PT Did Mace Windu effectively destroy the Jedi?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Graves101, May 6, 2013.

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  1. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    I don't think so. Yoda has never been over-emotional. He has always been in control. He didn't want Anakin to become a Jedi for several reason. First off it went against the Jedi Code. Second, they sensed great fear and potential danger in Anakin, due to his age and childhood.

  2. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    OK, wait- why is no one pointing out the obvious?

    1) The Jedi were out fighting the clone wars, there WASN'T ANY to bring, and it was urgent he get to Palp. In the book, the Jedi that have to go express great regret that there aren't more available to go with them and that Yoda is not there to face Palp with them.

    2) Did no one listen/pay attention to what Mace says, and the reasons he needs to kill Palp? It was a calculated decision, and the ONLY decision to end what was going on. Palp had control of EVERYTHING, the courts, the politicians, EVERYTHING, it was the only way to save the galaxy, to kill him; that WOULD have saved the galaxy from years of tyranny and ruin.
    Last edited by Lee_, Oct 31, 2013
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  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The ones at the Temple. They weren't all younglings.
  4. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I keep forgetting that most SW fans tend to put not only Obi-Wan on a pedestal, but also Yoda. I find that rather sad.
  5. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    [Obi-Wan]You don't know that.[/Obi-Wan]
    Say he kills Palpatine. Then what? Will the Republic not use all resources available to find out what happened to their beloved Supreme Chancellor? When they learn that one of the leading members of the Jedi Council murdered him, what then becomes of the Order?
    I'll tell you what happens: They'll be charged with high treason and excluded from the Republic Government. What's more, the war will carry on and drag the Republic further down into the abyss of despair. The galaxy will enter a dark age where the corrupt make all the rules and the light of the Jedi is but a fading memory.

    Palpatine saw to this. It wouldn't matter what kind of accusations the Jedi would throw his way, because he had the Senate in the palm of his hand. He was the Senate. The corrupt loathed the Jedi and would jump at any opportunity to crush them.





    - You're wrong.
    - No, I don't think so.

    /LM
    Last edited by Lars_Muul, Nov 1, 2013
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  6. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    LOL, no. The clones would have no commander to steer them the other way, the war would NOT carry on.

    And those Padawans would have been terribly effective against Palp, especially given how great the high-level, seasoned Jedi that Mace brought did against him.
    Last edited by Lee_, Nov 1, 2013
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    That was not an emotional response. That was the Jedi Code at work. For over a thousand years, the Jedi had been training the newly initiated in the Jedi Arts, by starting when they were quite young. This was to take away all emotional attachments to their families, thus allowing the Masters and Knights to help the Padawans come to understand why negative emotions were bad. To help them avoid the dark side and walk the path of the righteous. When Anakin came into the situation, they did not believe that he was the Chosen One. Much less that the Sith were back. They were going to reject him based on the Code which forbade formal training due to his age and his emotional attachment to his mother. Qui-gon could have instructed him on his own, without the Council's consent, if Obi-wan wasn't already his Padawan and had yet to prove that he was ready to move on to being a Knight. The Council changed their mind because they now had proof that the Sith were back and that Anakin was truly unique and could be the Chosen One. Yoda was only the lone hold out because he had been training Jedi for over eight hundred years and knew this wasn't a good idea. And he was right.

    The lack of trust in ROTS was born out of Anakin's behavior. He was filled with anger and contempt, and worse, he had not outgrown his arrogance. The relationship that they had once allowed with Palpatine was now coming back to bite them in the ass, as he was unable to be objective regarding his friend.

    Simple accusations would not be enough. Backing it with evidence was key. As to the war, it wasn't going to drag on forever because the Confederacy was on the run. Grievous was dead. Dooku was dead. Killing Palpatine would be the final straw and the incompetence of the leadership would bring a downfall to them. The Clone Army itself could carry on without the Jedi, as we see them do when the Jedi aren't around.
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  8. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    This. I find it interesting when people claim that the jedi didn't trust Anakin enough, and had they trusted him more, he would never have turned against them. They trusted Anakin as much as they trusted
    any young jedi. Anakin felt he deserved special treatment, because his "friend", who didn't have his best interests in mind, was telling him that he was better than everyone else. Whether or not the jedi
    council trusted him with more responsibility, Anakin was set up to fall. They were smart not to pamper him with praise and adulation.
  9. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    I agree. Anakin was reckless and arrogant. He never gave the council any reason to trust him. That was apparent whem they first met him. Obi-Wan didn't even want to train him...
  10. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    The thing is, they did trust him, more than they should have.
    he was dubbed a knight of the jedi order. If they didn't trust him at all,
    they never would have knighted him.

