PT Did Mace Windu effectively destroy the Jedi?

Let me just check my post again and see if I said those things... Umm, nope. Not one of those words was uttered.
Have you ever been accused of reading too much into things?

As far as I'm concerned, a mentor who fails to adapt to the needs of the student and help him/her become what he/she is supposed to become has not done a very good job.

Obviously not. That was Sid's job.

No, but they should've tried to ensure that he dealt with it properly. As it was, Obi-Wan had suspicions about what was going on with Anakin, but he never got down to actually investigating it. Anakin likely shut him out if he tried, yes, but it was Obi-Wan's responsibility as a Jedi Master to break the barriers and get through to his apprentice. If unable to do so by himself, he should've turned to the Council for help. This, as far as we know, never happened. Instead, everyone just made sure to give the elephant in the room a wide berth.

Actually, in this case it does, since that's what he did.

He was too greedy to do that. He'd gotten the life he wanted and was simply unwilling to let it go. In other words, he'd grown attached to it.

Just as the Jedi had grown attached to the Republic.





- I'm never going back to this planet again.
- I don't want things to change.
/LM

 

He did adapt. That's why Obi-wan let Anakin's relationship with Padme go on as it had, once he realized that they were together. He didn't turn them in to the Council like he should have, because he believed that she was good for him. The problem was that it as a mistake and one that had dire consequences.

A good parent doesn't "soothe their child's ego". They do their best to shape that ego so that it doesn't become the size of Texas.

That's why Obi-wan told Padme that he knew about them and asked her to do everything she could to help him.

The Jedi's methods weren't the problem. His inability to accept the limitations of the Force and nature is what did him in.

Anakin wasn't misunderstood at all. His issues weren't that petty. It was simple, he turned on them because he wanted his wife. It wasn't about the Jedi Order. A few months before his turn, he said that he shared Ahsoka's sentiment about staying with the Jedi Order. He was already placing his own needs ahead of the other Jedi.

That's not an attachment. That's the Jedi's mandate to protect democracy and fight for it.

 

Wait, wasn't it actually Luke that helped Anakin become what he was supposed to become?

I would not say the Jedi deserved to be killed (and I don't think that is what LM is saying). I would say that they failed in helping the chosen one achieve what he was meant to. At the end of the PT we have both Yoda and Obi saying that they failed. They did what they thought was right at that time, but obviously it wasn't right.

 

Mace: Yes they deserved to die! And I hope they burn in hell!



Sorry couldn't resist.

 

Its all Anakin's responsibility. He makes the choices in the end. The question is if he could have had a better foundation to make that choice. Its not their fault they didn't know a better way to manage his upbringing/training (did the best they could), but that doesn't mean they did everything right.

This is supported by the films. You may not think the blame is justified, but Obi takes responsibility for it 2 times (also in ROTJ). Its also seen in the way they decide to proceed with Luke and Leia - they don't follow the old jedi protocol and take them from their parent's before establishing a bond. This suggests they recognized a flaw in their old ways. Yoda and Obi reconsidered how to train a jedi and changed it because what they did before didn't work. Unfortunately, they only saw that in hindsight.

Yoda and Mace even talk about how their ability to use the force is diminished so we really shouldn't have any reason to think they know what they are doing.

 

Well I think that becomes a discussion of degrees of mistakes. I prefer to look at it in terms of the first mistake (from my pov) and everything after that is simply compounded by the first one spinning out of control so it become impossible to assign actual blame. However, I believe QJ would have eventually corrected his mistake if he had not been killed by a sith.

 

The words "blame" and "deserve" get thrown around here way too much for this discussion to work, IMO. I did mention blame two posts ago, but that's not really what I'm talking about here. I'm being entirely pragmatic.

anakinfansince1983 and darth-sinister
Obi-Wan could not adapt to Anakin's needs because he didn't fully understand Anakin. Before you misinterpret that, let me say that I'm not siding with Anakin, or anyone else for that matter. Anakin thought that he needed the kind of support that Palpatine gave him, when in reality, he needed someone who could get through to him and nudge him in the right direction. Someone who understood how Anakin functioned and could make him understand by talking on the same wavelength.
Someone like Qui-Gon, perhaps.

Obi-Wan did everything to the best of his ability, but he and Anakin just weren't compatible as master and apprentice, no matter how much they loved eachother.
By revealing his knowledge to Padmé in the eleventh hour, Obi-Wan achieved very little. He'd made an honest mistake by leaving Anakin and Padmé alone and by ROTS, it was simply too late to rectify that.

When I say that everything that affected Anakin led to him committing murder, I'm applying simple causality: Everything that happens has a cause and an effect. I'm not blaming anyone or saying that someone deserved anything. All I'm saying is that what happened happened because circumstances made it so. If one such circumstance is Anakin being an ingrate, then so be it, but that's not the only factor that comes into play.
If you still take that as "The Jedi deserved what they got because Anakin can't be held responsible for his actions", then consider this: If causality says that Anakin isn't responsible for his actions, then the Jedi aren't responsible for their actions, either. Nor is anyone else, Palpatine included. Blame doesn't enter the equation, because there's no right or wrong. Things just happen because of other things happening before them.





