Did Lucas Make the Wrong Trilogy?

Basically look at it this way...

You usually have a rise, then a fall, then a redemption.

With Lucas having till fill in so much background info that he had to create a cartoon series...
With the fact that the pace of AOTC and TPM being so rushed...

It just strikes me that the OT was actually the last three of the nine set.
He's trying to condence what would have been the first six into three movies.

I'm probably crazy and going to get flamed and locked for this, but I just had to get it out.

 

Actually the OT is the second trilogy. The third trilogy was to have Luke searching for his twin sister who lived on the other side of the galaxy (I assume in order to train her). The third trilogy was condensed into RotJ.

 

It just seems that they are trying to shoehorn a whole lot of info into the first three.
And using as many other sources to do so as possible.

The pace of the OT seems more relaxed comparativly.

It feels like the OT was definatly the end, I don't expect more after it,
but this first trilogy seems packed and hurried.
Not hurried in a filming style, I mean covering a lot of bases really quickly...

 

"It just seems that they are trying to shoehorn a whole lot of info into the first three.

I think they are trying to shoehorn in more CG than story.

Lucas stated that he chose to do the middle trilogy because of technical constraints and because it was more interesting and exciting than the first trilogy.

Well, he's solved the first problem, but the second remains to be true.

 

wrong in my opinion, PT is better than OT in every way, but ur opinion counts just as much as mine

 

to lucas's credit he did say that the first trilogy would be far less humorless that OT, in 1987. so apparently he knew they were going to different.

i just wonder why he felt it should be so. alot of the humour comes from han solo in the OT, so all he needed was a rogue character (my money was always on bail organa being the solo character) to play off the monk like jedi (not jar jar f$%kin binks!).

i really do feel lucas dropped the ball with jar jar. he became too self indulgent and obsessed with his humourless cgi creation. jar jar was the only thing that has felt shoe-horned about this trilogy. he has almost admitted it by jar jar's virtual exclusion from AOTC.

 

With the fact that the pace of AOTC and TPM being so rushed...

Did we see the same films!? I didn't think that the pace felt rushed at all. ?

 

"he has almost admitted it by jar jar's virtual exclusion from AOTC."


I disagree. Jar Jar and Threepio serve the same purpose. When we're without one, we get the other.

 

Unfortunately, 3PO became Jar-Jar in a tin suit in AOTC.

 

3p0 and jar jar do serve the same purpose, but c3p0 never had as much screen time or attention thrust on him as jar jar did in TPM.

jar jar was virtually the main character (i suspect because george LOVES his special effects) and that was why the first film was so weak. it would have been just as weak if c-3p0 was the lead or chewie for that matter. but that wouldn't have happened because they weren't cgi. he screwed up. i only hope jar jar is edited down in any future update of the film.

also why wasn't darth maul in the film more. one of the other reasons TPM is weak is the lack of scary bad guys. why couldn't maul have governed the trade federation on behalf of sidious? why couldn't he have been darth vader 'ish is his dealings with the nemodians (force chokes etc.)

i'll tell you why, because it was badly written and ill-considered.

 

Uhm...

Hey all,

This is all completely off topic!!!

The question was, does it seem like Lucas
made the OT as 7,8, and 9, but billed
them as 4,5, and 6. I'm not asking which
is better, or what you hated about each.
I am just asking if it seems like 1,2, and 3
are actually 1-6 just stuffed into three
movies.

Sheesh.

 

Maul, Tyranus and Vader are all different characters with different defining personalities and abilities that make them almost equally as dangerous as foes to our heroes. Maul, obviously was the weakest and his purpose within the Sith evolved into Tyranus and later Vader. Maul was more of a weapon than a character who always relied on Sidious' direction. The only thing we really knew about him was that he really didn't like the Jedi. Kind of similar to the evolution from Battle Droids to Storm Troopers.

