier--I don't know exactly what I would do in Anakin's shoes, and I'm not going to believe anyone who thinks that he or she can state unequivocally that he or she would never react the way that Anakin did in the same situation.

    Han Solo summed it up for me in Tatooine Ghost: "He was a kid with a dead mother. I might have done the same thing."

    I also agree that the Tusken slaughter is going to need its own forum soon, and I will volunteer to buy a case of liquor for the poor soul that has to moderate that one.

    As far as the blaming Obi-Wan and his reaction to not being made a Master (which I would not label a "tantrum," but I have small kids, "tantrums" to me involve throwing oneself on the floor and screaming)--those are signs of immaturity, not impulse control.

    Maybe it's because I'm an old fart, but to me Anakin is a kid in AOTC and has only barely reached adulthood in ROTS. Yes, technically he is of age, but I remember myself at ages 19 and 22 and shudder to think of how immature I acted. I expect Anakin to be immature.
     
  22. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    Isn't immaturity and a lack of impulse control the same thing? It seems fairly similar to me.
     
  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Part of maturation is gaining the ability to control one's impulses, so they go hand in hand. But, using the Council chambers as an example, Anakin snapping at Mace was a sign of immaturity, not a pathological inability to control his impulses.

    The blaming Obi-Wan, again a sign of immaturity, which he seemed to grow out of, at least somewhat, by the beginning of ROTS.
     
  24. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    I guess it comes down to how you want to view a charakter. For me his "whinyness" is a symptom, for you it is but a consequence of his age and extrovert personality.
     
  25. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    Whats to say Anakin doesn't control his impulses when the council refuse him the rank of master? Seems to me that, although he clearly expresses his frustration at an unprecedented snub, he soon apologises and takes his seat, despite his continuing upset. Would the Anakin of AOTC have done that? Perhaps not. His impulses at that point may well have been to walk away from the Jedi entirely. He doesn't. He finds enough maturity to stick it out. Equally, when Palpatine reveals he's a Sith - "are you going to kill me?", "I would certainly like to". Ulterior motives aside, he still acknowledges a prominent impulse to kill the man before him, yet he finds restraint and does the right thing in reporting Palpatine to Windu.
    Luke was just as whiny much of the time.
     
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