Did Lucas Make the Wrong Trilogy?

Lucas stated that he chose to do the middle trilogy because of technical constraints and because it was more interesting and exciting than the first trilogy.

It's the second trilogy, not the middle trilogy. And Lucas didn't plan a series first then pick the fourth movie. He began the script for what became Episode IV (4 years after its release) long before deciding that there would be a series. The series arose from A) the fact that Lucas couldn't fit everything into one script, and B) that he needed a backstory for his current script to make sense.

 

Actually, Lucas *was* planning for some time to do a potential third trilogy, but scrapped these plans roughly around 1978-79, as Empire was ramping up into production, and altered it entirely once Jedi was laid down in stone.

Here's an article from TF.N, wherein Gary Kurtz outlines Lucas's original framework for the nine episodes -- it's interesting stuff:

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[color=blue][b]Gary Kurtz Reveals Original Plans for [i]Episodes 1-9[/i]

Wed, May 26, 99 01:08:05 AM EDT[/b]

Gary Kurtz, the producer of ANH and ESB, spoke at the Sci-Fi Expo in Plano, TX this weekend along with his daughters Tiffany and Melissa (as children they played Jawas in ANH). He shared with the crowd about meeting Lucas, leaving the [i]Star Wars[/i] films and the original plans for the entire saga.

Back in the early 70s, Kurtz was looking to use the new Technoscope technology in an upcoming film. Francis Ford Coppola hooked him up with George Lucas who had recently filmed [i]TXH-1138[/i] with Technoscope. Kurtz became interested in Lucas' planned [i]American Graffiti[/i] and the partnership was born.

When the time came to produce ROTJ, Kurtz was unhappy with the story direction Lucas was taking. He felt that it was too much of a rehash of the first films with no real challenges. At the same time, Jim Henson was inviting him to produce his experimental film, [i]Dark Crystal[/i], which he chose instead.

Kurtz gave TPM a mixed review as he was clouded by plans made for [i]Episode 1[/i] back in the early 70s. As someone involved with [i]Star Wars[/i] from the initial concepts, Kurtz revealed the original intentions for the nine films as they were laid out BEFORE 1980. Very interesting.

[ul][li]EPISODE 1: Was to focus on the origins of the Jedi Knights and how they are initiated and trained[/li]

[li]EPISODE 2: Introduction and development of Obi-Wan Kenobi[/li]

[li]EPISODE 3: Introduction and life of Vader[/li]

[li]EPISODE 4: There were seven different drafts of the film. At one point, they pursued buying the rights to [i]Hidden Fortress[/i] because of the strong similarities. At one point, Luke was a female, Han was Luke's brother, Luke's father was the one in prison (interesting point for some debates) and the film featured 40 wookies[/li]

[li]EPISODE 5: Once written, the screenplay of [i]Empire[/i] is almost exactly what is seen on screen. The only cut scenes were those involving wampas in the rebel base (cut because of time and unsolved technical glitches) and about two minutes of Luke/Yoda Jedi training with no real dialog.[/li]

[li]EPISODE 6: Leia was to be elected "Queen of Her People," leaving her isolated. Han was to die. Luke confronted Vader and went on with his life alone. Leia was not to be Luke's sister.[/li]

[li]EPISODE 7: Third trilogy was to focus on Luke's life as a Jedi, with very few details planned out.[/li]

[li]EPISODE 8: Luke's sister (not Leia) appears from another part of the galaxy.[/li]

[li]EPISODE 9: First appearance of the Emperor.[/li][/ul][/color][hr][/blockquote]

 

"The question was, does it seem like Lucas
made the OT as 7,8, and 9, but billed
them as 4,5, and 6. I'm not asking which
is better, or what you hated about each.
I am just asking if it seems like 1,2, and 3
are actually 1-6 just stuffed into three
movies.

Sheesh."

Well, since you are impatient for an answer, here you go.. [Oops..Leto II beat me to it here. ]

These were the plans presumably as of the production of Empire:

* EPISODE 6: Leia was to be elected "Queen of her people" leaving her isolated. Han was to die. Luke confronted Vader and went on with his life alone. Leia was not to be Luke's sister.

* EPISODE 7: Third trilogy was to focus on Luke's life as a Jedi, with very few details planned out.

* EPISODE 8: Luke's sister (not Leia) appears from another part of the galaxy.

* EPISODE 9: First appearance of the Emperor. - "Was it Six Episodes, or Nine?"

But he doesn't have this....

