Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Graves101, May 6, 2013.
Then what should the jedi have done?
Legally, Palpatine had done a vast number of wrong things- the problem the Jedi would have had was proving any of them.
So we mostly agree the Jedi didn't handle the situation well. Does anyone have a possible solution or alternate plan of action that they think would have done better?
Bring witnesses when arresting him- reporters - making sure the whole thing goes out live over the HoloNet. That way, he can't kill them and say "They tried to kill me first".
This is a good idea. Instead of trying to hide the whole affair, shine a spotlight on it.
They would have needed strong evidence whatever they did. One thing I don't get is when Obi-Wan looked at the security tapes he saw Vader kneeling before Palpatine in his office, which If I recall was just after the fight so surely they would have seen the fight and exactly what happened before hand. Why didn't they take it straight to the senate? The tape also showed Vader and the 501st legion at the Jedi Temple. As far as I'm concerned that would have been very strong evidence. It would have shown Palpatine killing the Jedi masters, and also the attack on the Jedi Temple which was done before the session in the senate.
I have also just read somewhere about a senate law against the Sith which I didn't actually realize there was. Which if that law was still effective would actually mean that the Jedi were within there right to try and arrest or kill him.
Really? I have to read about this law. I wasn't aware of it either.
Post number #293 in the thread Arrest of Palpatine....Legal?
Well, that's a very poor attitude to have. The Jedi were right to confront Palpatine, because he started a war to gain power and control. The people gave him power because they were deceived by a lie. A climate of fear and uncertainty caused by the man that they trusted. There was still plenty of opportunity to stop Palpatine, but Anakin's own selfishness had damned them all.
It has everything to do with it. For centuries, the Sith Order tried to take over the Republic and destroy the Jedi Order. And right now, the Sith were at it again with the Clone Wars. Count Dooku was identified as a Sith Lord and the Senate knew it, as did the Republic at large. He made no effort to hide that once the war began. And given that Palpatine is also a Sith Lord, that means that he was involved in everything. To say it doesn't matter is like saying the Holocaust didn't matter and that it's okay to elect a Neo Nazi candidate to the office of Federal Chancellor in Germany. As to proving everything, they would have had one of their own not turned traitor at the wrong time. And as to Motti, he didn't fear Vader like he did Palpatine. He was also an idiot.
Palpatine didn't do anything in the Jedi Temple. That was General Skywalker doing it. They didn't take the tapes to the Senate, because there wasn't enough evidence on that alone to turn the Senate against Palpatine. The Senate even knew about the raid from Palpatine's own mouth. They needed to take them out now, while they were separated and then deal with the Senate and their reputation later.
So because Germany voted Hitler in in the past that means now every German leader that gets voted in is an evil dictator? That makes no sense, just because one person is evil doesn't mean that every person who follows him in that position is going to be evil. That's the point I was making. Yes of course history matters the good and the bad, but it doesn't reflect the present. Like I said just because one person does a bad thing doesn't mean that everyone after him is going to do bad things. But anyway this isn't a argument I want to get into so moving on.
The point I was making with Palpatine yes he's a Sith but as far as the senate think, this guy is respected, liked and popular. He saved the republic from the Separatists. They're not going to change there minds unless there's solid evidence. The Jedi had no evidence.
You say he started the war? OK prove it?. Nobody can sit here and say 100% that Palpatine was behind it. The clone army was made by Sifo-dyas, the Separatists where led by Dooku and Grievous and given the fact that they are all dead there's no way to trace Palpatines involvement.
Of course we can all sit here and say he was behind it because we've seen all the films, but as far as actual evidence on screen there's no way to prove it 100%.
The videos would have been good evidence to use. I mean look at the video the Jedi go to arrest him, he then kills all of them with the help of Skywalker. Then he orders his new apprentice to go and kill the Jedi at the Temple as he messages clones throughout the galaxy to kill all Jedi.
No. But if the guy running for public office supports hatred for Jews, like Hitler did, that's going to affect his getting the necessary votes. A Neo Nazi would be frowned upon in 2013 Germany.
The Jedi can arrest Palpatine first and then raid his office and his apartment and find his Sith belongings. Find his spare Lightsaber, find his Sith robes and most importantly, find the transmitter that has a direct line to Count Dooku, General Grievous and Viceroy Nute Gunray.
Not really. The Senate already knows of the Jedi rebellion being foiled by the 501st. As to what was in Palpatine's office, he would have erased the tape. Hell, in the novelization he stabs the recording device, makes "shushing" motion with his hand and then leaps at the Jedi Posse.