- Please don't look at me like that.
- I can arrange that!
/LM

 

L_M, I think your post above does a far better job of expressing what your prior posts didn't make clear to many of us. There's very few, if any, who would disagree that everyone made mistakes, but most of the mistakes are visible in hindsight, alas.

Phrases such as they could have been more compassionate and understanding do tend to come across as "blame the Jedi," especially if the context does not make it clear that you're assigning contributory (responsibility?), rather than sole (responsibility). I'm using responsibility to avoid the more inflammatory blame that many hear, and perhaps even that is not quite "neutral" enough.

I'd like to ask, in the context of the last few posts, how you would have wished the Jedi to behave/speak in a manner that was "more compassionate and understanding," if you don't mind. I'm reasonably certain that the scene in the Council chambers (TPM) will be brought up, but one example does not a pattern make.

Also, if you're willing to indulge me, would you respond differently if Palps hadn't been blowing smoke up Anakin's rear, or if we the viewers were totally oblivious to such?

Of course, you don't have to indulge me.

 

I have no problems with Anakin disregarding Jedi teachings. If those teachings did not help the development of his true self, he had every right to disregard them. My problem with Anakin is that he wrapped his viewpoint or mind set around those of others . . . even if he was strong willed enough to develop his own viewpoint. He failed himself. I'm not going to make excuses for the Jedi. Frankly, I thought they mishandled him by trying to transform him into some ideal Jedi Knight. Especially Obi-Wan. But Anakin had a personality strong enough to overcome their mishandling and develop into his true self . . . without wrapping his world around others. On that count, he failed.

 

It's OK, I'd love to (even though I wasn't the one who brought up "more compassionate and understanding")

Honestly, I don't know if there's much that Obi-Wan or the Council could've done differently, considering their personalities. They'd have to change a lot about themselves to click with Anakin.
They didn't lack compassion, though, even if they didn't fully understand Anakin's inner turmoil since none of them had encountered a similar situation - as far as we know. That's the thing: To be understanding of something is to understand it. In order to understand it, one must know what it's like - and that takes experience.

I don't know what made Qui-Gon the maverick that he was, but I do believe that with him as a mentor, Anakin would've felt more at home with his life as a Jedi. I imagine that Qui-Gon's tendency to bend the rules would've been right up his alley. It might even have forced Anakin to question his Master's ways sometimes (much like Obi-Wan did), as opposed to having the behavior come from himself alone and therefore rarely reflecting on it. This, coupled with Qui-Gon's fatherly air, would've kept Anakin by his side, because he would've felt more safe confiding in him.
That's not to say that he didn't confide in Obi-Wan, but we all know that his darkest secrets were saved for Palpatine and Padmé. They weren't part of the Jedi Order and wouldn't rat him out to the Council (not that Obi-Wan necessarily would, but apparently, Anakin didn't trust him enough to tell him everything). Qui-Gon would have had a responsibility to report things to the Council just as much as Obi-Wan did, but with his aforementioned tendency to bend the rules, I imagine that he would've let Anakin understand that not all secrets were for the Council's ears, that some secrets would be best kept between the two of them so that Qui-Gon could help Anakin deal with them in peace. After all, he is Anakin's mentor, not the Council.
This sounds like something Palpatine could say, but I really believe that Qui-Gon would never betray the Jedi. He was a good, compassionate man who believed in the Jedi code but sometimes went about things his own way because he had complete faith in his instincts. A model Jedi, if you ask me. His death dealt a serious blow to Anakin's future as a good person. I don't think Palpatine ever understood how lucky he was that Qui-Gon died when he did.

Regarding Palpatine's influence, I'd say that if it hadn't been for him, Anakin might not have grown to resent the Jedi at all, since his main influences would've been Padmé and Obi-Wan.
Of course, Anakin would still have had his dreams and the death of his mother to deal with. Who knows? I think that his descent into darkness wouldn't have happened as easily as it did, though (if it had happened at all).
If, on the other hand, Palpatine had done what he did without us knowing about it, I might have viewed Anakin as more paranoid and delusional. In the end, though, it wouldn't have made much difference to my assessment of the situation. I still would've applied causality to it, since that's what I believe in.





- It's not my fault!
- Liar!
/LM

 

Mace Windu never trusted Anakin, He could sense something was wrong. It was not is fault but Anakin himself!

 

There was no true self here with Anakin. The only rule he disregarded was having attachments. He was true to himself in every way with that aside.

We all do that in some way. At some point, we share many of the same points of view as our parents. We may differ in other areas, but their influence over us is what shapes us. And no one is every truly unique because others share similar points of view. That's why there are so many like minded individuals.

