PT Did Mace Windu effectively destroy the Jedi?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Graves101, May 6, 2013.

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  1. Graves101 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2013
    star 1
    Sorry for another Windu thread, but something else came to my mind. For one thing, why did Mace just pridefully bring a small team of random Jedi, instead of bringing an entire army with him? He should've thought somewhere in his mind ''this is the ultimate Sith lord of Sith lords'', but he still brought a very small group. Yoda wasn't even begged to come.

    Then, when he disarms Palpatine, he could've simply arrested him, but he actually forsook Jedi Code, and was hellbent on cutting off Palpatine's head. Like he wasn't even reasonable, as he ignored Anakin entirely like he wasn't even in the office, even when Anakin was literally sweating and begging him to not kill Sidious.
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  2. BarkingFrog Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2009
    star 2
    His overconfidence was his weakness.

    He probably should have brought Anakin with him. Things probably would have been a lot different if Anakin had been there.

    Yeah, I think Mace Windu messed up extraordinarily. He was a great Jedi but he ****ed up.
    Last edited by BarkingFrog, May 7, 2013
  3. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    I believe Mac Windu was one of the key figures in causing the downfall of the Jedi. He was always extremely unkind to Anakin, and brushed by him as though he was worth nothing. He was extremely proud and very overconfident. He was also way to bound by the Jedi Code, so much that he could not see the forest for the trees.
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  4. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Darth Sidious destroyed the Jedi Order, Master Windu was just another piece to the puzzle.
  5. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Why does everyone always blame Mace Windu, the one trying to avoid the destruction of the Jedi?
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  6. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    While I agree Mace made a mistake in not bringing Anakin with him to arrest Palpatine, I do feel Mace is unecessarilly made the scapegoat. I've often said, when Anakin shows up at the office and Mace sees him, Mace make a kind of "stay back" gesture that IMO acknowledges they are allies. It is Anakin who betrays the Jedi, not the other way around. Mace was arrogant enough to ignore the prophecy and try to kill Sidious, and he was perhaps too distrustful of Anakin, but he has just started to trust Anakin (in his own words... "If what you have told me is true, you will have gained my trust") and Anakin stabs him in the back. I am a huge Anakin fan, but I think people blame Mace so that they can feel better about Anakin's atrocious actions.
  7. Master Jedi Macen Arren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2013
    star 1
    No. Mace certainly had faults a) The way he treated Anakin b) Underestimating the Sith. But the reason for the Jedi's destruction was because of there old ways and there old ideals. Yoda was probably the only Jedi to have come up against a Sith (guessing this from the way Ki-Adi mundi says the sith have been extinct for a milennia). That was the basic problem, Yoda was going from his experience all that time ago, he and the Jedi didn't evolve, The Sith did.
    Last edited by Master Jedi Macen Arren, May 7, 2013
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  8. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Has to be the way that Mace spoke about Anakin and how gruff he was when Anakin came to him with the truth. I guess fans don't like how he didn't buy the whole prophecy thing and the fact that he didn't listen to boy wunder.
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  9. Beautiful_Disaster Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2005
    star 4
    Like Anakin told Palpatine after he killed Dooku:

    PALPATINE: You did well, Anakin. He was too dangerous to be kept alive.
    ANAKIN: Yes, but he was an unarmed prisoner. I shouldn't have done that, Chancellor. It's not the Jedi way.

    Not trying to downplay Anakin's involvement in the destruction of the Jedi (and yes, it was huge) but I do believe Mace deserves a little blame for letting his pride get in the way of what he should have done, which was arrest Papatine.

    And the same could be said for Anakin in some respects, then. He was a means to an end to destroy the Jedi.
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  10. Vladimir777 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2013
    It's hard to blame Mace Windu for not trusting Anakin when Anakin ends up killing him (basically). I agree with those who say that Mace Windu didn't destroy the Jedi--Darth Sidious and, to a lesser extent, Darth Vader did. They didn't self-destruct because they were corrupt. This made it easier for the Sith to overtake them, but were there no Sith, the Jedi would not have been destroyed, probably for a long time.