"The prequels will be altogether different in look and tone from the existing trilogy. They will be more melodramatic, showing the political intrigue and Machiavellian plotting that led to the downfall of the once-noble Republic. They will have only enough outward action to keep the plot moving. Obi-Wan Kenobi?and Darth Vader will be seen as younger men, while Luke Skywalker may make a brief appearance as a baby in Episode III." - Lucas, 1983:

"The first Trilogy will not be as much of an action adventure kind of thing. Maybe we'll make it have some humor, but right now it's much more humorless than this one...a little more Machiavellian - it's all plotting - more of a mystery." - STARLOG Magazine #48, July1982

Happy now? ?

"He's trying to condence what would have been the first six into three movies."

Actually, he condensed concepts of the last trilogy into ROTJ, such as meeting the Emperor and finding his sister (who was made Leia after the fact.)

"Those trying to make connections between the first 2 movies in the OT will be standing on a shaky bridge."

Agreed.

 

The nine-film idea came up during Empire. Empire was also the first time he considered making more than three. During the production of the original, he only intended to make three; no prequels; as evidence by the working titles:

"The Adventures of Luke Skywalker According to the Journal of the Whills, Saga One: The Star Wars"
"Star Wars Chapter II: The Empire Strikes Back."

So it was never a case of "Gee, which of these pre-planned 6 or 9 films should I make first? I'll start with 4!" It was more a case of "Wow! This backstory I came up with could be made into another trilogy."

 

A long time ago, I was a firm believer that there was an amazing, comprehensive treatment of the complete Star Wars saga locked in a safe in the upstairs of a certain Modesto ranch.

I've come to doubt the validity of that assumption.

Copious amounts of information on the various iterations of ANH show that-- as Obi-Ewan has said, Lucas didn't formulate a complete saga, plot it out, and choose the easiest to make episode, as popular legend has it. As indicated above, originally Vader wasn't intended to be Luke's father!

The degree to which the OT (on the strength of Empire and certain elements of Jedi) expanded the mythos of the original-- that is to say, to epic proportions-- is, I believe, a testament to the work of people like Leigh Brackett, Frank Oz, John Williams, etc, rather than a the realization of George's "vision."

On the other hand, some of the quotes from Lucas noted above from 1983 share a remarkable similarity to the PT as it has come to pass nearly a decade later-- suggesting that, at least by the time of Jedi, Lucas had started thinking in grander terms.

Alas, I fear, the PT would have been alot stronger had he'd stayed true to his "less humorous, less action/adventure" intentions as the both the pointless humor (Jar-Jar, "yippie", 3-P0/Battle Droid) and pointless action (Corusant Crazy Taxi, "Super Mario" Droid Factory, "The Planet Core" etc) seem to considerably weaken what is good about the PT.

 

"a testament to the work of people like Leigh Brackett"

Now, I was under the impression that Lucas threw away Brackett's work, having kept a few ideas. Anyone know if there's a copy of her draft anywhere?

 

Not that I've seen around (and believe me, I've checked). Even in sources like The Annotated Screenplays, there are only references made to Brackett's draft, but not actual quotes themselves.

It'd certainly be something interesting to be made publically available one day.

 

Admittedly, my assertation is based on assumption. Brackett was a classical Hollywood writer and much of Empire seems to have that the economy of character and style of a classic Hollywood movie that the other films in the saga lack. While there's no doubt that Kasdan wrote the final screenplay, given the great disparity between Empire and the rest of the series as far as quality / mysticism goes, some would suggest that Kasdan's script owes more to Brackett's draft than Kasdan or Lucas have let on. On the other hand, this theory is disputed by many.

Regardless of if it was Brackett or Kasdan who made Empire into a sublime masterpeice, my point remains: film is a collabrative art form, and Star Wars films are better when Lucas is less involved.

 

"Regardless of if it was Brackett or Kasdan who made Empire into a sublime masterpeice, my point remains: film is a collabrative art form, and Star Wars films are better when Lucas is less involved."

Or, Star Wars films are better when Lucas is involved with more people.

Cometgreen

 

A "diluted" Lucas is a better Lucas.

 

If you want Lucas to be any good, he needs people that can challenge him artistically (Kurtz).

Personally, there is no need for the PT to even exist. The PT that we have currently or the ones that you want made your way are redundant in information and not that important.

You can easily explain all that info in the OT and further episodes through exposition, plus some of the characters/events in the PT don't even connect or are completely forgotten once the OT comes around.

Lucas should have made the six episodes that focused on Luke and his adventures (4-9). The continuation of Luke's story, I think, would have been much more engaging as a story/movie, with Kurtz and other people tagging along pushing Lucas to an even better degree.

