PT Did Mace Windu really defeat Palpatine?

But he had to become Sith, The plot demanded it!

 

Yep.

The same plot that demanded the creation of clones, the formation of the Empire as well as the birth of the Skywalker twins.

 

Except they did believe him. The Jedi aren't going to arrest and semi-accuse Palpatine of being a Sith Lord if they didn't believe Anakin.

No, that was just really bad choreography.

 

Then why would Mace say "If what you told me is true" as if he didn't trust what Anakin is saying to him? If Mace and his crew really believed Anakin, they would've been more prepared for PalpSidious when he attacked them.

 

I think he was just shocked. They seemed pretty confident he was a Sith Lord. If they weren't they would have tested him or something. Like told him Greivous was dead and wait for him to give up his powers.

 

This whole passage in the film doesn't stand up to close scrutiny that well from a logic and reasoning point of view.

 

Who knows? George isn't the best of writers?

They went in to the office to arrest him and were willing to use force to do it.

You don't go arrest the Chancellor of the Republic without thinking he's a bad guy.

 

Which is why, respectfully, I view the novel with much higher regard when it comes to the office scene.

 

Did General Grievous really kidnap Palpatine????

Did the Alliance spies really found out the location of the shield generator??

Everything that has transpired has been done so according to his design.

He has been faking all throughout the PT as a harmless man in the guise of Palpatine.

Every move he does is with purpose to achieve his goals that we don't see at first until it was executed. Like his setup to become Chancellor in TPM to having emergency powers in AOTC all the way to becoming Emperor in ROTS.

Same with this fake duel. It's all for Anakin. It's to finally turn his prized apprentice that turned his offer down.

This duel ONLY happened because Anakin TURNED HIM DOWN in the first place.

If Anakin joined him in the first place then the clones would be executing order 66 before Mace and his posse even reached his chambers.

Or Palpatine would have obliterated 4 Jedi masters instead of 3.

 

The fight scene was very badly choreographed, Well the start of it was anyway. I think GL wanted to show people just how quick Palps was, but it wasn't done very well.

I think it would have been a lot better if Palps would have hit them all with lightning, knocking them all back sending Mace and Kit down the corridor and the other 2 against the wall. Then Palps jumps over and kills Saesee and Agen (or what ever their names are) while they lie there still frying, while that's happening we see Mace and Kit trying to get on there feet and into position, but Palps is too quick and Kills Kit while he's trying to defend himself but also trying to give himself enough time to get in a position to attack. Then the fight with Mace should continue like we saw in the film.

This way we would have seen a) How strong Palps really was (Lightning), and b) How quick he was (Taking out 3 Jedi before they could get into position to attack).

 

AGREED.

GL made this fight scene crappy.

How can he make an awesome Darth Maul duels in TPM then just fall off with the rest of PT duels???

Those 4 Jedi was just staring at him while Palpatine picked them apart.

The choreography could've been done ALOT BETTER than that.

 

Does the novelization comment on what really caused Palpatine to become deformed? Did the lightening actually scar him, or was he finally revealing his true self?

 

It's left a little vague. But when he's talking to Anakin right afterward, it makes a point of saying that his hand is normal, even if his face isn't (and I think the movie may show his hand looking normal as well) and not too long afterward in the movie, his hands are paler and with blackened nails.

Which supports the "true self" interpretation.

 

Well if we look back in ROTJ, Luke was blasted with the most lightning in the face and it didn't change his appearance at all.

For someone to be scarred and deformed like that surely someone would seek medical attention ASAP after it happened.

BUT Palpatine didn't do such a thing, instead he went to business as usual like the Dark Lord is finally revealed.

And the Palpatine disguise is no more.

 

Havent had a chance to read all the answers in this thread, so someone may have commented on this:

Its has been a few years since I listened to the ROTS commentary, but I am pretty sure that Lucas says that Windu was beating Palpatine all the way up to the point where Anakin walks in, and that is when Palpatine started to play up that he was an old and feeble.

 

I think that everybody is going to have a different opinion about this fight. As I've said before, I think that Mace bested Palps in the fight (Although there are very good arguments about Palps just holding out until Anakin got there).

The only reason I think that Mace won was because even if Palps knew Anakin would come to his aid and had foreseen the events, it's still pretty suicidal to try and hold back and just play along when your up against the second baddest Jedi in the galaxy. Also Mace wasn't exactly the kind of guy to hold back, look at the way he disposed of Jango (I mean it was pretty brutal the way he executed the fight then just coldly beheaded him).

Another argument is that Mace went there with the intention of arresting him not killing him, so even Mace could have been holding back as well.

 

Both holding back? Sounds like The Princess Bride.