 

In answer to ElecWolfs original question, no I don't think Ep 1-3 should have been Ep1-6, I think the pace of the movies would have been excruciating and incredibly boring. Ep 1-3 will serve there purpose of explaining how the situation in the OT got to where it was.

Its a pity this thread has to be turned into another tedious rabble about Lucas' use of CGI and Jar Jar. Its simple, get over it or don't watch the films.

 

does it seem like Lucas
made the OT as 7,8, and 9, but billed
them as 4,5, and 6

...I like this idea. There's no doubt in my mind that 4,5, and 6 are the final three movies... I believe I actually read that originally Lucas had planned nine, but he condensed the plot of the last 6 into the OT (in other words if there were nine movies, Vader would not have been redeemed/killed in RotJ). This always made sense to me, because the story arc is complete when Vader is redeemed. Any further movies would pretty much be EU, the Epic is complete, it would just be more stories in the SW universe. The idea of having 6 movies lead up to the OT seems much more realistic to me, though at this point it's a little late for that.

EDIT: I do agree with Darth_MacDaddy though, in that I think 6 movies would have been tedious... I could see a fourth though - expanding on the clone wars a bit... but who knows, let's wait to see EpIII, then decide if things were too rushed.

 

There's no need to wait for Episode III -- things are already too rushed. The pacing of the PT makes no sense from a classical point of veiw, and it makes *even less* sense compared to the template established by the OT.

Simply look at the number of things that need to happen in Episode III -- Anakin has to have children, turn to the Dark Side, abandon the Jedi, fight Obi-Wan, become Darth Vader, destory the Jedi *and* their history. Plus, Palpatine must fully assume power. Plus, the Clone Wars actually become something more than just one fight, Ben must be conscripted to serve the republic in a military capacity. Futher, Yoda and Ben have got to go into hiding, and plan for something to happen to Luke, Leia, and Padme. And, of course, dead Jedi disappearing/not disappearing has to be explained, plus the issue of the droids. (Plus, you just know there's going to be a space battle.)

Basically, nearly *everything* that has to happen to set up the OT has to be shoehorned into a single Episode, while TPM and AOTC serve nearly no point in the overall scheme of things.

TPM is made even more irrelevant to the overall plot of the PT by taking place an entire *decade* before Episode II, thus dropping characters, relationships. Even worse is that it undercuts the effectiveness of Episode II by forcing it to just drop characters and situations into the audiences' lap without nuturing them in any meaningful way. (Case in point the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship is established through [lame, IMO] dialoge rather than allowed to mature on-screen. Contrast this to the Obi-Wan/Luke relationship)

From someone who believes in the set-up/pay-off method of constructing and pacing a story, it seems to me that the PT would have been better served to take the pacing of the OT (1-2 year intervals between episodes) with the important plot elements streched evenly across them, and the relationships-- particularly the one between Anakin and Obi-Wan-- given time to fill the blank spots rather than pointless action sequences like Pod Races and Coruscant Crazy Taxi.

 

It's amazing, the different perspectives on the PT. I think people really need to explore the things Lucas has said about this trilogy rather than forcing their own ideas upon it.

There are very good reasons there is no Han Solo character in the PT. Lucas is establishing (as he has said many, many times, even going back to the OT era) a time where the Republic is stale, unimaginative, and stagnant. You are not supposed to be laughing at wise-cracks, you are supposed to observe how the governing body, and also the Jedi, have become complacent. Maybe it's not as fun to some, but that is why Lucas has said the PT would not be as engaging as the OT. But it's a very important point to be illustrated, because Lucas is laying out his political design of a democracy devolving into a dictatorship.

There is a similar reason why Darth Maul was not allowed to be a major character. This is Anakin's story, and in order to emphasize how powerful and evil he becomes, he mustn't be upstaged by any other strong villains. If Maul was the big bad-ass of the PT as many would want, then Vader just becomes the next in line. It would be awful storytelling to have Vader's character undercut and diminished.