The senate only knew because it was what Palpatine told them, am I correct? it's clear in the film that they had a tape of what happened it's how they figured out Anakin (well Yoda already knew but Obi-Wan didn't). I tend to focus on the films and leave the books alone otherwise we'll be here for the rest of our lives.
Find his "spare lightsaber"? When is he shown to have a spare lightsaber? What makes plain black robes "Sith robes"? And I highly doubt he has a transmitter to all of his underlings just lying around in his office, or has no code protecting it from the use of others. Come on man.
Can someone explain the whole, "It's treason, then," line? I never understood why he said that.
Actually I think you have your wires crossed on one detail. That footage of Vader kneeling before Palpatine is actually from inside the Jedi temple itself. The Jedi don't have footage from Palpatine's office. That's The Emperor visiting Vader after his dark deeds at the Temple. Perhaps arrogant that Sidious actually entered the Jedi temple itself, but that is where the footage that reveals Anakin=Vader was taken.
Ok I got that wrong then, I thought it was footage from inside his office. That throws that idea out the window then.
As far as evidence in Palpatine's office I agree with the supreme chancellor, I don't think he would've left any incriminating stuff just laying around. As far as the lightsabers are concerned he could have just had them up his sleeve. It's plausible that after telling Anakin he was a Sith he knew the Jedi would come after him, so for protection he got his lightsabers and hid them up his sleeves. But I don't think he's going to leave incriminating evidence all over the place just in case something went wrong
Chewbacca89 I thought the meaning behind that "It's treason then" line, was just his way of saying what they where doing was illegal and that they had no authority to arrest him.
Yea. I just never thought saying that was a logical response to, "not yet." It just doesn't make sense.
The Temple being on fire was seen by everyone. Then, the next day, the Chancellor calls for a special Senate session where he lays out his evidence for the Jedi Rebellion and the actions of the 501st, which Padme says to Bail. All the Jedi security tapes would show was Anakin and his unit attacking the Jedi traitors and Palpatine telling him to go bring peace to the Empire. Not nearly enough evidence that the Sith framed the Jedi.
When the first one goes out the window, after eating a face full of Mace's boot. It's a long way down and he wouldn't be able to summon it back to his hand, from a few hundred feet down. Also, in "The Clone Wars" season five, Palpatine uses two Lightsabers to fight Darth Maul and his brother, Savage Opress.
Since the Sith were known to wear black robes.
1. The transmitter is what you see him use to contact Commander Cody and all the rest the Clonetroopers. The same one used to contact Grievous on Utapau and the Confederacy on Mustafar.
2. An Astromech unit can crack the code, or a code slicer would be brought in to bypass the codes.
Palpatine says that he is the Senate, since he has all of this executive power now, in response to Mace saying that he is operating in the name of the Senate. Mace retorts that he not the Senate, which means that he doesn't have complete control yet. Palpatine then says that their actions are treasonous, because he did not authorize them to arrest him. Nor did they go to the Senate first. Thus he could now justify what was going to happen next.
Neither Mace nor Yoda are wrong in wanting to kill PalpSidious because they both knew that if he remains alive, the entire Jedi Order will die, the Republic will be abolished and reorganized into the Galactic Empire, and the galaxy will suffer from PalpSidious' tyrannical terror. As we see on the film, both Mace and Yoda were right but Anakin doesn't care about that and he's just using the jedi code as an excuse to stop Mace from robbing him of the only person who could help him save Padme. As for Yoda, all bets are off for him because he already sensed all his fellow Jedi being murdered across the galaxy on direct command from PalpSidious and informing the senate at this point is a big waist of time since they're all blindly agreeing with what PalpSidious is doing. Yoda had to end PalpSidious's life before he does more harm to everyone else.
Thanks. I understood the general meaning, but it always just sounded off to me. Like there was something I was missing. You cleared it up pretty well though.
Mace made all the biggest mistakes that brought down the Jedi Order. Mace had Palpatine defeated, but in trying to kill him he helped Anakin cross the tipping point to the Dark Side. When Mace was disarmed and killed Anakin probably could have been saved from the Dark Side, but there was no one there but the Emperor to help Anakin deal with his emotions ("what have I done?") If there were more Jedi there to help Anakin take Palpatine into custody Order 66 wouldn't have taken place. Anakin gave in to the temptation to kill Dooku when there was nothing more on the line than his status with Palpatine, but when Padme's life was on the line, at least in his own mind, he wanted to do the right thing. Mace couldn't recognize that, because Anakin wasn't allowed to have attachments, and that was what this was all about.
