PT Did Mace Windu really defeat Palpatine?

Yeah that's true. That's why I've never really read the EU or watch TCW, I've always just stuck to the films. Even though it's an interesting read and brings up some good points I still prefer the films version of events.

 

It's been stated quite a few times by the Lucas Licensing guy (can't remember his name) that in the event of a contradiction between the films and any part of the EU, the films win. So it doesn't matter if the novelisation said his lightsaber can't be cut in half - the novelisation is wrong because the film showed his lightsaber being cut in half

 

No it didn't!! He kicked him in the face, then Palpatine dropped it.

 

I'll take your word for it. I've not watched ROTS recently so I was just taking as correct the suggestion in a couple of previous posts that he did cut the lightsaber.

 

Sorry to join in so late and reference something so early, but I noticed something that you wrote that is incorrect. Yoda could have used tutaminis to absorb and/or deflect his lightning. Tutaminis is known by many names, such as force deflection and force absorption. My profile picture actually shows an example of when Yoda uses tutaminis to absorb/deflect Sidious's lightning. So Yoda could have used tutaminis to absorb/deflect Sidious's lightning while making his way back up. Despite the fact that Sidious still had his lightsaber, Sidious preferred using his lightning. Even if he did use his lightsaber, Yoda could probably disarm him. The only reason Yoda didn't reengage Sidious is because he gave up.

 

Sidious lost ON PURPOSE. He tried to turn anakin to the dark side by showing that the jedi are evil. After anakin helping in killing windu, sidious could finally make him his apprentice. Sidious was just evening up with windu and lost on purpose until anakin came. Sidious could kill windu in within 10 seconds if he wanted.

 

Barredowl555, I pretty much agree with you. Lucas states outright in the commentary in ROTS that Palpatine is faking weakness when he is blasting Mace with Force lightning. Lucas also states that Palpatine's true face is deformed and grotesque and that he has been concealing his true appearance, so he had a reason to let the lightning arc back on himself.

Since Palpatine is faking weakness, you can assume that he could've attacked Mace with more power. (In fact, in the novel, it says Palpatine stops an instant before Windu is overwhelmed, so then what would've happened to Mace if he weren't faking weakness?) When he blasts Yoda full strength, he disarms Yoda, so it makes sense to think that he could do the same to Mace. So, if Palpatine weren't faking weakness, he would have likely fried Mace to death since I don't think Mace had the ability to block Force lightning with his hands as well as Yoda can (or perhaps at all). GL makes it clear that Yoda has a higher midi count than Mace, and Yoda still gets blasted 100 feet away and is exhausted afterwards.

Some have argued that Mace legitimately wins the duel but accept that Palpatine is faking weakness while using Force lightning to defend, and I guess this is possible, but it doesn't seem likely to me. GL does say that Mace is one of few who's able to hold his own with Palpatine, but the way it goes down makes me skeptical that Palpatine lost the duel either. It just seems too coincidental that Anakin enters the room an instant after Mace disarms him. That's exactly what Palpatine wanted Anakin to see: a Jedi standing above Palpatine appearing as if he is about to commit an act of treason. That's a pretty big coincidence that Palpatine loses his saber and ends up appearing helpless just at the time that that's what he would want Anakin to see.

I also can't believe that Palpatine would've set up the confrontation in the first place if he felt there was a great threat to his life. He basically encourages Anakin to tell the Jedi he's a Sith. He surely knew which Jedi were still on Coruscant, and if he thought he couldn't handle them, he wouldn't have revealed himself to Anakin in the first place or had clone troopers to help him for backup. He knew everything the Jedi were doing. He even knew they asked Anakin to spy on him, and that request was made in secret. Since Palpatine isn't a moron, he wouldn't have set up a fight that he wasn't pretty sure he could win. Sure, it was a way to turn Anakin and to justify Order 66, but he's not dumb enough to put himself in a situation where he's likely to die to achieve those goals.