    I never really blamed Mace, like I said, for distrusting Anakin. Although I wonder how things would've turned out different had Anakin not fallen to the Dark Side. Do you guys think that if Anakin had better training and mentoring, he still would've defeated Darth Sidious as a Jedi, thus fulfilling the prophecy?
  11. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
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    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    I don't think better training and mentoring would have ultimately stopped his fall to the dark side... but in a way, he did defeat Palpatine/Sidious as a Jedi... if the "Return of the Jedi" refers at all to Anakin. And either way, he did fulfill the prophecy and prove that he was the chosen one, even though it took Luke pushing him and years of dark side behavior before he got there.
  12. Billy_Dee_Binks Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2002
    star 4
    Nice!

    Not according to how they originally shot this scene.
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  13. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    Mace just managed to screw everything up that day.
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  14. benknobi1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2002
    star 6
    Perhaps if Mace brought more Jedi, Sidious would have sensed the threat and simply activated order66 anyway.
    Last edited by benknobi1, May 7, 2013
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  15. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Absolutely. All the Jedi were pawns on the board for Sidious, if he turned Anakin... bonus! If not, so be it.
    Personal gloat: I loved spoiling the 3SA with that scene...
    I had the novel dialog in February of oh-five and when I posted it, man that raised a ruckus.

    Anyways, one of my favorite shots is this:

    [IMG]
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, May 7, 2013
  16. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2013
    star 3
    I believe that everything that happened in ROTS was because Palpatine played it all like a chess game. He knew Anakin wouldn't have been allowed to come arrest him with whoever else Jedi. Mace was just part of Palpatine's plan and it worked.
  17. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Mace didn't destroy the Jedi, Palpatine did.

    As far as whether things would have been different if Anakin had been allowed to come...Anakin would have seen Palpatine kill three Jedi Masters in cold blood, but I don't think Anakin would have cared. Literally the only thing Anakin cared about at that point was keeping Padme alive. He was willing to kill small children in order to make that happen, therefore I doubt that anything that happened in Palpatine's office would have stopped him.

    As far as Mace...Mace didn't arrest Palpatine because Palpatine had control of the Senate and the courts and a "trial" would have been a joke. The tragedy is that it took the Jedi so long to realize this; by the time ROTS came around, they were pretty much ****ed.
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  18. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2007
    star 4
    Sidious played them like one plays a musical instrument. Not to mention he's a master at strategy and he was playing both sides of the war.

    Sidious got the Jedi Council desperate. In RotS they are doing things that they rather not do (putting Anakin on the Council then behind the scenes ordering him to spy on the Chancellor).

    The Jedi were caught between a rock and a hard place at the time of RotS. The Council knew that the Sith were several steps ahead of them. So they tried to get ahead of the Sith without knowing that they were playing right into the Sith Master's hands.


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  19. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    I don't know about this logic. Basically, say you're the head of the Secret Service (Mace Windu). Earlier that day, one of your agents killed the head of the Taliban, even though he was unarmed. Now, later that day, the President of the United States tells that Secret Service member that he has demonic powers, plans to completely destroy and kill every secret service member, and also plans to convert the U.S. government into something which resembles a blend of Stalin's rule and Hitler's. That secret service member passes this knowledge on to you, the head of the Secret Service. And earlier that week, Congress gave him emergency powers because the Taliban was building an evil robot army.

    You could arrest the President, but he has complete control over both the Judiciary branch and the legislative branch, he won't be detained long, and he'll likely get the charges dropped. Even if they aren't, he'll likely get a pardon from his successor (possibly due to political maneuvering/his demonic powers) similar to Ford pardoning Nixon. While the President has been ruling for the past week like a Catherine the Great or James I, he plans to start acting like a Caligula/Hitler/Stalin.

