CT Did Luke not know about Force Lightning until Palpatine hit him with it?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Darth Valkyrus, Jun 19, 2013.

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  1. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5
    For most of the PT (that happens offscreen) Yoda is guru-like and non-combative. Spends most of it hanging out in the high council temple.
  2. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 3

    Hmm, that's a good point but the transcript goes on as follows:

    Lucas: Well, he is a teacher, not a real Jedi.

    and

    Kasdan: You mean he wouldn’t be any good in a fight?
    Lucas: Not with Darth Vader he wouldn’t.
    Last edited by kubricklynch, Jul 4, 2013
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  3. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    It does seem a little odd. Even early on, EU writers saw Jedi Masters as something extremely powerful.

    In Heir to the Empire, we hear of how Yoda was one of those that put down the Bphasshi Dark Jedi insurrection- and it's implied that a battle between Jedi Masters would be a terrifying sight.
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  4. SkywalkerJedi02 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2013
    star 1
    Of course he didn't he was only taught the Light side of the force, the way of the Jedi so I'm I'm suprissed that He was shocked when the emperor nailed him with it.
  5. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    In the OT, Yoda certainly was a guru. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a great warrior once. And wise enough, wisdom earned the hard way, to know what makes one truly great.

    I thought it was well established that Luke was barely trained? Why does this thread exist? :)

    And yet with Anakin Skywalker's help, he goes on to victory. Exaltivit Humiles.
  6. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    It is not "well established". It is EU-nonsense that contradicts the movies.

    RotJ Yoda made abundantly clear that the only thing Luke was missing to being a full-fledged Jedi was another confrontation with Vader. He definitely had all the important skills (as Yoda said as well).

    And why is RotJ retconned? Because the EU-authors (especially KJA) couldn't reign themselves in and had to give Luke more and more ridiculous powers the older he got.
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  7. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    I wouldn't say overconfidence; rather a deep faith in the Force to protect and guide him, as it did...because Luke's suffering at the hands of the Emperor opened up the opportunity for Vader to fulfil the Prophecy. Whereas if Luke had learnt of Force-lightning then maybe the Prophecy would not have been fulfilled at that time. Just a thought.
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  8. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The prequel movies make it clear that it can take 20-odd years of training to become a Jedi.

    The EU conclusion, that Luke received a "crash course" giving him only what they thought he needed to know, actually makes a lot of sense given this context.
  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    We don't know why the training in the prequels takes 20-odd years. It may be to teach the pupils how to be responsible and wise, not to teach them the force skills. Anakin Skywalker was able to do impressive things with the force at the age of 9, bar any training. OT Luke also used the force in impressive ways, like when he choked the Gamorrean guards.

    In any case it is not well established that Luke was half-trained in RotJ. It is anything but well established because what we have right now is a contradictory mess.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 22, 2013
  10. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Then the only conclusion to draw taking this at face value is that Yoda is lying to Luke, and he in fact has not learned all that is required. Because that's what Yoda tells him. So, either it's true or Yoda is a liar.

    Yoda doesn't tell him you know some of what is required, or a part of what is required, or that you got the summer school version of the training. He tells him he already knows what is required
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Jul 22, 2013
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  11. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    "Already know you that which you need"

    Doesn't mean "Already know you everything that an Old Jedi Order Knight knows."

    And, since Yoda's just about to die- him responding to Luke saying "I've come back to complete the training" with "You could use more training, that I won't be able to give to you" - would be a bit pointless, and damaging to Luke's morale.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jul 22, 2013
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  12. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Since Luke defeated the Emperor anyway, apparently he didn't need to know about Force lightning.
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  13. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    That which you need to withstand Vader and/or Palpatine.

