PT Did Mace Windu effectively destroy the Jedi?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Graves101, May 6, 2013.

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  1. TX-20 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2013
    star 4
    Anakin effectively destroyed the Jedi when he decided that Sidious's lie was more comforting than Windu's truth.
  2. Darth_Xeres Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2010
    star 2
    Mace should IMO have brought more Jedi to confront Sidious. Two additional Masters at least, Shaak Ti and Cin Drallig, were available, and there were almost certainly more Masters at the Jedi Temple. Also, if the RotS video game is considered canon, Serra Keto - Cin Drallig's best student and a highly skilled practitioner of Jar'Kai - could have been useful in the fight. Yes, Mace eventually defeated Sidious... but by then he was all alone against the still-dangerous Sidious and the wavering Anakin. If one, or two, or even more Jedi had still been alive after Sidious was defeated, he/she/they could have held off Anakin at least long enough for Mace to finish Sidious off.

    But there is an even greater mistake that Mace made - raising his lightsaber for a showy, dramatic last blow to kill Sidious, thus giving Anakin enough time to quickly ignite his own lightsaber and chop off Mace's hand. Mace should instead have made a quick, precise thrust into Sidious's throat. Then you've got a dead Dark Lord of the Sith, and even if Anakin goes berserk and kills Mace, the Empire never rises.
    Last edited by Darth_Xeres, Aug 9, 2013
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  3. PMT99 Force Ghost

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    Nov 23, 2000
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    All bets were off for Yoda. PalpSidious had already order Vadakin and his clone troops to kill the entire Jedi Order and informing the senate at this point would be a big waist of time. When Mace went after PalpSidious, the Jedi Order was not in danger yet and Mace did knock the Sith master to the ground. Mace didn't expect that anything could go wrong until the moment Vadakin chopped off his hand which marked the beginning of doomsday. Neither Mace nor Yoda should be criticize for trying to kill PalpSidious because who has time to think when so many lives are at stake and it's not their fault that Anakin betrays them and everyone else.
  4. darthbarracuda Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 4, 2012
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    The Jedi would have destroyed themselves eventually if Sidious wasn't around.
  5. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    The reason for the Jedi's demise ran much deeper than Mace or any other one individual IMHO. You could highlight certain actions from any number of individuals within the order which brought them down, but I think it was a general complacency, dogmatism and arrogance, combined with someone around willing and able to capitalise on those failings which was the real reason behind their fall.
  6. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2008
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    I agree. The Jedi and probably the Republic were on the road to ruin even before Qui-Gon and Padme first met Anakin on Tatooine. Palpatine already had his plans prepared.
    Last edited by DRush76, Aug 13, 2013
  7. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    I think it also needs to be remembered that the Jedi of this era are facing something which they have never faced before. The order may well have operated in much the same way 1,2 or 500 years earlier, but weren't faced with an adversary such as Sidious. His presence certainly highlighted any deficiencies, but it's not to say that they hadn't been there for a very long time.
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  8. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2008
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    The real problem is that the Jedi had become stagnated, rigid in their thinking and arrogant since their last encounter with the Sith years ago. I don't think it was simply a matter of Sidious being "something new".
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  9. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    I don't think it was just that, but he definitely was 'something new'.
  10. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    So what if Sidious was "something new"? That doesn't excuse the mistakes that the Jedi Council made when faced with the possibility that the Sith had returned. Nor does it excuse that the Jedi Order had allowed itself to become complacent, dogmatic and arrogant over the years. The Jedi Council members only have themselves to blame.
  11. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    That's true to an extent. But the point I'm making is that we don't really KNOW the extent to which the Jedi had become those things only in recent times. It may be that had Sidious appeared two, three, five hundred years earlier that he may have been able to exploit certain elements in the culture of the Jedi Order. The point is that there was not such a threat present during those times, so it was never put to the test.

    And I wouldn't say they ONLY had themselves to blame...

    [IMG]
    Last edited by DarthDuckie, Aug 22, 2013
  12. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
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    The Jedi are to blame for their mistakes. The threat of the Sith had always existed during those years of peace. They were simply unaware of this. And when faced with the actual threat of the Sith, the Jedi proceeded to make mistake after mistake in order to blind themselves from the rise of the Sith . . . or to identify and destroy the Sith.

    Are they solely responsible for the destruction of their Order? No. Palpatine, Dooku, the Galactic Senate and Anakin all contributed to their downfall. But the Order is not blameless.
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  13. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    Agreed. They weren't blameless at all. No argument there.

    Someone with superior extra-film knowledge than I may need to confirm this, but wasn't it the case that the Sith were secretly building their strength for centuries before they revealed themselves and made a bid for power? That being the case, although the Jedi were at peril without realising it, they weren't really put to the test of facing that peril until Sidious began putting his master plan into action.
  14. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

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    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    Technically they were planning this for.almost 1000 years...
  15. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

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    Mar 21, 2007
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    When Qui-Gon said that he believed that his attacker on Tatooine was a Sith Lord. Master Mundi's first to say anything (in the movie) and says that it's impossible. Mace appears to be hesitant to say "yay" or "nay" and Yoda just says that the Dark Side is hard to see. Then Mace says that they will pull all the stops that the Jedi Order has to learn who and what attacked Qui-Gon on Tatooine. After Naboo Mace and Yoda both agree that the mysterious warrior was a Sith but they are at a loss as to whether the attacker was the Master or the Apprentice.