    Killing him would be in the best interest of the Secret Service (Jedi Order), mankind (Galaxy), and Goodness (the lightside).
    Last edited by Chainmail_Jedi, May 7, 2013
  20. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
    The Jedi did not plan for this (or any other) contingency and their lack of planning killed them.

    Worse, in the absence of a plan, they didn't heed their own advice. PATIENCE. USE THE FORCE. THINK. As so eloquently put by a guy who minutes earlier jumped out a window to hang onto a droid he had no idea could support his weight or where it was going or whether it could blow itself up or crash itself to kill him.

    Because they had no plan, they rushed in foolishly to confront Palpatine IN PRIVATE. Under these conditions there is no possible way they could have won. Had they instead gathered and presented evidence in public, and arrested Palpatine in public, things could have been much different.
  21. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Why would he bring an entire army to arrest one person?

    Yet he managed to defeat Sidious.

    Yoda was on Kashyyyk.

    False. He was going to arrest Palpatine, but only when Palpatine strike back with lightning he decided to kill him. And he had a good reason: "he's too dangerous to be kept alive".

    Really? He declared Palpatine under arrest, Palpatine killed for of his colleagues and tries to kill him, Mace disarms him and still tries to arrest him, and Palpatine tries to kill him again. How exactly was he being unreasonable?
  22. heels1785 Jedi Draft Commissioner

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2003
    star 6
    I don't think "person" does him justice when you think of what he managed to hoodwink the Order into. Its a legitimate question.
  23. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    That's a matter of intellect, not numbers. Mace was able to defeat him on his own. No army needed.
  24. heels1785 Jedi Draft Commissioner

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2003
    star 6
    It's a matter of ability and power. Sure, Mace defeated him, but the outcome was still failure.
    Last edited by heels1785, May 8, 2013
  25. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    Mace's actions in the Palpatine's chambers make sense to me, but I think his mistakes occurred before he even arrived. Of course, the real blame falls on Palpatine, but Mace's rash decision without having a full plan thought out puts them in even greater danger.

    As SweetZombieJesus says:
    "The Jedi did not plan for this (or any other) contingency and their lack of planning killed them.

    Worse, in the absence of a plan, they didn't heed their own advice. PATIENCE. USE THE FORCE. THINK. As so eloquently put by a guy who minutes earlier jumped out a window to hang onto a droid he had no idea could support his weight or where it was going or whether it could blow itself up or crash itself to kill him.

    Because they had no plan, they rushed in foolishly to confront Palpatine IN PRIVATE. Under these conditions there is no possible way they could have won. Had they instead gathered and presented evidence in public, and arrested Palpatine in public, things could have been much different."

    This passage from the novelization also, in my view, shows that Mace was rash, let his temper get the better of him, and wasn't thinking about all the possible consequences of his actions. Consider how Yoda keeps focusing on the consequences of acting rashly and and consider how Mace is the only one speaking out of anger in the following discussion.