They weren't making him idealized. They just wanted him to be a part of the Order and to follow their teachings.

Not true. Mace did trust Anakin as evidenced in AOTC when he and the other Council members allowed him to go off on his own and he still believed that Anakin could be the Chosen One. It isn't until ROTS that he starts to lose trust in him and that's a result of his outburst regarding his appointment to the Council as a Knight and not a Master. You can see it in his face then.

 

That's it - and we're all a bit to a lot guilty of picking one scene that struck us deeply and forming a judgment that "that is the way it is." Mace was gruff to Anakin once - well, then, he "obviously" never trusted or liked Anakin. Obi-Wan's "my young padawan" "proves" that Obi-Wan condescended to Anakin and perhaps didn't like him. Before I knew if I liked Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan (I was a Luke fan at the time of TPM), Qui-Gon's "callousness" towards Obi-Wan struck me hard and it's colored my view of him a bit (thanks to those who helped widen my horizons and see how it could be interpreted in a different light).

That's personally why I like it when posters just don't throw out "pronouncements" but explain the "why" behind their thoughts and invite a dialogue.

 

Mind elaborating? I'm not familiar with Qui-Gon being callous to Obi-Wan.

 

Not quite right, Anakinfan. Chewbacca89: I was referencing TPM when Qui-Gon stepped forward, placed his hands on Anakin's shoulder and pronounced he'd take the boy as his padawan learner.

I would use the word "callous" in the sense that that is how I interpreted his actions towards Obi-Wan. Insensitive is more the term I'd use now, but at the time, as I said - unfamiliar with both characters and having no predilection towards either - I was shocked at Qui-Gon's near "betrayal." That was my very real, emotional, reaction and it's colored my view of Qui-Gon ever since, though I have softened over the years as alternative viewpoints on that scene have been shared.

On the other hand, Obi-Wan's "pathetic lifeforms" comment and the reaction of many have always had me scratching my head, because *I* clearly saw (and other's didn't, or didn't care) the slight grin indicative of an old joke between the two, and indeed, unlike many claim, it was AFTER that question that Qui-Gon enlightened him that he was referencing "the boy."

And no one seems to care, but I've always been a bit off-put by Obi-Wan's shutting Jar Jar in with the droids. That has always struck me as something worthy of a great board debate and yet - it seems no one else is bothered by that.

 

I wouldn't call Qui-gon's act in the Council chambers to be an act of "betrayal". The fact is that Obi-wan was mostly ready to become a Knight and had indeed learned everything he could from him. And Obi-wan wasn't angry at him for saying that. The only tension between them was Obi-wan's "I told you so" to Qui-gon after the meeting. But that was more of wanting the best for his Master and less about being condescending. Likewise, Qui-gon's response was a bit harsh but the result of his frustration with the Council and himself. When Obi-wan calls Anakin, "My young Padawan", that is no different from saying, "My young boy" or some variation of it. Parents and teachers have to make sure that their charges do not grow accustomed to disobedience, otherwise it will affect them for years to come.

 

ah, but we're talking audience reaction (and by the way, script direction was that Obi-Wan was supposed to be angry at Qui-Gon during that scene). You see, I thought that the "you still have much to learn" (balcony scene) so closely followed by "he has little more to learn from me" was, in fact, Qui-Gon dismissing Obi-Wan for the shiny new padawan whom he set so much store by. Agree, I do, that Qui-Gon was largely fueled by the Council not immediately jumping to HIS conclusion (right or wrong is not the point).

I've always thought Qui-Gon had this subconscious part of him that thought that anyone who didn't see things his way wasn't nearly as attuned to the Force as he. (A heck of a lot of posters would say that this is true, though I would not).)

The reality, all had their own way of connecting to the Force and no one way was better, and that, in fact, all aspects were (should be) complimentary, not at odds.

 

Yes, but parents and teachers also have to make sure they don't overdo it the discipline department. It's a two-edge sword. I noticed that Qui-Gon was very good in both being a disciplinarian and a nurturer with Obi-Wan. The latter was not always that successful in maintaining such a balance with Anakin. He became better at it with Luke.

 

He says that because the Council won't train Anakin and thus he could do it himself, but in reminding him of the Code, he had to make a choice. And while Obi-wan did have more to learn, he was right in that there wasn't much else to teach him. That's why they were able to make up on Naboo.

Well, Qui-gon was partially right since Lucas had decided that he should be more like Obi-wan was in the OT. And noted that his decision was both right and wrong.

Except there's a world of difference when Anakin had someone undoing all of Obi-wan's hard work, thus resulting in Anakin's disruptive behavior. Luke was free from that influence and while there was Owen, the two father figures in Luke's life were mostly on the same page with how he should turn out. Obi-wan had grown to dislike Palpatine in AOTC, because he was having too much of an influence on Anakin which was part of the reason for their arguments about politics. That's like your parents where one is more lenient than the other. It sends mixed messages.