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PT Did Mace Windu effectively destroy the Jedi?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Graves101, May 6, 2013.

  1. Skelter

    Skelter Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Mace would have killed Sidious had it no been for Anakin, So no, its not Mace's fault. It was Dumbnakin.
     
    JediKnightOB1 likes this.
  2. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Mace may have acted a bit too rash, but destroyed the Jedi Order? He had Sidious right where he wanted, and he could have ended it all, and was going to had Anakin not intervened and lop off his hand.
     
    TKT likes this.
  3. Skelter

    Skelter Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    True, so yah. The only people responsible are Anakin, and Sidious.
     
  4. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    Perhaps someone should have given them medals, considering the state of the Jedi Order.
     
  5. Thatgermanguy

    Thatgermanguy Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2013
    That is left open, since Palpatine was not really loosing his powers and Mace was really struggling to deflect it. It depends on how long Windu would have been able to deflect it. Keep in mind that even Yoda failed at beating the emperor, and Yoda is considered to be stronger than any any other Jedi.

    As for the theory that Palpatine was wearing a mask the whole time, it is wrong and I can proof that.
    Lucas said in the audio comment of Episode 3:" ...These close-up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning deflected back, he is getting zapped and the strain of all this exertions where transforming him into the emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi."
     
  6. Jango_Fett21

    Jango_Fett21 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Yes, and no.

    Windu was meant to be the audience embodiment of who the Jedi as a whole had become. They'd become so complacent and sure of themselves and their place in the universal hierarchy of things that they couldn't recognize that the structure that had once served to set them apart from the rest of the galactic populace and define their role in things had deteriorated to the point where it had become a hindrance rather than a help and that their organization had deteriorated to the point where it had rotted away from the inside and was about to collapse under its own weight.

    However, he himself didn't directly contribute to the downfall of the Order; as others have said, it was Anakin's actions - as well as the machinations of Palpatine/Sidious both on a grand scale as well as a personal one (with regards to Anakin) that heralded the Order's collapse.
     
    MOC Yak Face likes this.
  7. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008

    I believe there were too many factors that led to the downfall of both the Jedi and the Republic for one to simply place the blame on one or two individuals. I believe the Jedi Order, the Republic and the citizens that the latter served all helped to create a situation that gave Palpatine an opportunity to assume power.
     
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  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    It was a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Mace's actions could paint the Jedi in a negative light, until they presented proof that Palpatine was the missing Sith Lord. His intent was to take control away from Palpatine and give it back to the Senate. Even if Anakin had been there from the start, he would still have done what he had done. We know this because Lucas filmed it that way originally. Anakin was going to make his choice because of his emotional attachments and his own sense of failure and greed. Even if Mace had waited, Sidious would have already counted on that and probably had a plan B set up. But he knew Mace all too well, which is why he prepared for his arrival after Anakin left.
     
  9. Skelter

    Skelter Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Oct 31, 2012
    Lucas said Mace won, we saw Palpatine on the floor, unarmed. Mace won, had it not been for Anakin, that would have been it.
     
  10. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    "Did Sidious throw the fight against Mace?"

    TFN's version of Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon!
     
  11. Skelter

    Skelter Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Oct 31, 2012
    No he didn't, that's absurd.
     
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    You think that's bad, you should have seen the Palpatine/Sidious debates.
     
  13. Loupgarou

    Loupgarou Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2010
    This has been coming up a lot recently, jeez. I do think Mace can be seen as a symbol for the militarism, over-reliance on tradition and over-confidence that led the Jedi astray, and have argued this in many other threads so i won't dwell on it here. i will say that i don't think he was the only Jedi at fault at all, or the only one with these qualities. He simply is perhaps the most outspoken Jedi in the prequels aside from Yoda, and since Yoda represents other faults entirely (constantly putting off action, staying passive when you know something's wrong simply because things are 'cloudy'), Windu becomes the target of criticism. It's interesting to note that after the rise of the Empire Yoda sees the error of his ways, but sort of shifts towards Mace's more aggressive outlook; in how he thinks Luke needs to kill Vader, and that this is the only path.
     
  14. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000

    The ROTS novelization says that Mace's swordfighting style would not have overpowered PalpSidious which will give support to the whole "PalpSidious threw the fight" theory.
     
  15. JediKnightOB1

    JediKnightOB1 Jedi Master star 5

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    Jan 26, 2003
  16. Skelter

    Skelter Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Oct 31, 2012
    Lucas said Mace won. Lucas=Movies>Novels. So Mace won, and he would have ended the whole thing right then and there had it not been for Anakin
     
  17. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    Lucas reshot this scene too many times making his final word completely unreliable. I doubt even he would know who would actually win this fight.
     