If Anakin was allowed to discuss his feelings for Padme with other Council Members, and even allowed to be openly married to her, the Order might not have had the problem they had when Anakin disarmed Mace and got him killed, believing he was doing the right thing. As the Chosen One Anakin was much different than any other Jedi Knight before or since, and his training should have been watched very closely given that the return of the Sith loomed large over the Order. They just passed him off to Obi-Wan, an inexperienced Jedi Knight much less a Master, and Obi-Wan did his best, but still failed. The Order led by Mace refused to make Anakin a Master when they gave in to their distrust of Palpatine instead of putting their trust in a hero of the Clone Wars.
There's also the encounter between Anakin and Palpatine in the Chancellor's chambers when he reveals he's a Sith Lord. Palpatine says a lot of things that must have made sense to Anakin, especially about having shades of grey in the Force. Anakin said he was tempted to kill him, but wisely he goes back to Mace instead. Mace foolishly refuses to use Anakin as a member of the team he uses to arrest Palpatine. It was clear then that Anakin could have helped Palpatine peacefully surrender. Mace ultimately gives in to the temptation to kill Palpatine, something even Anakin didn't do (something Mace should have filed away for reference in their conversation in the hangar.) Not listening to Anakin and following through with his (Mace's) original plan to hold Palpatine for trial was Mace's biggest mistake. In the end, Mace betrayed himself, I'm sure a big part of Palpatine's trust in the Dark Side that vindicated him.
Also, the difference between Mace and Yoda seemed to be that Yoda wasn't willing to give in to his feelings of sheer malice for Palpatine. Yoda also seemed to be more powerful than Palpatine but in the end had more self-control in the Force than Mace, and Yoda living to fight another day probably saved the Jedi Order in the long run.
Discussing his feelings wasn't the problem. Anakin was taught and had it reiterated that he must let go of his fears, in order to deal with the hardships of life. Anakin lived in a constant state of fear after his visions of Padme dying began. That fear and his inability to accept that death comes to everyone that he cares for, is what drove him to do this. It wouldn't have mattered if the Council knew of his marriage, or if it was allowed. Anakin's emotional distress was something that only Anakin could come to terms with, just as Luke had to do it for himself. That is in essence what the Jedi Trials were. Conquering your fear, your anger and your hate by banishing them from your mind and heart. Luke doesn't turn because he ultimately realizes that this is what drove his father into being evil and it is why he backs down from it. Vader comes to realize that there are things that are possible and there are things that are impossible. He accepts that he shouldn't have surrendered to despair long ago and that is why he saves his son. That and his love for a person who has forgiven him for his crimes.
Considering the Jedi's decision to confront Palpatine on their own and without the Senate's knowledge didn't really help in the end, did it? And even if they had succeeded in killing Palpatine, who knows how the Senate would have reacted to their actions. I realize that many would like to believe that it is simply a matter of black-and-white morality. Good destroys evil . . . end of story. But I don't agree. Especially for a story as morally ambiguous as the PT. There are always consequences to decisions that people make, whether the intentions are good or bad.
I've said this in the past and I'll say it again. I get the feeling that many of the complaints against the PT is that the Jedi are painted in a morally ambiguous manner - and I'm not simply referring to Mace Windu, as some fans would. I think it's hard for some fans to regard a group of characters that have been regarded not only as the good guys, but who are all-wise and all-powerful, and who are portrayed as being capable of making some serious mistakes.
Thanks to Palpatine's big mouth and ego.
Give me a break! Yoda failed just as much as Mace did. Both of them failed, because they allowed their emotions and attachment to the Order to get the best of them. Yoda was lucky. He didn't have to deal with a desperate Anakin, as well as Palpatine. And because of that, he survived. That is all.
It wouldn't have helped if they had gone to the Senate first, because they had no evidence until they got some, which would only occur after Palpatine was in custody and unable to prevent them from getting it.
They weren't going to kill Palpatine. You keep forgetting that. The Jedi were going to arrest him and bring him to justice in a court of law. The moment Palpatine pushed Mace into changing his mind about arresting him, the original plan went out the door. Right up until the the lightning, Mace was intending to disarm and make his arrest. He even says that as soon as he's got him backed into a corner.
MACE WINDU: "You are under arrest, my Lord."
I never said that they didn't make mistakes. But not on this one. This was the only course left open. The only one who really made a mistake was Anakin.
No, thanks to being raised by the Lars. By having an understanding of his father by being normal for twenty years.
Yoda failed not because of attachment, but because he is not the Chosen One. Only the Chosen One could do it and he was compromised.
No. Yoda failed because he allowed his emotions to get the best of him . . . which included his lack of faith in Anakin. And his emotional response to Anakin began years ago, when Qui-Gon first brought the latter before the Jedi Council. The other Council members, including Mace Windu and Ki-Adi Mundi, were also guilty of allowing their emotions to get the best of them when they first met Anakin.