Did Luke Know?

Watching the OT again I thought of something very rather interesting...Luke never was told how his father actually became Darth Vader...what I mean is that he knew he had fallen to the Darkside, but the history behind the suit, why he was so messed up physically...we only know because of the toy line which told us about the Lava pit battle...but Obi-Wan nor Yoda ever told Luke that Anakin had been defeated and "killed" by Obi-Wan himself...I wonder now what Luke would've done if he had known...what do you all think?

 

I think Luke only knew what Yoda and Ben wanted him to know. I doubt he knew the details of Anakin's fall or the morally ambiguous decisions he made.

Perhaps after ROTJ's events he communicated with Anakin's ghost and learned his side of the story.

 

I think Obi-Wan and Yoda both knew that the belief that Vader killed his father would motivate Luke to want to confront Vader, and they were able to use Vader's fall to the dark side as an object lesson for Luke without revealing the key fact that he used to be Anakin.

I recall reading this somewhere (and I think it makes sense regardless of the source) that Obi-Wan and Yoda intended to train Luke fully until he was powerful enough to confront Vader, then send him off, and only tell him the truth after he had killed Vader. That way they would avoid the complexity and hesitation that would arise in Luke if they told him earlier.

Note Yoda's dialog in ROTJ after Luke reveals what Vader told him. "Told you did he ... unexpected this is, and unfortunate."

If Obi-Wan and Yoda had told Luke the truth, they would have to hope that he'd still be motivated to confront Vader and if necessary kill him. They did not believe there was any redemption for Anakin, period.

 

I think they didnt tell Luke about the battle is b/c they didnt want Luke having any ill will toward Ob-Wan. Other than that i dont see much difference.

 

I think Obi-Wan and Yoda both knew that the belief that Vader killed his father would motivate Luke to want to confront Vader, and they were able to use Vader's fall to the dark side as an object lesson for Luke without revealing the key fact that he used to be Anakin.

Wow. I never thought of that before, honestly. It's an interesting point. Was Luke motivated enough to do what he did just for good? Without the knowledge that Vader had killed his father, would Luke still fight for the Rebellion? It adds depth to Luke's character to think about that.

I honestly believe that Luke would have done what he did regardless if he knew. The character GL crafted for him just seems like the kind of guy who does things because they are right.

-Krystal

 

He would have probably gone to him as his son. That's what he did in ROTJ. He sensed
some good still in his father when Obi-Wan and Yoda felt that Darth Cader was beyond help. By the time Luke found out about his father he was ready to face him. If he knew the truth from the beginning, he wouldn't have been ready to face him.

 

If you believe that the ROTJ novel is canon, then Obi Wan does tell Luke that they fought.

(But then, if you believe that the ROTJ novel is canon, then you believe that Obi Wan and Owen are brothers...)

DarthNigel

>>>I think Obi-Wan and Yoda both knew that the belief that Vader killed his father would motivate Luke to want to confront Vader, and they were able to use Vader's fall to the dark side as an object lesson for Luke without revealing the key fact that he used to be Anakin.

I don't think that's what they were planning. I think it was just a way of telling Luke the truth ("from a certain point of view") and giving him a father figure to respect and want to follow.

The reason they didn't tell him that Vader is his father is because they needed Vader to tell him. Their plan revolved around that moment- Vader acknowledging Luke as his son.

Once Anakin has become Vader, he has turned his back on his whole life, and rejected his identity as Anakin Skywalker. "That name no longer has any meaning for me." The important thing to bear in mind is that Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are two different characters (kind of like Gollum/Smeagol...) Anakin is Luke's father; Darth Vader is an artificial, man-made persona. However, although he is more machine than man, there is still a man inside the machine. (Which kind of ties in with the bomb inside him in TPM- the machine inside the man... but anyway...)

So Obi Wan needs to bring back Anakin. He can't face him himself and do it- Anakin is clearly filled with hatred for him. So he uses his son as the one thing left that might connect with the man inside. His plan is to make Vader confront Luke, so that Vader will acknowledge Luke as his son, forcing him to acknowledge his own identity as Anakin Skywalker.

Although he does this in ESB as planned, Luke simply doesn't have the strength to deal with it yet. This revelation destroys Luke's world.

