PT Did Mace Windu effectively destroy the Jedi?

In ROTS novelization Obi-Wan "let's go of his obligation to the Jedi" during his duel with Anakin. And I think Yoda let go just based on how reluctant he is to train Luke, which pretty much means accepting the Sith have won.

 

No. Anakin destroyed the jedi by cutting Mace's hand and letting Sidious kill him. Although, if Mace had just stabbed Sidious instead of swinging and giving Anakin the chance to chop off his hand.

 

A decision hadn't be reached yet. At the time of that discussion in the war room, it was just a discussion that had yet to be voted upon by the Council. They might have held a special session once the battles on Cato Neimoidia, Mygetto, Kashyyyk and Utapau were concluded. Enough to have a majority vote. Mace says to Anakin that he was going to report to Palpatine in person and observe his reaction and actions. It is only with the knowledge that he was a Sith Lord, that Mace chooses to forego any contact with the rest of the Council and take those who are with him to handle things.

I didn't and neither did the Jedi. They knew that there would be turmoil, no matter what they did. But inaction was out of the question.

It wasn't about their attachment to the Jedi Order, if there was one. It was about right and wrong within the universe. The Jedi swore an oath long ago to make sure that the tyranny and oppression of the Sith never took a hold again. When Mace says that there is a plot to destroy the Jedi, it isn't about attachment. It is borne from the fact that so long as the Jedi live, the Sith can never truly rule the galaxy. Palpatine even says that to Anakin, when he tells him to lead the 501st on the Temple to eliminate the Jedi inside. It is why Obi-wan tells Luke that he and Leia were hidden from Vader, because they would be a threat to the both of them. It is why Palpatine tells Vader to kill Luke before he could kill them. It is why when Luke tells Palpatine to shove it, Palpatine decides to let loose with the lightning.

And yes, they did know how to let go of attachments. Yoda says that you have to train yourself to let go of your fears. It is about self discipline. Anakin couldn't do it because he was told by Palpatine that his emotions made him stronger and that the Jedi were lying to him. He couldn't get over his guilt and refused to even try. Luke was able to do it because he finally understood what drove his father to become evil and he purged himself of his fear, his anger and his hatred.

 

Forget it. The fans want to continue putting the Jedi - especially Obi-Wan and Yoda - on a pedestal. It's a bit pathetic . . . like Harry Potter being incapable of accepting the idea of Dumbledore as flawed.

It's a pity that he never did.

This sounds like some of Obi-Wan's propagandist words about the Jedi in A NEW HOPE.

 

I didn't say there weren't flawless. But the decision was the right one on their part. The flawed person here is Anakin who chooses to betray Mace and the Jedi, in favor of his own insecurities. Anakin couldn't accept that is wife was going to die and choose to side with the enemy, in favor of the people that he lived and fought beside for a dozen years. Not to mention his own wife. All out of selfish greed.

Protecting the Republic is not about attachment, nor fear. Otherwise, the Alliance would be no better.

How is it propagandist? For a thousand generations, the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic. For a thousand years, the Republic had no standing army. Conflicts were small enough that ten thousand Jedi could handle things. One Jedi was equal to a hundred warriors. For as long as the Jedi existed, they battled against the Sith. The Sith had ruled the Republic once and spread tyranny and oppression. It took the Jedi and what was left of the Republic's forces a few hundred years just to take back what the Sith had seized.

 

If you look at the way Gene Roddenberry idealized humanity in Star Trek, Obi-Wan did the same about the Jedi Order in ANH.

 

I'm not quite sure I follow. In Trek, there was evidence that Earth had a lot of problems. From the Eugenics War to World War III to the Atomic Horror. This was talked about during Roddenberry's tenure as head writer. It was only after all that, that humanity bounced back and the Federation was born. Kirk, Spock and McCoy have differing opinions on humanity with the idea that there was a middle ground between logic and emotion.

 

Yeah when you see Obi-Wan he looks back and talks about the Jedi like they were perfect, in the PT we come the to grim reality that they are not.

 

In the ANH novel, he says of the Jedi Order:

"In many ways they were too good, too trusting for their own health. They put too much trust in the stability of the Republic, failing to realize that while the body might be sound, the head was growing diseased and feeble, leaving it open to manipulation by such as the Emperor."

 

Actually, the OT already showed it, when Luke knew the truth of Vader and Obi Wan still pushes him to kill his own father.

 

I blame Qui-gon jinn, For taking in anakin and putting the responsibility on young obi wan...dun dun dun

 

That is your interpretation of the scene. That doesn't mean that they were or weren't perfect. All Obi-wan did was tell Luke the basics of what the Jedi did. That's no different from talking about the US military without discussing the warts and all. As I pointed out in Trek, the show pointed out that humans weren't perfect and anytime the Enterprise came across a perfect society, Kirk wound up tearing it down by showing the truth in everything. This carried on to the films and subsequent series.