    This dialogue is not ambiguous:

    Yoda: No more training do you require. Already know you, that which you need.
    Luke: Then I am a Jedi.
    Yoda: No. Not yet. One thing remains. Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.
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  14. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    What did Luke learn between ESB and RoTJ- without Yoda's help- that turned him from being someone who "feels the force- but cannot control it" to a borderline Jedi?
  15. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    People here will pretend it doesn't mean what it means, it's just the nature of it
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  16. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Self control. Using the force in the OT is just a matter of willing it, of self control, nothing more.
  17. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 4
    I don't think it was as much what he learned, as it was what he experienced. The loss of a right hand is a traumatic experience; he was still young enough to run around dodging danger and feeling adventurous and immortal, but losing his hand should have caused him to feel his own mortality. On top of that, his idolized heroic mythic father turned out to be the biggest villain he'd ever heard of. That kind of emotional shock can have profound affects on a personality. So Luke had to deal with these things, and when he had, he came out the other side wiser, emotionally stronger, and more in control of himself. What he had lacked before was maturity; he grew up and became ready to take on the responsibilities of a Jedi knight.
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  18. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    I think Luke knew as much as he needed to know because he knew enough to pass on the jedi religion. The last thing Yoda tells him is to, "pass on what he had learned", and that there were other potential jedi out there.

    Teaching the jedi powers was the easy part. (PT jedi didn't display too many more powers than what we saw Luke doing.) Teaching Luke to have faith in the force was the end goal. I think the 20 year padawan training was mostly about preparing them to serve the Republic in an official capacity by giving them firsthand experience in important matters, and also purging them of darker tendencies. But Luke didn't have to worry about serving the galaxy in any official capacity. Most of Luke's training consisted of instilling a strong faith in the force to guide him.

    Yoda may have expected Luke to create more disciples before he ever faced the emperor. But however things ended up happening, I think Yoda had faith that the force would work through Luke to set matters straight.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Jul 22, 2013
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  19. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    It may simply be that, by skipping the last stage of training that he would have undergone if he hadn't left in ESB- his formal training was incomplete despite his self-promotion to Jedi Knight (following Yoda's guidelines to him) after defeating Vader:

    "You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

    It's not necessarily wrong for EU sources to bring up the incompleteness of his formal training.

    Example: In The Crystal Star, Xaverri and Han discuss Luke:

    "I demanded some proof that he was a true representative of the New Republic. He removed his disguise."
    "So he did look different to you, at first?"
    "Very different. But he released me from his influence." She shivered slightly. "He is very skilled, Solo. I did not even know he was affecting me, until he let me go."
    "He's talented," Han said. "But he never had the chance to finish his formal training."
    "Ah," she said. "That's said to be very dangerous."
    "Yes. And he's had occasion to realize it."
    "I had heard ... some rumors on that subject," Xaverri said.
    "Did you?" Han said. "We thought we'd managed to keep it from public knowledge."
    "Perhaps you did," Xaverri replied. "But I am not precisely the public ... and I put considerable energy into cultivating many lines of communication."

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  20. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    OH NO! Don't quote Crystal Star! I hate that book >.<

    No, but you're right. Luke's training was incomplete. And that is more than just a trivial factor in all this.

    What he probably missed out on mostly, and the context of that Crystal Star dialogue would support this, is moral and ethical training, more than learning new powers. Luke always seemed to have problems deciding how the force could and should be used, and where the line between light and dark begins and ends. I think he learned most of the basic jedi powers that they were generally taught to PT jedi (and there doesn't seem to be that many of them) The jedi mind trick, telekinesis, physical enhancement, and a few others that we saw him learn. The one I can think of that he never displayed was the super speed that we saw in Episode 1. Oddly enough, that could have come in handy several times during the PT, but we only saw it that once. :/
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  21. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    There was an interesting essay on the ethical use of the Jedi Mind Trick in Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to The Force- by one of the council members in TPM- the long-necked guy, Yarrel Poof.

    It made the point that using it carelessly on people can end up getting them sacked by their employers, among other things- so it does need strong justification.
  22. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    Indeed. And if I remember correctly, Akannah, Luke's lover? during The Black Fleet Crisis put question to almost everything Luke did with the force.
    She often annoyed me with it, but she did get Luke to stop and think about the way he did things with the force even as a jedi master.
  23. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Mara also brought it up in Vision of the Future- though these days people are complaining that her speech about Luke's iffy choices, was very hamhanded and inaccurate.
  24. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    I'll have to read that part again. I can't remember all that she said, but what I can remember reading all seemed like an accurate assessment to me at the time,
    and Luke didn't seem to dispute any of it. :p
  25. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Fun as discussion of Vision of the Future might be- it probably belongs better in the Literature section.

    The basic idea I was getting at was that Luke didn't learn everything Jedi should know in ESB and RoTJ- and that Yoda's "Already know you that which you need" can be overemphasised somewhat.
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