Bear in mind that Yoda (and Obi Wan) were trying to stop Luke from leaving Dagobah in ESB because he wasn't ready, yet when he returned and Yoda was on his deathbead, the one thing he told Luke to do was to confront Vader- and this is before he knows that Luke knows the truth about him.

He was waiting for Luke to be strong enough to deal with it. Which he wasn't at the time, but is when he returns to face him in ROTJ.

LUKE
I will not turn...and you'll be forced to kill me.

VADER
If that is your destiny.

LUKE
Search your feelings, father. You can't do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate.

VADER
It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now.

LUKE
Then my father is truly dead.

>>>>I recall reading this somewhere (and I think it makes sense regardless of the source) that Obi-Wan and Yoda intended to train Luke fully until he was powerful enough to confront Vader, then send him off, and only tell him the truth after he had killed Vader. That way they would avoid the complexity and hesitation that would arise in Luke if they told him earlier.

I don't think that fits in with the films though.

Look at ESB- he fights and kills "Vader" in the cave, yet fails Yoda's test. They only tell him to "face Vader" and "confront Vader" and "defeat Vader"- never to "kill Vader." If that was their goal, then it seems odd that they never mention it.

Obi Wan does make it clear that if he cannot kill his father, then the Emperor has won. But that ties in with why Luke fails the test in the cave- he has to fight as a Jedi- "with the Force as his ally." Doing the Will of the Force- not carrying out this plan that is stuck in his head. If Vader doesn't turn, then sure- he's going to have to fight him, or at least be able to kill him. (Of course, as it works out, it's only when he is about to kill him that Palpatine makes the mistake of revealing that he plans for Luke to take his place. So that was true...)

And if Obi Wan wanted V

 

Excellent points Scott3eyez.

So he uses his son as the one thing left that might connect with the man inside. His plan is to make Vader confront Luke, so that Vader will acknowledge Luke as his son, forcing him to acknowledge his own identity as Anakin Skywalker.

Ah, and there it is. Vader confronting Luke- that's the real reason. It's easy to forget that Obi-Wan and Yoda are probably still trying to fulfill the prophecy. To do that, they need Vader to deal with Luke, not the other way around. Of course it's a good test for Luke, the ulimate test really, of whether he can be a Jedi or not. And Ben and Yoda are surely trying to bring back the Order. But the most important thing is to fulfill this prophecy, to redeem Vader, as no one else can get to the Emperor. They may not ever say it outright in the OT, but again it's one of the only ways to completely justify Ben and Yoda's actions. They are probably also very keen to make up for their past mistakes, which were paramount in creating the situation with Anakin in the first place. Luke is their only saving grace.

 

I see the validity of your points guys,

I've been thinking more about Yoda's line in ESB, "Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor; if you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil."

("Conquering Vader" in the above quote could be interpreted as a reference to exactly what happened: Luke and Anakin together conquered Vader.)

I guess one way to look at it is: Yoda and Obi-Wan knew that Luke was their key to defeating Vader and the Emperor, in one of two ways: (1) either Luke would spark Vader to recognize the error of his ways, and Vader would revert and kill the Emperor, fulfilling the prophesy, or (2) Vader would not turn back, in which case Luke would have to kill Vader -- with a purity of intention lacking any anger, thus preventing him from falling to the Dark Side -- and then destroy the Emperor.

They knew that they would have to prepare Luke so that he would act correctly in either of those two scenarios. Also, they knew that the determining factor which would decide which of those two scenarios played out was really up to Anakin - they could not predict what he would do, so they had to plan for both. That meant not letting Luke leave to confront them until he was fully trained: when he left early, that put an "unexpected and unfortunate" twist on their plans, to use Yoda's line from ROTJ.

In ROTJ, when Luke is expressing his hope that Vader can be turned back, that there is some good left in him, Obi-Wan's response ("more machine now than man, twisted and evil") can be interpreted as an attempt to counterbalance Luke's biases, so that he will not rule out option (2) above in case Vader does not turn back.

Even though all of their spoken lines show that they are pushing Luke toward the "kill-Vader" option, perhaps they were secretly betting on the "Vader-turns-back" outcome. Why? Because there was a prophesy for Anakin to fulfill, because Vader/Anakin was more likely than Luke to have the sheer power and ability needed to destroy the Emperor, and because Anakin's known attachment to his personal relationships - e.g. Shmi, Padme - would likely extend to Luke and would be a weakness to expoit.