    It seems to me that the Jedi Council might have reversed their decision on Anakin partly on the fact that the Sith were back, had been involved with the Naboo Crisis and that said Sith would be looking for an apprentice and Anakin would be the prefect replacement.
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  16. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

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    Sep 4, 2012
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    Agreed. How coincidental could it have been that the Chosen One appears AND the Sith turn out to not to be extinct.
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  17. darthbarracuda Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 4, 2012
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    Agreed. The Order was unknowingly setting up all the explosives for their destruction. All that was needed for their downfall was the catalyst; the spark that ignites the fuse. That came in the form of Palpatine's manipulation and the eventual fall of Anakin.
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  18. Komodo9Joe Jedi Master

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    Aug 1, 2013
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    I don't think more Jedi would have helped; their own numbers would have decreased their mobility and made it difficult for them to not hit each other and focus on just Sidious (There has to be room to strike somebody y'know). It's actually not so reasonable to expect there would be any more Jedi Masters at the temple than we are told because of the fact that they are probably dispatched on a planet, fighting the war. Even the majority of Council members are not on Coruscant by the time they plan on arresting the Chancellor. Furthermore, I believe Mace Windu is the only Jedi who can hold his ground against Sidious and any other Jedi on Coruscant would have been quickly overwhelmed; I actually think this fight is a greater depiction of the 'Jedi Order's last stand' against the Sith than Yoda vs Sidious.

    Moreover, I am sure that Sidious sets up the encounter; he is fully prepared to confront whatever the Jedi might throw at him. Perhaps if he felt the Jedi are gathering to arrest him, he would call for security. There is a legal issue here, being a Sith isn't a crime :p and Palpatine has legally taken whatever power he has. The Jedi can be seen as trying a coup d'etat and be prosecuted heavily for such actions. And it's not as if you can try to explain to the courts that Palpatine is behind it all, because Palpatine has judicial control.

    Firstly why would Mace act under the assumption that Anakin would betray the Jedi? Yes, he sensed conflict within Anakin but going as far as saving the Sith Lord is probably an inconceivable thought for any Jedi. Secondly, I don't want to go too much into this because I think it's a little silly and nitpicky, but it's quite easy to dodge a thrust by moving one's head. However, bringing down an arching slash not only has more strength but covers more area.
    And if Sidious decides to roll his body to dodge the attack .... well then he falls out the window. [face_laugh]
    Last edited by Komodo9Joe, Sep 4, 2013
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  19. DARTHKANISS Force Ghost

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    Sep 8, 2004
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    How the hell would mace know that Sidious is the ultimate Sith lord of Sith lords ???????
  20. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2008
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    Considering Mace and Yoda's lack of trust in Anakin, why would his assumption be inconceivable? In fact, why do you assume that Mace believed that Anakin would betray them? He merely sensed that Anakin's emotions and thoughts were in turmoil and needed to remain the Council chambers in order to calm down. Did Matt Stover state in his novel (which I heartily dislike) that Mace believed Anakin would betray them, when confronting Palpatine?
    Last edited by DRush76, Sep 4, 2013
  21. Komodo9Joe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2013
    star 1
    ...I'm saying Mace wouldn't assume Anakin would betray the Jedi not that he would. Secondly, Mace's lack of complete faith is no reason for him to be betting on Anakin, the Chosen One who has served the Jedi for thirteen years, known for his remarkable heroism, and the man who killed Count Dooku, to betray the Order.
    And betrayal for the sake of a Sith Lord at that.

    I'm curious as to why you 'heartily dislike' Matthew Stover's Revenge of the Sith novelization. Just my opinion, but Stover's ROTS is the best book I've ever read, surpassing any work of Shakespeare's, Hemmingway's, etc. And I'm sure, even if they might not consider it their best book ever read, many would agree with me on my praise for the book being well-due.
  22. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4


    I hated Stover's writing and some of the characterization.
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  23. Komodo9Joe Jedi Master

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    Aug 1, 2013
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    Interesting. Care to elaborate? I'm always happy to hear differing opinions.
  24. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    No- but Mace, in the novel, does note that Anakin is "eaten alive by fear" which is what decides him:

    Because he is Mace Windu, he takes this blow without a change of expression.
    Because he is Mace Windu, within a second the man of sand is stone once more, pure Jedi Master, weighing coldly the risk of facing the last Dark Lord of the Sith without the chosen one—
    Against the risk of facing the last Dark Lord of the Sith with a chosen one eaten alive by fear.
    And because he is Mace Windu, the choice is no choice at all.
    "Anakin, wait in the Council Chamber until I come back."
    "Wh—what? Master—"
    "That's an order, Anakin."
    "But—but—but the Chancellor—" Anakin says desperately, clutching at the Jedi Master's hand. "What are you going to do?"
    And it is the true measure of Mace Windu that, even now, he still is telling the truth when he says, "Only as much as I have to."
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 6, 2013
  25. Darth Gartin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2013
    star 1
    I think he was absolutely in the right by trying to kill the evil Sith Lord. Mace is one of my favs. I like how he steps up and takes charge and tries to do what he thinks is the right thing to do. Regardless of the consequences. To him it wasn't a choice at all. I saw on a previous post that if mace killed Sidious and Anakin went berserk and killed mace that the empire would have never risin. The empire would not have risin but IMO there no way that Anakin beats mace in a light saber duel.
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