 

Think about it why would palpantine want to playfight with windu? Windu is one of the most powerful jedis in the order only yoda is his superior. Basically you guys think that Mace windu is not good enough to take on palpantine. I think mace windu defeated palpantine on his best day because he wanted to find this sith lord for a long time and after learning that palpantine is the sith lord he felt so betrayed. In fact mace and palpantine are equal in duelling abilities and palpantine is risking his life just to turn anakin to the dark side. So I think Palpatine lost the fight.

 

I talked about it with my brother and we not only fully agree that Palpatine fakes his weakness. We also think that Palpatine plays a mindtrick on Master Windu. Windu first wants to arrest him, but then, just at that convenient moment when Anakin arrives, changes his mind and wants to kill Palpatine. Moreover, uses the very same words Palpatine used earlier about Duku: "He's too dangerous to be left alive". For me it is a very strong suggestion, that they are in fact words of Palpatine himself, just planted into Windu's head and Windu's mouth.

 

I don't think that he did I think palpatine knew Anakin would come running to his defence once he was vulnerable


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Well, Palpatine has some pretty strong reasons to set up that fight. He uses that fight to show that the Jedi are traitorous to justify Order 66 and to turn Anakin to a Sith, but he needs to last long enough for Anakin to show up to turn Anakin.

So, I'm not saying he "play fought." I'm saying he fought in a way to prolong the fight. If you want to analyze his approach to the fight, I would say that Palpatine played defense. In MMA there are a number of ways that even a lesser fighter can prolong a fight by playing defense and not doing damage to the other opponent -- lay and pray, wall and stall, strike and retreat. A fencer told me you can do the same thing when fencing. It's a lot easier to protect yourself defensively if you're not going for the kill. For instance, there's that moment in the duel when Palpatine has his saber pointed about a foot away from Mace's chest. Palpatine chose not to thrust even though he was in a good position so that he wouldn't risk Mace possibly recovering quickly and so that he could prolong the fight. He also only had to prolong the fight a short amount of time. He set up this fight solely for Anakin to witness it, so he must have known or "sensed" that Anakin would quickly return. If he didn't know in some way that Anakin would return, then he wouldn't have set the wheels in motion for the fight to occur in the first place. Palpatine encourages Anakin to tell Mace he's a Sith. He wants that fight to happen because he thinks it will make the Jedi look like traitors.

I don't think that Mace won the duel, but I agree that it is possible that he did. The reason I think he lost the duel was that Palpatine loses his saber just before Anakin enters the room, leaving Palpatine helpless with a sword pointed at him as if Mace is acting traitorously against an unarmed man. That's just too coincidental for me since that's exactly what Palpatine wanted Anakin to see, and he ends up in that position only seconds before Anakin arrives. So, they way I'm describing it, Mace is very close to Palpatine in his skills with a lightsaber. Palpatine just has to play defense a little bit before Anakin arrives. But sure, Mace could've won the duel legit. It's just a big coincidence that he wins it when he does then.

There's also the stuff that happens after Palpatine loses his saber. That's where I'm pretty sure that Palpatine is faking weakness and could've probably disarmed Mace, killed Mace, or at least held him off much, much longer. First, I think this because Lucas says that Palpatine fakes weakness and fakes losing his power. I also came to the same conclusion that he's faking it because the second that Mace loses his weapon Palpatine pops back to life and blasts Mace full force with Force lightning. That shows he's not really worn out. I think he probably could've disarmed Mace too because he is able to disarm Yoda with a Force lightning blast, and Yoda has a higher Force potential than Mace, and judging Yoda by his size is a no no. The novelization also states that Palpatine stops his lightning attack an instant before it was going to overwhelm Mace. Since Palpatine only needed an instant longer and he was faking weakness, this suggests that if he hadn't faked weakness and kept going, then Mace would have been killed.