    Palpatine was setting Anakin up to demand that they trust him completely, as though he could do no wrong,
    and that no matter what he asked of them, he should be obliged. Palpatine was setting Anakin on a path to
    demanding blind worship from everyone. The jedi have to draw the line somewhere. Making him a master
    was one of those lines they weren't ready to cross, and rightfully so.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Nov 1, 2013
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  11. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    Anakin never told them the whole story. They didn't know he was married, they didn't know he was worried about his wife, and they didn't know the extent the Chancellor was manipulating him. When Anakin was begging to join Obi-wan's mission to Utapau, or be granted the rank of master, the Jedi Council's reaction was straight up LOL and it was well-deserved, because from their point of view Anakin was an arrogant jerk for absolutely no reason.
  12. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Yeah, laughing at my post really strengenths your case...
    Steer them the other way? What are you talking about?
    The war was not over. It would carry on for a while. Dooku and Grievous were dead, but the droid army was still active.

    Cin Drallig and Shaak Ti weren't padawans.

    Yeah. That's my point. They had none.

    Of course it wouldn't. It would carry on for a while, though, since the droid army was still active and the Separatist leaders were in hiding. The clones would probably beat the droids within a relatively short timespan, but until that happened, the war would still be on and lives would still be ruined by it.
    That's all I'm saying.

    I don't really know what your point is, so I'm just gonna say: Yep.





    - I need an analysis of this blood sample I'm sending you.
    - Look at the size of that thing!

    /LM
  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I have wondered what would have happened if Anakin had been completely honest, and why he wasn't--he was afraid he'd be expelled from the Order if the Council knew about Padme? OK. By the time of ROTS, I'm not even sure why he wanted to stay.

    The best explanation was probably that Palpatine had blown so much sunshine up his ass. He didn't need to leave the Jedi, he deserved to be married and a Master. He didn't need any sort of emotional control, his feelings made him special.

    I realize that Anakin was pretty young but still, his unwillingness or inability to recognize that that's what Palpatine was doing, is frustrating.
  14. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    It is pretty obvious what I am talking about if you know the story. Were you paying attention to your own conversation?

    If Palp was killed by Mace (which is what we were talking about...), there would have been no Order 66, therefore the clone rebellion would not have happened (the clones were just following orders, that's what they do, just like the droid army), and no march on the Jedi temple. If you actually followed the story, and didn't make up your own version (which is what I was LOLing about, so many in these "the Jedi were actually the bad guys" threads really make up their own version of the story), the Republic was kicking tail on the droid army, and nearly had the war won; Palp threw in a twister with Order 66. In any case, not only was the droid army losing, their leadership would have been effectively destroyed without Palp, they just had a few stiffs left that were also on the run. No Palp, no Dooku, no Grievous and droids being beat up means the war was effectively finished.

    The people in the Senate that were against the Jedi (which was not all if you know the story) were just corrupt, they didn't "love Palp," that's silly; they just wanted a piece of the power. There were people in the Senate for and against the Jedi (it was always a mix), and there would have been some contentious times had Palp been killed (a power vacuum that there was a struggle to fill). But it is goofy to imply that what happened with Palp living wasn't a whole lot worse. The galaxy's most evil and powerful tyrant running things is always worse. The Jedi could eventually have settled things down.
    Last edited by Lee_, Nov 2, 2013
  15. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    @Lee_
    Are you paying attention? I don't care for your condescending attitude. I draw conclusions based on the existing scenario in the actual story which, yes, I happen to know very well. Considering my history with Star Wars and these boards, that's only to be expected.
    What's silly here is that you'd rather scoff at a notion that differs from your own ideas than take it into consideration - and then expect to be taken seriously.

    If you knew the story as well as you claim to, you'd know that the Senate demanded that Palpatine stay in office after his term had expired. Such things do not happen to impopular leaders (Yes, he was popular among the corrupt because they knew that under his rule, they could keep doing what they were doing. Hence he was beloved, since they loved the corruption).
    Furthermore, you'd know that Palpatine had the Senate under control, meaning that corruption had infected the majority of it and that he was at the core of said corruption. I don't know where you got the idea that anyone thought everyone in the Senate was corrupt. Certainly not from me, since I, again, know the story very well and the story includes Senators like Padmé Amidala and Bail Organa.

    The point with the war is, however, a moot one, since it doesn't really affect my main point: The murder of Palpatine would create an extremely complicated situation that the Jedi would not be able to worm their way out of. The power of corruption is very great and Mace Windu murdering the Supreme Chancellor would look bad in anyone's eyes - especially when you consider the fact that very few people in the galaxy thought that Palpatine was evil. Some suspected him of being a corrupt politician, surely, but that's the extent of it. The Jedi Order would be finished, as far as the Republic is concerned.