 

Obi Wan pretty much was trying to let Luke join the Jedi at that time so he didn't mention Jedi's flaws. Just like he didn't tell Luke the truth about his father.

I also doubt does he still think those were flaws, since he didn't change much in OT.

 

He talked about them as if they were perfect. Like they didn't screw up by training Anakin but not trusting him or respecting him. And no, they weren't perfect....if they were they would still be around by ANH.

 

I don't think they were overconfident, entirely. They were expecting a powerful Sith Lord, but they didn't expect Sidious to have a Saber. It was kind of overplayed how easily 3 of the 4 were killed, in my opinion,

 

They didn't form a good team, either.

 

You guys are making a big deal out of nothing. They were a good team. And Mace made sure he had three Jedi to back him up. Sidious simply proved to be a lot better than they had expected. And I don't see how they could have known he was that good. Or are many are now going to complain that Mace and the other three should have known how skilled Palpatine was?

Before, during or after the time of the TREK franchise (ENT to VOY)?

Oh please! The Jedi were never perfect and they never will be. Demanding perfection from fictional heroes is nothing more than a wet dream for a lot of fans. Or a lack of appreciation for ambiguous characters.

 

Naw, the Jedi with the most responsibility for that was QuiGon when he took Anakin from his mother.

 

It still amazes me to this day how GL gave that scene the OK.

 

Ah, but Obi-wan tells Luke that his Apprentice had became an agent of evil and betrayed the Jedi Order by helping the Empire to eliminate them. Luke knows that the Jedi weren't perfect since one of their own had done that. He doesn't know everything yet, but he knows that happened. He didn't tell him the absolute truth at the time, but he didn't exactly lie either.

All of it. In TOS, it was well established that Earth had a flawed history before the Federation came along. The Eugenics War was the result of human cloning experiments getting out of hand, trying to create perfect human being and having it backfire as they attempted to conquer the world. This was established in "Space Seed". World War III was established in more that one episode of TOS as an event that had happened and had been pretty devastating. Spock spoke of the Atomic Horror that followed WWIII and how society had degenerated pretty badly. These were referenced again in TNG by Data and Q, on more than on occasion. In fact, Q recreated the judicial system in the late 21st century, where there were no lawyers and the rule of law was guilty until proven innocent. This was in "Encounter At Far Point" and "All Good Things...", the first and last episodes. The Bell riots of the early 21st century were show in the third season of DS9. They were the result of a poorly decision to quarantine the poor, the sick and the handicapped in fenced off ghettos and the uprising that occurred. Now this last one was after Roddenberry's death, but it fits in with mankind's screwed up evolution. The Marquis were formed from Federation citizens, some of which were Starfleet officers, who grew tired of Federation policies and regulations and struck out on their own. In the fourth film, the whole story is based on mankind's past sins in hunting Humpback whales into extinction resulted in the future Earth, being nearly destroyed because of an aliens species that had wanted to know what happened to the song of the Humpback. Spock even condemns the actions as illogical, when he and Kirk first meet Gillian. Then there was Admiral Cartwright, Major West and Lieutenant Valeris, all Starfleet officers who took part in the assassination of Chancellor Gorkon and the attempt on Azetbur, just to keep the conflict between the Federation and the Klingon Empire going, by framing each other. Two humans, one Vulcan.

Roddenberry, Berman, Behr and all the various writers showed that the Federation and humans were far from perfect. Roddenberry did have an idealized concept of what mankind could achieve, the same as Lucas. But they also showed the flaws and failures.

Why? It was essentially taken from his own ideas back in 81. He said to Kasdan and Marquand that Palpatine was far stronger than any Jedi Knight. Yoda would be the only one to hold his ground, but would fail. The only change between 81 and 03, was the inclusion of Mace Windu.

 

Down the rabbit trail. How did we get from Windu to Star Trek?

 

darth-sinister I never said he lied...I said he tried to make them look perfect in ANH. He places the blame on Vader betraying the Jedi. He doesn't say "the Jedi were not watchful enough" "Or we did not instruct Vader well enough" or "We never should have trained Vader".

 

He said: "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil", which indicates that Obi-Wan failed as a teacher.





- I have failed you, Anakin.
- Don't fail me again... Admiral.
/LM

 

Exactly. That doesn't make what Obi-wan said about perfection. He tells Luke that the Jedi existed for a long time and then his Apprentice had gone rogue and helped betrayed Luke's father and the Jedi as a whole. Luke knows that Obi-wan wasn't a perfect teacher because of that. And when he confronts Vader, Vader keeps talking about Obi-wan's failures. Even after knowing the truth about his father.

 

This is ridiculous. I'm not sure how anyone thought Obi-Wan was claiming the Jedi were perfect. Are you guys high?