  18. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Lucas only shot it twice. Once in 2003 and again in 2004. The beginning of the fight and the duel itself changed, but the ending remained pretty much the same.

    The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness.

    --The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; Page 204


    "Okay, well this sequence always started out with Mace, uh overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his Lightsaber. It always was that Anakin cut the Lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later cause this is it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you can see that he’s now that its very clear that he’s, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

    "It made a lot more sense to have him stay loyal to the Jedi which meant later on in this scene with the fight with Mace, we re-did that scene and at first there wasn’t the part where the emperor gives up, he goes - “You got me! You got me!”. It was basically the scene without that where it gets more intense and Anakin finally breaks down and saves him, but it didn’t have the same feeling as that pause in there where you think…and it makes the emperor a lot more slimy, it's really fun. it’s a dramatic thing to deal with."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.
     
  19. sons_of_anakin_tatooine

    sons_of_anakin_tatooine Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 28, 2005

    this is the game guy who admitted he made things up as he went along.

    look i thank george for the original trilogy but the reason why they were a huge success is because he didnt direct them.

    yes hes a great writter and visonary but sometimes people may have to admit they may be bad at directing or anything else they have no real past history with.

    its like the batfleck arguement. yes apparently hes a fantastic director but acting was is still iffy . what i dont get is if your really good at one thing why not stick with it sinc ehe knows hes good at at.
     
  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    So do a lot of filmmakers.

    He directed ANH and he directed a good chunk of ROTJ. In all three OT films, they shot the film initially as scripted and then went back and re-shot the scenes, because new ideas that came along.

    Lucas has said that he wasn't the best writer and director in the world. On more than one occasion. He directed TPM because Spielberg, Howard, Coppola and his kids all encouraged him to do so. He kept directing afterwards because he didn't have the same level of stress that he had with ANH. ILM was up and running. He had THX and Skywalker Sound. He had the money and the time necessary to get the job done to his satisfaction. He had more fun on the PT than he did with the OT. As to writing, he did seek out others. Kasdan said no to working on TPM and Darabont said that the script was good. He hired Jonathan Hales with AOTC and Tom Stoppard on ROTS.


    Because Affleck isn't that bad an actor and Batman isn't "King Lear", like Damon said. Bale didn't exactly give an Oscar performance for the three films he did, nor the other actors before him. It's an action film, not something like "Argo".
     
  21. sons_of_anakin_tatooine

    sons_of_anakin_tatooine Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 28, 2005

    im not saying saying batmans king lear but the only super hero film affleck has done was daredevil. now i know people are tired of that argument ( just like i am about keaton and ledger as an excuse of saying just wait ) but that script or movie didnt do him justice and he wasnt at fault but him being a superhero now is going to be a mixed bag amongst fans and non fans really.

    ben may be great in dramas like the town or political films like argo but transitioning from things like that into the superhero genre is hard for any actor . in the end its really going to boil down to snyder because he himself varies with fans and we all know batman wont be another nolan vision but with snyder it can go either way of being amazing or it could honestly suck. me i loved the new man of steel but hardcore purists hated it so its going to be an interesting summer after that movie comes out.

    i can say the same for jj and just like superman im no trek purist but loved the 2 films he did it even got me watching the original and tng series. jj may be a hardcore fan but in the end it depends on how the final product is when that is out.
     
  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Comic book fans are the only ones up in arms about it. The general public is more open minded.

    Affleck's done action films outside of "Daredevil". There was action in "Reindeer Games", "The Town", "The Sum Of All Fears", "Pearl Harbor" and was the bomb in "Phantoms", yo.

    According to Affleck, it's the same tonality as the Nolan films, but with a take that peaked his interest and convinced him to do it, despite his age and initial reluctance.
     
  23. Skelter

    Skelter Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Oct 31, 2012
    So in other words, whatever you think supersedes what the creator of the story says? We can't trust what Lucas says because you don't like it??
     
  24. sons_of_anakin_tatooine

    sons_of_anakin_tatooine Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 28, 2005

    think of it like this. how many times did jj abrams say khan isnt in the new trek and ended up being true? just because a director says something dosent mean there not either a lying or 2 maybe trying not to spoil a reveal.

    just like lucas said 2 trilogies was his thing and yet its known he wrote another one but that still in a sense kind of makes him look like a non trust worthy person even if he did sell it because hes always stated 6 and just 6.
     
  25. KOBBRA

    KOBBRA Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2013
    Mace won the fight and he can kill Sidious! Anakins is mainly responsibble for the death of Mace! Mace try to save the order from sith lords. :)