    "This report—from where does it come?" "The Jedi still have friends in the Senate," Mace Windu replied in his grim monotone, "for now." "When presented this amendment is, passed it will be?" Mace nodded. "My source expects passage by acclamation. Overwhelming passage. Perhaps as early as this afternoon." "The Chancellor's goal in this—unclear to me it is," Yoda said slowly. "Though nominally in command of the Council, the Senate may place him, the Jedi he cannot control. Moral, our authority has always been; much more than merely legal. Simply follow orders, Jedi do not!""I don't think he intends to control the Jedi," Mace said. "By placing the Jedi Council under the control of the Office of the Supreme Chancellor, this amendment will give him the constitutional authority to disband the Order itself."
    "Surely you cannot believe this is his intention." "His intention?" Mace said darkly. "Perhaps not. But his intentions are irrelevant; all that matters now is the intent of the Sith Lord who has our government in his grip. And the Jedi Order may be all that stands between him and galactic domination. What do you think he will do?" "Authority to disband the Jedi, the Senate would never grant.""The Senate will vote to grant exactly that. This afternoon." "The implications of this, they must not comprehend!" "It no longer matters what they comprehend," Mace said. "They know where the power is.""But even disbanded, even without legal authority, still Jedi we would be. Jedi Knights served the Force long before there was a Galactic Republic, and serve it we will when this Republic is but dust.""Master Yoda, that day may be coming sooner than any of us think. That day may be today." Mace shot a frustrated look at Obi-Wan, who picked up his cue smoothly. "We don't know what the Sith Lord's plans may be," Obi- Wan said, "but we can be certain that Palpatine is not to be trusted. Not anymore. This draft resolution is not the product of some overzealous Senator; we may be sure Palpatine wrote it himself and passed it along to someone he controls—to make it- look like the Senate is once more 'forcing him to reluctantly accept extra powers in the name of security.' We are afraid that they will continue to do so until one day he's 'forced to reluctantly accept' dictatorship for life!""I am convinced this is the next step in a plot aimed directly at the heart of the Jedi," Mace said. "This is a move toward our destruction. The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor." Obi-Wan added, "As it has surrounded and cloaked the Separatists since even before the war began. If the Chancellor is being influenced through the dark side, this whole war may have been, from the beginning, a plot by the Sith to destroy the Jedi Order." "Speculation!" Yoda thumped the floor with his gimer stick, making his hoverchair bob gently. "On theories such as these we cannot rely. Proof' we need. Proof!" "Proof may be a luxury we cannot afford." A dangerous light had entered Mace Windu's eyes. "We must be ready to act!" "Act?" Obi-Wan asked mildly. "He cannot be allowed to move against the Order. He cannot be allowed to prolong the war needlessly. Too many Jedi have died already. He is dismantling the Republic itself! I have seen life outside the Republic; so have you, Obi-Wan. Slavery. Torture. Endless war."Mace's face darkened with the same distant, haunted shadow Obi-Wan had seen him wear the day before. "I have seen it in Nar Shaddaa, and I saw it on Haruun Kal. I saw what it did to Depa, and to Sora Bulq. Whatever its flaws, the Republic is our sole hope for justice, and for peace. It is our only defense against the dark. Palpatine may be about to do what the Separatists cannot: bring down the Republic. If he tries, he must be removed from office." "Removed?" Obi-Wan said. "You mean, arrested?" Yoda shook his head. "To a dark place, this line of thought will lead us. Great care, we must take." "The Republic is civilization. It's the only one we have." Mace looked deeply into Yoda's eyes, and into Obi-Wan's, and Obi-Wan could feel the heat in the Korun Master's gaze. "We must be prepared for radical action. It is our duty." "But," Obi-Wan protested numbly, "you're talking about treason..." "I'm not afraid of words, Obi-Wan! If it's treason, then so be it. I would do this right now, if I had the Council's support. The real treason," Mace said, "would be failure to act!""Such an act, destroy the Jedi Order it could," Yoda said. "Lost the trust of the public, we have already--" "No disrespect, Master Yoda," Mace interrupted, "but that's a politician's argument. We can't let public opinion stop us from doing what's right.''"Convinced it is right, I am not," Yoda said severely. "Working behind the scenes we should be, to uncover Lord Sidious! To move against Palpatine while the Sith still exist—this may be part of the Sith plan itself, to turn the Senate and the public against the Jedi! So that we are not only disbanded, but outlawed." Mace was half out of his pod. "To wait gives the Sith the advantage-""Have the advantage already, they do!" Yoda jabbed at him with his gimer stick. "Increase their advantage we will, if in haste we act!" "Masters, Masters, please," Obi-Wan said. He looked from one to the other and inclined his head respectfully. "Perhaps there is a middle way."
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