"I know something you don't know."
"What's that?"
"I am not left handed!" (switches hands)
"There's something I ought to tell you."
"What's that?"
"I'm not left handed either." (switches hands)

 

Mace Windu was the greatest swordsman, at least of the Jedi, and perhaps the greatest swordsman of the entire galaxy. In AOTC, Anakin describes him as the most powerful (combat efficiency i.e. sabre fighting) in contrast to Yoda who describes as the wisest.
I don't know if this bears much importance but Sidious would have been much more confident and relaxed in his clash with Yoda knowing that the Jedi were effectively wiped out and the galaxy in his hands; whereas in his clash with Windu, he would have been much more anxious because he may not have been sure if Anakin would succumb to the Dark Side, so this may have negatively affected his battling performance. Just a theory though.
I have pondered over whether Mace really did overcome Sidious, but I am afraid to say that I haven't yet reached a conclusion.

 

I didn't really see Sidious overwhelm Yoda to be honest. In fact, when they were having their force power exchange there, I thought just before they blew apart Sidious looked the more concerned. When they got blown apart Yoda failed to gain a hand hold and fell to a significantly disadvantageous position and that was effectively game over. Points to Sids, but I wouldn't say it was a blow out.

 

That line that Anakin said in Episode 2 always gets misinterpreted by Mace fans.

He said Obiwan is as wise as Yoda and as powerful as Mace.

Meaning even though Obiwan is as wise as Yoda, he is not as powerful as Yoda.

Yoda is the most powerful Jedi described in the movies.

Obiwan mentions that Yoda has the highest midi count until Anakin arrived.

Dooku says that he has become more powerful than any Jedi EVEN Yoda.

Palpatine tells Anakin that he foresees Anakin as being the greatest of all the Jedi EVEN more powerful than Yoda.

NOTE that neither Yoda or Anakin corrected them....saying ummmmm actually Mace Windu is the GOD of all Jedi and the most powerful.

Yoda is the standard of most powerful Jedi.

Even in novelitizations states that Yoda and Sidious are the top force users when they clashed.

So, what Anakin meant in episode 2 is that Obiwan is very wise but not on par with Yoda but is on par with Mace power wise

 

Yeah that's what I was hinting at, I didn't make it explicit though because I thought it was obvious. Yes, I was really trying to say that Obi-Wan is higher than average in wisdom and in power. And although this is probably what Anakin meant and it is what I have accepted from it, why should he not be interpreted literally in his statement? It is illogical to twist what he said.

 

I gotcha.

But to me personally, it's not even about power wise. I go by story and dialogues.

If we go by power alone, the script says

"Obi wan is as powerful as Master Windu." Anakin in Episode 2

Obiwan = Mace Windu

"To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough you are not." Yoda in Episode 3

Sidious = Yoda > Obiwan = Mace

But for this staged duel, I'm not even counting power wise because the dialogues before and after this all adds up.

Is Palpatine the luckiest man alive that when Mace overpowered him, all the words he was telling Anakin finally came true?

It's a great coincidence that him losing to Mace finally gave him a valid reason to the Senate for Order 66, for a new Empire, and to finally turn a conflicted Anakin who rejected him moments ago.

Story wise throughout the movies, Sidious has been faking in the guise of Palpatine from becoming Chancellor, to starting a war that he is the leader on both sides, all the way to his own kidnapping. All of that while living alongside the Jedi.

But yet some people have a problem that Palpatine has faked this one? Even though all the words points to it.

This duel started all the way in the opera scene. While Anakin was interested in saving Padme, he still don't want to become evil and murder all his Jedi family turning down Palpatine and reporting him to the Jedi.

Anakin shot down Palpatine words about the Jedi plot and that the Sith and Jedi are the same.

Until Palpatine finally showed him...that A Jedi was ready to kill an unarmed man like the Sith would do.

Producer, Rick McCollum even said that Palpatine's first lightning was to change Mace from arrest to kill.

"Don't let him kill me.....you must CHOOSE."

Mace was not trying to kill him, he was just defending himself against the lightning.

This whole thing is all for Anakin. To finally get him off the fence.

Once he finally turned Anakin, now he can show his true power...."Power Unlimited Power!!!!!"

"What have I done???"
Anakin Skywalker

"I saw Master Windu attempt to assassinate the Chancellor."
Anakin to Padme

" ....And the Jedi Rebellion has been foiled."
Palpatine to the Senate

"He was deceived by a lie. It appears Palpatine is behind EVERYTHING including the war."
Obiwan to Padme

"I should've known the Jedi were plotting to take over."
Vader to Obiwan

 

I wish Lucas didn't say anything on the commentary about this fight because this is one of those things that is better for the fans to debate and we can interpret the scene the way we want.

 

Mace is supposed to be the second baddest mofo in the galaxy, without this win, he has nothing. George said Mace overpowered him. So I like to roll with that.