 

I agree with TheEliteFetus 100%. GL might have invented Star Wars, but he needs someone like Kurtz to keep him under control artistically. If GL doesn't have this sort of restraint, he has a tendency to come out with all these Ewoks, Jar-Jars and putrid dialogue. I have a feeling that if GL still had Kurtz as producer, the PT would most probably have turned out more like an Excalubur in space, rather than the kiddy's comic book mess that it now is.

 

to lucas's credit he did say that the first trilogy would be far less humorless that OT, in 1987. so apparently he knew they were going to different.

Right, good start. You acknowledge that Lucas was telling you as far back as 12 years before TPM was released that the PT was going to be different from the OT.

i just wonder why he felt it should be so. alot of the humour comes from han solo in the OT, so all he needed was a rogue character (my money was always on bail organa being the solo character) to play off the monk like jedi (not jar jar f$%kin binks!).

Now here is where you start to fall, he felt it would be so because this was a more serious story, full of tragedy. You have a different time in the Star Wars galaxy to deal with. It's where the Republic is in full swing, the Jedi are still very much around and evil is seemingly vanquished. Its not so much a cynical time as the OT. Thats why its different, Han Solo only works for the OT because in those times an evil regime is in control and cynics are in full swing because everything is rather hopeless when you realise tyranny has you in its grubby grip.
In the PT, the characters and the situations are of a different nature. There are Han-Soloish characteristics in Anakin Skywalker, and a lesser extent Obi-Wan as well. Hell Qui-Gon Jinn could be seen as a Han Solo type character because of his rebellious nature against a flawed and complacent Order.
Besides Jar Jar is also perfect for the setting we are presented in.

Also just think how much of a rip off your thoughts are. Having a Han Solo character in the PT is not just unoriginal, but would mean that the PT is a carbon copy of the OT. And you'd be slaughtering Lucas if he'd done that.
You can't have it both ways either you want originality or you want the same thing.

i really do feel lucas dropped the ball with jar jar. he became too self indulgent and obsessed with his humourless cgi creation. jar jar was the only thing that has felt shoe-horned about this trilogy. he has almost admitted it by jar jar's virtual exclusion from AOTC.

Well you may not have liked Jar Jar but alot of youngsters and a fair few fans around here would disagree with you.
Oh and BTW Jar Jar's lesser role was down to the fact that the story could only necessitate such a role. He couldn't have been in more of the picture because well if you look at the story points you'd realise there is no other place to put him because he has no other place of importance.
Jar Jar's smaller role was necessary not because a bunch of 30 year old whiners cried like babies.

 

"Well you may not have liked Jar Jar but alot of youngsters and a fair few fans around here would disagree with you."

That's not much of a defense.

"Oh and BTW Jar Jar's lesser role was down to the fact that the story could only necessitate such a role. He couldn't have been in more of the picture because well if you look at the story points you'd realise there is no other place to put him because he has no other place of importance."

Much like TPM, yet look what happened there.

 

That's not much of a defense.

I'm not trying to defend Jar Jar, just pointing out that there are people out there that like Jar Jar and find his antics entertaining. You don't? I couldn't care at all.


Much like TPM, yet look what happened there.

Hmmm well Jar Jar was important in TPM, and even when I mention he was much integral to the plot of AOTC he still had an important role.

In TPM, Jar Jar:

a)helped the Jedi gain a transport to Theed, speeding up their chance to rescue Queen Amidala.

b)inadvertantly brought Anakin together with himself, Padme & Qui-Gon (getting into fights with dugs and such), therefore setting up the grounds for way off of Tatooine

c)Counsel with the Queen, stating in a matter-of-factly way that the Gungans are a proud warrior race and would fight to the last this then paves the way for...

d)He helps bring the Naboo and the Gungans together, thanks to his spirited outburst on Coruscant, Amidala asks for his and the Gungans help.

e) Despite his bumbling tomfoolery Jar Jar still manages to divert the Droid Army and becomes a hero


And in his smaller, but no less significant role, Jar Jar:

- Made a spirited plea to help his friend Obi-Wan, and "save the Republic. He paved the way for Palpatine to create an Army so that the Republic he served could defend itself, and his friend could be saved.

 

"You don't? I couldn't care at all."

Ooh, you really burned me there.

As for the rest of your post...