    The whole point with this scene, aside from Anakin joining the Sith, is to show how far the Jedi have fallen. Mace is wrong and Anakin is right: He can't kill Palpatine like that, because it's not the way of the Jedi, the way of light, the way of democracy. No matter how much control Palpatine has over the system, he must stand trial, because the day we stop believing democracy can work is the day we lose it. Only by adamantly holding on to it can we hope to keep it.
    This is a counterpoint to the end of ROTJ, where Luke finally tosses his lightsaber aside and refuses to fight, thereby awakening his father's compassion as he is tortured by Palpatine. That's a major turning point not only for him, but for the Jedi on the whole. Compassion finally prevails.
    There's a line from the scrapped scene where Yoda has a conversation with Qui-Gon at Polis Massa that sums this up perfectly:

    "Love is the answer to darkness."





    - I've found a way to save you.
    - You already have, Luke.
    /LM
    Last edited by Lars_Muul, Nov 2, 2013
  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Yup: the full scene is in the novel:

    He spoke softly, but not to himself.
    Though no-one was with him, he was not alone.
    "My failure, this was. Failed the Jedi, I did."
    He spoke to the Force.
    And the Force answered him. Do not blame yourself, my old friend.
    As it sometimes had these past thirteen years, when the Force spoke to him, it spoke in the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn.
    "Too old I was. "Yoda said. "Too rigid. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. These Jedi, I trained to become the Jedi who had trained me, long centuries ago- but those ancient Jedi, of a different time they were. Changed, has the galaxy. Changed, the Order did not- because let it change, I did not."
    More easily said than done, my friend.
    "An infinite mystery is the Force." Yoda lifted his head and turned his gaze out into the wheel of stars. "Much to learn, there still is."
    And you will have time to learn it.
    "Infinite knowledge..." Yoda shook his head. "Infinite time, does that require."
    With my help, you can learn to join with the Force, yet retain consciousness. You can join your light to it forever, Perhaps in time, even your physical self.
    Yoda did not move. "Eternal life..."
    The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it; it comes only by the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness.
    "Become one with the Force, yet influence still to have..." Yoda mused. "A power greater than all, it is."
    It cannot be granted; it can only be taught. It is yours to learn, if you wish it.
    Slowly, Yoda nodded. "A very great Jedi Master you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. A very great Jedi Master you always were, but too blind I was to see it."
    He rose, and folded his hands before him, and inclined his head in the Jedi bow of respect.
    The bow of the student, in the presence of the Master.
    "Your apprentice, I gratefully become."
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 2, 2013
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Right, which is why they had to get him in custody first in order to get the evidence and present it before the Senate. They cannot do it while he is in his office and in control.

    That's what it comes down to. Palpatine befriended him right away as soon as he was aware of him and what he was. He was open and honest with him in a way that Obi-wan couldn't be, because they were of two different ideals. Palpatine told Anakin what he wanted to hear, versus Obi-wan who told him what he needed to hear. Anakin's betrayal at the end is out of desperation. Note, he wants to kill Palpatine for lying to him and for his role in everything that's happened. He only stops because of his selfishness, greed and fear.
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  18. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    1) The point about the war is a mute one? You at first used it too support your position, then it became mute once it was debunked. Yeah, OK.

    2) You don't understand politics well. The Senators don't love Palp OR corruption, those are both a means to get power, love is irrelevant. Without Palp, they would look for other means to be powerful.

    3) The Jedi would be in a complicated situation if they had killed Palp, yes. But not the impossible one they ended up in by NOT killing him. That is where your logic ultimately fails. By killing him, there is always a chance (and in my opinion, a pretty good one) that things will turn out better than they did. What ended up happening with leaving him alive was a worst-case scenario; it is self-evident that you are wrong.

    3) That was NOT the whole point of that scene. It was Mace who was right, you miss the point. If Mace doesn't kill him, all that happens is he re-takes control, and more Jedi die. It was his lone opportunity; Palp can't stand trial when he has control of the courts, that would make for a Kangaroo court where they let him off even if proven guilty, leading back to the same situation. Anakin only wanted him to not die so that he could save Padme, since you are quoting from the book, you would also know this if you read the book. Anakin's claim had only to do with his selfish intentions.

    4) "Love is the answer to darkness" had NOTHING to do with that scene, you are taking it out of context. If it did, then he should never have fought Palp, and Yoda shouldn't either, they should have just given him a big hug.