"Simply look at the number of things that need to happen in Episode III"

Everything you listed can easily happen in a 120 minute film. List all the events of the other five films, and you'll have a list just as long. And also, don't be shocked if some of the things on your wish list don't actually happen in the film.

"TPM and AOTC serve nearly no point in the overall scheme of things. "

Oy vey! Realize that the PT is not just a prelude to the OT. It is a story in and of itself. Too many people just want to see The Duel and The Purge. Those events (The Purge being very much in question, however) are the conclusion of the PT story, not the be-all-end-all of it.

"(Case in point the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship is established through [lame, IMO] dialoge rather than allowed to mature on-screen. Contrast this to the Obi-Wan/Luke relationship) "

Please do contrast it. I'm not sure I see the relationship between Luke and Obi-Wan mature much during the 25 minutes of screen time they have together. Which is mostly... lame dialogue.

"pointless action sequences like Pod Races and Coruscant Crazy Taxi. "

Star Wars has always highlighted race sequences and dog fights. It's an important part of the tone of the films. This is not a PT phenomenon, and it is not pointless in any way.

 

(As a total n00b, I lost my first reply, so this one is probably a lot less articulate/lucid...)

Darth Fierce, I agree with everything you have said about the neccessary differences between the OT and the PT. Also, I didn't mean to suggest that Ep III will be impossible to make due to the stuff that has to happen in it. Indeed, it will probably be action-packed from both a physical and emotional point of view. The issue is that the pacing of the PT is uneven.

I have also read your website and I think you make the strongest case I have yet encountered for pointing out what is good about the PT, which is the brilliance of its visual storytelling. But the writing leaves alot to be desired, IMO.

One of the problems with the writing is the pacing. It's not paced liked these are chapters in the same story as the OT. And it's not paced like the PT is really just Anakin's story either, because of how widly incongruent TPM is with AOTC and (presumably) EP III.

It feels scattered. I really feel like you could totally lose EP I and the story would still work. (Indeed, my mother has never seen TPM and I took her with me to see AOTC and she had no problems following it. [I do not think the same could be said about the OT.])

My point here is that from a sheer pacing view, one that wants the PT to follow the pacing rules of the saga, TPM doesn't belong in a trilogy with II/III. It should be a trilogy unto itself. The pacing of events of II/III should be relaxed and spread over three films. This would free up time for the relationships that must develop in a particular way (since the audience knows the ultimate state in which they'll end up) to develop more naturally and believably.

Given Lucas's strong visual story telling, can you imagine the impact of a PT in which the romance between Anakin and Padme felt as real as the Han/Leia one felt in the OT, or how much more meaningful the Anakin/Obi-Wan fall out would feel if their relationship didn't seem so artificial?

The PT has (had?) the potential to be even better than the OT, but pacing holds it back.

 

After ANH and ESB, the WHOLE Star Wars trilogy has been rushed. Even GL has said that he's only making the PT in order to fulfil a promise he made to the fans. When his heart was in the trilogy, the films were bloody fantastic. But now it all seems just a rush to get to the end and simply one big CGI experiment for possible use on other non-Star Wars films.

In fact, I'm somewhat disillusioned by the way the Star Wars films have gone since ESB, and am beginning to just look at them as "just some other films". Don't get me wrong, I'm a mighty fan of both ANH and ESB, because these were art forms. But other than that I'm more a fan of what the trilogy could have been, if only GL had kept with his original plans of doing a 9 Ep. saga, and not cut soooo many corners on plot and storyline. It's a sin really, because Star Wars could have been legendary in scope, so much so that it could well have rivalled real world legends such as King Arthur, the Greek myths and the Norse legends. But now I fear that all Star Wars will be is just another dumbed down pop corn movie, just fit for kids and the less, er, "intellectually demanding" amongst us. Such an Earth shattering shame.