 

Interesting read from the Revenge of the Sith Novel:

In the novelization, Mace Windu contacted Yoda once more after learning the truth of Palpatine's identity, sanctioning his upcoming decision and action with the approval of the Grand Master of the Jedi Order.
Darth Sidious's lightsaber.
The novelization stated that Darth Sidious could indeed sense the approach of the four Jedi Masters, as well as the emotional turmoil of Anakin Skywalker, who was still waiting in the Council Chamber. The novel also described Palpatine's preparations for the upcoming duel in detail, including how he recovered his Sith lightsaber and prepared an audio recording.
The Jedi cornered the Dark Lord, trying to stop his escape. Sidious sprang into action quickly. During the duel,Saesee Tiin was beheaded when Sidious tricked him and caught him off guard. Agen Kolar was then impaled through the head by Sidious's lightsaber. In the movie, Kolar dies first (effectively making him the first victim of theGreat Jedi Purge), followed by Tiin with a slash at the side, and although both die of different lightsaber markings, Tiin is not beheaded, and Kolar was slain from a chest wound. Kit Fisto and Mace Windu, who survive due to their prowess, take the Chancellor on in a final attempt to make him stand down.
Anakin Skywalker, recognizing the consequences of what he did by revealing Palpatine, rushed to the Chancellor's office. Shaak Ti stood in his way and tried to convince Anakin not to go, but Anakin rudely refused to obey the Jedi Master.
As he arrived, he witnessed the epic battle between Kit Fisto, Mace Windu, and Sidious by hovering his speeder outside Palpatine's office window. He could not yet determine who the combatants were, seeing only their lightsabers. Kit Fisto was decapitated shortly after Skywalker caught sight of the duel. When his green blade flickered out, Skywalker smashed the window to Palpatine's private office and leaped through. There, he found the dead body of Kolar and the heads of Saesee Tiin and Kit Fisto (who was also only slashed in the movie). Anakin was able to watch the epic lightsaber duel between Windu and Sidious for some time, instead of arriving just in time when the Jedi knocked down Sidious in the movie.
Duel with the Chancellor.
Mace Windu could sense the approach of Anakin through the Force before he broke the office window, so it was reasonable for Darth Sidious to have the same experience. When the fight moved to the ledge, Mace described sensing Sidious's momentary hesitation as the Sith Lord decreased his speed.
Whether it was an intentional trick on the part of Sidious or whether Windu truly out-sparred the Sith Lord is confirmed in neither the movie nor the novel. Mace confessed, however, that Vaapad could not overpower the Sith Lord, and it was his shatterpoint ability which allowed him to gain the upper hand. In the book, Mace Windu did not kick Sidious's jaw, and he sliced the Chancellor's weapon in half rather than knocking it from his grasp. It should be noted that in actuality, this would be impossible as the casing of Palpatine's lightsaber is built out of lightsaber-resistant Phrikalloy.[1]
When Mace held Sidious at blade point, he explained to the Sith Lord why Darth Sidious and his shadowy order always lose: because they were always defeated by their own fear. Sidious countered by screaming "Fool! Do you think the fear you feel is mine?" instead of "No! No!! NO!!! YOU WILL DIE!!!" and blasted the Jedi Master withForce lightning.
In the fight, Mace Windu realized that Sidious's shatterpoint was Anakin Skywalker himself. When Anakin approached Mace, who was struggling to deflect the lightning blasts, Mace sensed that Sidious did not fear Anakin at all, and that the Sith Lord would make no move to defend himself. Mace concluded that this was the shatterpoint of the Sith, and the absolute shatterpoint of the dark side itself.
Ultimately when Mace was betrayed by Anakin and blasted by Darth Sidious, his last thought as he plummeted to his death was the shocking realization that although Anakin Skywalker indeed was the shatterpoint of Darth Sidious, he forgot to look for the shatterpoint of Anakin himself: his desire to save his wife at any cost.
Though all novelizations are C-canon by default, one may wish to consider the following statement from Matthew Stover before writing anything off as an "inconsistency":

Source: The Official Matthew Woodring Stover Discussion Thread on the Jedi Council Forums (Authors and Artists board; posted by MWStover on 10/18/06 11:25am; accessed April 13, 2013)​

​

Though I did not personally watch him do it, I received from LFL a Word document of Revenge of the Sith with Mr Lucas' edits, which was distinct from the edits I'd already gotten from Sue Rostoni and Howard Roffman and the rest of the LFL crew, and this document was edited in such a detailed fashion that even individual words had been struck off and his preferred replacements inserted, as well as some passages wholly excised and some dialogue replaced with the dialogue from the screenplay. If that's not line-editing, I don't know what is.
What's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone.
Period.