    5) You are condescending too, but hey, this is the internet, there is always a little bit of smack talk. You don't hear me crying about it.
  19. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4


    Again . . . you're dumping all of the blame on Mace. You're criticizing him for not only trying to arrest Palpatine, but also kill the latter. BUT NOT ONCE did you direct a similar criticism toward Yoda. YODA IS JUST AS GUILTY.

    And yeah, I will continue making these complaints, as long as fans continue their hypocritical stance of criticizing Mace and giving Yoda leeway for similar actions.
  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The difference is that once Yoda goes after Palpatine, he's already Emperor, and he has already killed the vast majority of the Jedi Order.
  21. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    No, it's a moot one ;)
    I did not. It's a related point, but not really necessary to bring up. Sorry about the confusion.
    Here's how it was not debunked:
    Splitting hairs, are we? I'm not playing that game.
    So noone would bother solving the murder/disappearance of the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic?

    Is it? I have yet to see an alternate scenario envisioned by GL, so I can't really know for sure. Neither can you. All we can do is theorize.
    By not killing him, they ended up winning after 23 years, by which time it had become quite apparent who was the real culprit. If they had killed him, who knows how much time would've passed before democracy had found its way back on track? It could've been centuries.

    From "The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith", page 205:
    There is no death; there is the Force.
    It's still important to stick to the rules of democracy. Taking the law into your own hands does not help the system; it's destructive to it.
    Anakin had selfish intentions, but the irony of this whole scenario is that the selfish guys are the ones saying the right things and the selfless guys end up being wrong. Everything is turned on its head, which brings us to a fascinating gray area.

    It has everything to do with that scene and you're absolutely right: They shouldn't have fought him. That's a lesson they learned the hard way and that Luke's actions are the fruition of.

    Actually, I'm not. We're here to discuss the movies and not eachother, though, so let's not take this too far.
    That doesn't mean that we have to tolerate it.
    Well, maybe you should. It doesn't hurt to speak up sometimes.

    "Again"? When have we discussed this before? I can't remember one single time when you and I haven't been on the same page, DRush, and that's still true. I do not blame the faults of the Jedi Order on Mace alone, but right now, I'm discussing a scene where he happens to be representing them. It has little to do with him as an individual character.

    I REALLY don't know what your point is. Are you under the impression that I somehow disagree with this?





    - My wife and I will take the girl.
    - I want to come with you to Alderaan.

    /LM
  22. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Wow, that is a big post. I think you continue to hide from the larger fact that Mace was trying to avoid the massive disaster that was the OT with all of these mini-rationalizations. What you are saying amounts to the idea that someone shouldn't have killed Hitler if they knew he would become Hitler, they should have just given him a hug. That would have done a whole lot of good. Vader should have given Palp a hug rather than throw him down the shaft, since hey, "Love is the answer." I think you got debated into a corner, and are really getting silly, especially implying they shouldn't have fought Palp, as if there was any alternative. But hey, we can always have our own opinions.
    Last edited by Lee_, Nov 3, 2013
  23. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Of course my post was long - I was responding to another long one ;)
    You're making it sound like I'm overcomplicating things, but everything I say comes down to one simple fact: You can't extinguish fire with fire.
    Speaking of love, here's another quote from The Making of ROTS, page 213:
    Ultimately, though, I agree with you: We can all have our own opinions and beliefs. I won't say that you're wrong, because from your point of view, you are right - and from my point of view, I am.
    The best choice here would probably be to agree to disagree and leave it at that.





    - But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
    - Good is a point of view, Anakin.

    /LM
    Last edited by Lars_Muul, Nov 3, 2013
  24. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5
    Enough of this philosophical debate, let's go to the security footage:

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  25. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I doubt it. Not after the attempt to arrest Palpatine. And unless I'm mistaken, didn't Mace and Yoda made the decision to have the Chancellor arrested in the first place . . . without the Senate's backing?

    Many want to believe that the Jedi's violent solution to Palpatine would immediately solve everything. But that's not surprising. We live in a society that believes brute force is always a solution to a problem. Society never wants to consider the consequences.



    Letting go of attachments is something for everyone to achieve. But this is something one has to learn over time.
    One has to learn how to gradually let go of attachments. Letting go of attachments, due to a rule from your religious order or any other organization does not solve anything. You don't learn anything.

    The problem with the Jedi is that they believed they knew about letting go of attachments, due to this rule. They understood that an individual would eventually have to let go of an attachment. But they didn't know how, aside from following a rule. And this is why they were unaware of their of their own attachment to the Order . . . until it was too late. I doubt that Obi-Wan and Yoda had ever let go of their attachments to the Order, even during their years of exile.
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