 

I think the fact that (as an audience) we cover 32 years between TPM and ANH, leaves alot of background that has to be either quickly covered or delegated to EU and the upcoming cartoon series to go over.

TPM is made even more irrelevant to the overall plot of the PT by taking place an entire *decade* before Episode II
I disagree for the very fact that the purpose of TPM was to show how Anakin was discovered, meets Padme and Obi-Wan, and is accepted into jedi training (despite his being older). It is not uncommon for a story to fast forward many years, to the next important stage in his life. While fans may enjoy it a 5 hour TPM (with Anakin's entire training process) would not be as successful at the box office as TPM was. Sometimes, you have to "cut to the chase"

 

What does ANH have to do with ESB or ROTJ?

Not very much at all, to tell you the truth. The only cliffhanger we had left was the fate of Darth Vader.

ESB and ROTJ are connected because of Han Solo's capture and Vader/Luke's unresolved conflict.

Those trying to make connections between the first 2 movies in the OT will be standing on a shaky bridge.

 

"alot of the humour comes from han solo in the OT, so all he needed was a rogue character (my money was always on bail organa being the solo character) to play off the monk like jedi (not jar jar f$%kin binks!)."

I agree with Darth Onion.

On the main topic, I believe that the PT just started at the wrong time. Ideally, it should have started about the middle of TPM, with Anakin being found, not an hour of background and then... poof, we run into the main character of the saga. And if GL only wanted to show the true origins of the characters of the OT, he probably should have made ANH episode 7. We truly do not see the origins of the prophesy, Palpatine, and the roles that minor characters such as Bail Antilles and Organa would have played in the Old Republic and the Rebellion.

 

rayblueline - Nice reply, and many warm thanks for the nice words about the website; glad you enjoyed it. Alas I think we will agree to disagree, although I will concede that the story in Ep I and II does seem a bit scattered at times. On that I will agree; Lucas is fitting a lot into his two-hour self-imposed time limit, and also, these films are being practically created in the editing room. But the result isnt' bad enough to be considered a real flaw, IMO.

Zethlin Maximus (cool name) - Ekk, I don't think Lucas is making these films out of any sense of obligation, except maybe to himself. He never promised anyone these films would be made, and I think his heart is definitely in this... he's spending 10 years of his life and 300 million dollars of his money on them, so I don't think it's fair to say it's just a CG experiment at this stage of his life. Star Wars has become his life's work, and he is putting his all into this trilogy, it seems to me. And I don't think I fall into the category of less intellectually-demanding, but it's possible I do and just don't know it.

 

I lurk around in the Spoiler room and I can tell you that Episode 3 is going to be more rushed than Episode 2.

 

I'm sorry about my cutting comments, Fierce. It's just that it kind of kills me to see the Star Wars saga turn from an art form, to what now comes across to me as just a cartoon in space; a sort of movie version of a McDonald's take away, if you will. I remember, even as a kid, that ANH, and especially ESB promised sooo very much in the way of genuine old fashioned swashbuckling (Knights of the Round Table style) heroics, high class drama and legendary storylines and plot, that it really gets up my kilt to see a story that could have been on legendary proportions, seemingly (to me at least) dumbed down into a CGI Muppet Show with all these totally improbable coincidental plot lines to top the mess off. Sorry, but it's just too painful for me to even think about it. It hurts waaay too much!

 

"Maul, Tyranus and Vader are all different characters with different defining personalities and abilities that make them almost equally as dangerous as foes to our heroes. Maul, obviously was the weakest and his purpose within the Sith evolved into Tyranus and later Vader. Maul was more of a weapon than a character who always relied on Sidious' direction. The only thing we really knew about him was that he really didn't like the Jedi. Kind of similar to the evolution from Battle Droids to Storm Troopers. "

I agree that Maul served less of a purpose than Vader and Dooku in the long run. But he wasn't the weakest. I feel he was the best swordsman of his time.