The first character to be developed was Jar Jar Binks, the bungling, but in the end heoric, Gungan who has been cast out by his own people. Jar Jar would have a major role ni the movie, comparable to that of Chewbacca in the original Star Wars. This sidekick, however, would do more tha growl and roar. As conceived by Lucas, Jar Jar was a talking, feeling, walking, running, falling, fainting bundle of amphibious comic relief who would, by necessity, be created entirely as a computer-generated character

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Jar Jar was perhaps the most risky character of all--not only because he would be entirely computer generated, but because he was the first truly comedic character ever to inhabit a Star Wars movie. "George told me that we were really going out on a limb," [Ahmed] Best recalled. "See-Threepio was funny, but in a very formal, dry way. And Chewbacca ot some laughs, but he was basically just a big bouncer for the Millenium Falcon. Jar Jar was the first outright comic character."[/i][/b] - [u]The Making of Episode One[/u][/blockquote]
Jar Jar was nothing more than a comedic role that was forced into important scenes. It was a waste of effort. Unlike some people, I don't go for this sort of eye-candy. I would [i]love[/i] to get my hands on a copy of the "Phantom Edit". ;)

 

Ooh, you really burned me there.

LOL and you think thats what I was trying to do? You're not so special. *rolls eyes*


Jar Jar was nothing more than a comedic role that was forced into important scenes. It was a waste of effort. Unlike some people, I don't go for this sort of eye-candy. I would love to get my hands on a copy of the "Phantom Edit".

Points of view, we all have them. You can see him as a waste of effort. I and the truth of the matter, show it to be entirely different. He is quite valuable to the film.

 

"Points of view, we all have them."

Brilliant comeback. BTW, you seemed to have ignored Lucas' in that quote. So much for the in-depth discussion.

"He is quite valuable to the film."

It's not even worth debating. See ya!

 

It's not even worth debating. See ya!

On the contrary, it damn well is.
I fail to see how Jar Jar is not valuable to the heroes journey in film.
There are several points at which it is he, and he alone, that moves certain characters to the next point of where they want to be.

I've pointed out several incidents in one of my previous posts, which shows this.
Now if that doesn't show the value of Jar Jar's inclusion, then please don't fool me with your "its not worth debating" crap.
Put me in my place show me exactly why he isn't valuable.

Point to me in the film why I am wrong.

 

"I agree with TheEliteFetus 100%. GL might have invented Star Wars, but he needs someone like Kurtz to keep him under control artistically."

*sigh*

You know what would make my day? If people would sit down, pull up a small film book, and actually look at the job of a producer. I can guarantee you that producers are not there to "control the director artistically." That's why you have the Art Director, Cinematographer, Props Master, Editor, Composer, and even the actors. The producer is there to get the film in the theaters. Hell, a lot of the time directors don't even like to talk with the screenwriters.

Sorry MeBe, I agree with Terrious. Jar Jar did do a lot in the films. Please, and this goes for everyone, don't reply with "But his actions could have been performed by anyone else." That's just stupid.

Cometgreen

 

Yes. Of course he made the wrong trilogy. The reason that it was the wrong trilogy to make is the fact that we know everything that is going to happen. Sure, it is great that we get to find out how Darth Vader is a robot, whoopdiefricking doo. When a director comes out and says that a film is not going to be engaging, isn't that a sign you are telling a story that really is not worth telling.
A good idea would have been Episode VII,, because then we don't know what is going to happen, I think that Lucas is and was afraid to make the movies

-Star Wars Episode III: End of the Jedi

 

"don't reply with "But his actions could have been performed by anyone else." That's just stupid."

It's not what Jar Jar did, it's how he did it. Lucas' own comments speak volumes to the intent of the character. It sticks out from the rest of the film.

 

It's not what Jar Jar did, it's how he did it. Lucas' own comments speak volumes to the intent of the character. It sticks out from the rest of the film.

Backing down are we?

So he is valuable in what he did. Good nice to see a basher put in his place.
And on to your comment, well its subjective really. Besides I like how Jar Jar did those things, and it fitted, in my mind, perfectly well with the tone of the film and the story itself.

 

Jar Jar Stinks and Luca$ knows it now.

The only reason why he in a SW Universe to begin with is so Luca$ can cash in on kid merchandising sells and McDonald happy meals.

 

"So he is valuable in what he did. Good nice to see a basher put in his place."

From your point of view, perhaps. You seem good at convincing yourself of unintended conclusions.

"And on to your comment, well its subjective really."

Christ, man. You want me to "convince" you otherwise, and then keep hiding behind the "it's all opinion" argument? Ridiculous. That's exactly why I'm not going to waste my time debating this issue with you, to see you run away yelling "Well, it's my opinion!" regardless of what I say.