However, they could not let Luke know these things. Whether to turn back or not was Anakin's choice to make. Luke had to be ready, willing, and able to kill Vader if Vader didn't turn back. Especially after Luke found out the truth, and his "soft spot" for Vader became apparent, they knew that Luke would do everything he could to prompt Anakin to revert. What remained then was to make sure Luke knew that if Vader didn't turn back, he had to kill him. Obi-Wan's lines in ROTJ can be seen as an attempt to reinforce that understanding in Luke.

Edit: typos

 

Also, Scott, you stated,

"And if Obi Wan wanted Vader dead, why did he not finish the job the first time they fight, and why does he give up the fight in ANH? Come to that, why does he wait 20 years to train Luke- does he expect to be able to train him to become more powerful than he is himself? "

Obi-Wan didn't just want Vader dead, he also wanted the Emperor dead. Perhaps he knew that Anakin had a better chance of destroying the Emperor than anyone, and if not Anakin then Luke. If Vader was dead, then obviously he could not turn back and kill the Emperor. Also, if Vader was dead, then Luke would have no chance of getting close enough to the Emperor to kill him - as the Emperor said in ESB, his first instinct was to destroy Luke outright, and it was Vader who convinced him otherwise. Obi-Wan knew that he himself would not be able to turn Anakin back because Anakin had so much residual hatred for him from the past, hatred which would not extend to Luke.

 

I don't think it would have mattered that much. Luke would have understood that Obi-Wan fighting Anakin had to be done.

 

Only prob with all of this is that Yoda did tell Luke to kill him in essence. He told Luke "face him you must" and Luke said "I can't kill my own father" and Yoda then replied "then all is lost" or something along those lines.

 

obi-wan said: 'then the emperor has already won' (not yoda)

 

darth_shockwave is correct. Yoda tells Luke: "Vader - You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will."

Later, Luke tells Obi-Wan "I can't kill my own father" and Obi-Wan says "Then the Emperor has already won."

 

darth_shockwave is correct. Yoda tells Luke: "Vader - You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will."

Later, Luke tells Obi-Wan "I can't kill my own father" and Obi-Wan says "Then the Emperor has already won."

The fact that obi-Wan says "Then the Emperor has already won." does not neccessarily mean that he wants Luke to kill. The way I interpet it, I think that Obi is affraid confront=to kill, which means the darkside would win, w/ a new Skywalker, ergo Yoda and Ben lost thier best hope. They want Luke to be able to go in confront, and turn his father. They do not want him to simply go in light saber charged. They realize that a battle of pyschology Luke can win, but sheer saber-saber battle he will not beat the chosen one. This is perhaps how Obi-Wan wins the battle during ep iii.

Also I must agree w/ Darth_Nigel, Yoda & Ben due intend to tell Luke that Vader=Anakin=luke's dad, but his rushing to save his friends, ruined thier time frame. For the most part they do an excellent job of hiding Luke for about 20 yrs, w/ no one knowing, except for a select few, of his lineage. However they do leave him out in the open for Vader to put 2+2together. Why didn't they change his name, b/c they wanted Vader to slowly confront his past. They wanted Anakin to come back. During the pts we have seen Anakin value 2 things more than anything else, power and love. Love for his mother, love for Padme. Through Luke they were trying to bring back the Anakin that loved.

Also here is a little bit more speculation for ep iii, and please remember I am spoiler free. I must once again refer to Darth_Nigel when he suggests that maybe they needed AnaVader to destroy Sidious. Why? We know he is powerful in the force, maybe he is so powerful that only AnaVader can defeat him. Maybe the Jedi tried, and Palps defeated Mace, or Yoda or Ben, but not neccessarily killed them. We don't truely know his background, and we have only scene him in combat once. And the biggest reason he lost was his over confidence. Why is he so confident, why is Vader so fearful of him? Maybe he can wipe the floor w/ Yoda. Just think a Sidious-Yoda fight. B/c you just know that GL is going all out for epiii, and what better way than the Ultimate Sith v. Ultimate Jedi.

*salvates*

Just a thought.