So, I actually agree that Mace and Palpatine are pretty even when dueling. I think Palpatine was just fighting defensively knowing that Anakin would show up, and once he did, he allowed Mace to get the better than him. I also admit that Mace could have even won the duel outright, but that would mean there was huge coincidence that worked out perfectly for Palpatine, so that makes me more doubtful. However, it's pretty clear to me that Palpatine is faking weakness when he's using Force lighting against Mace, partly because GL says that Palpatine was faking it.

Things for reading my epic long post! I've wondered about this myself. Palpatine says -- "I am the Senate!" -- and later on, Mace concludes the same thing even though just before their battle he felt that Palpatine didn't have control of the senate yet. Palpatine also says "I am the Senate" the same way he commands Anakin to kill Dooku. First Palpatine calmly tells Anakin to kill Dooku, and Anakin hesitates. Then Palpatine says in a very evil and commanding tone "Do it!" and Anakin goes ahead and slices off Dooku's head. Then we see the same thing with Palpatine and his "I am the Senate!" line. I don't think Palpatine is actually using mind control in the same way when Ben says, "These are not the droids you're looking for." Instead, I think it's that Anakin and Mace have mixed feelings and are right on the edge, and Palpatine is able to influence them just enough to push them right over the edge.

 

I agree there could of been some mind manipulation of mace from palpatine


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Lucas isn't the one talking at that point in the commentary. It's John Knoll, who claims that the change in Palpatine's appearance is due to his exertion. Ian McDiarmid stated that it was Palpatine's true face in an interview.

 

But don't forget that Mace could have been holding back as well, He went there with the intention of arresting him not killing him. It may have been after killing the 3 Jedi and being blasted with lightning that Mace decided it was best to just go for the kill instead. I think there's enough to suggest that both of them where holding back, Palps because it was his plan to show the Anakin that the Jedi where traitors and turn him to the dark side, and Mace because he didn't realize how powerful Palps was and had to change tactics half way through.

I guess the only way we can look at it objectively is to look at both of there plans, 1) Mace arresting Palpatine and 2) Palpatine showing the Jedi as traitors and turning Anakin, and ask ourselves which plan worked, which of course would be Palpatine's. So I guess by that logic Palpatine won the fight.

 

Yeah, you're right. I was going from what McDiarmid said GL told him, so I guess it's possible that McDiarmid was remembering wrong, though that's a pretty big error to make (which one did GL say my false face was -- uh, I can't remember. I'll just guess). I was also factoring in the earlier version of the scene in which Palpatine loses his saber, then he blasts Mace, who blocks it with his saber in the regular way without the lightning arcing back (I think that's how it went.) In that version, Palpatine's face also became grotesque. Plus, it serves Palpatine's purposes as well as evidence for the senate and to make him look helpless to Anakin. So from all that together, I concluded that Palpatine's "handsome" face is his false face.

I didn't remember Knoll saying that. I'll have to watch that again. I knew there was question about whether Palpatine allowed his true appearance to appear or the change came because of exertion or because of the lightning arcing back. I also wonder if Knoll was going from the earlier version of the scene where exertion seems to be most obvious explanation.

Yeah, that's true. What's weird is that in a lot of the duels from Star Wars one or both fighters is holding back. In TESB, Vader is holding back. He only wants to capture Luke. In ROTJ, it seems that both Vader and Luke are holding back. Again, Vader only wants to capture Luke and he is conflicted, and Luke doesn't want to kill his father, at least until he becomes enraged. In ANH, Obi-Wan just lets himself be killed. In ROTS, what Dooku thought was the plan was that they were only testing Anakin's power and that Palpatine would intervene if Dooku was in danger, but if Anakin wasn't powerful enough they'd wait to turn him later, so in that fight it at least seems that Dooku wasn't going for the kill.

 

Agreed. Yoda's ataru lightsaber style, especially weak in confined spaces, and they fought on senate pods.

 

Yes he did defeat Palpatine.

 

this is one of those instances where I think it's best the viewer decides.

If you think it makes the story better Palpatine was playing the fool the whole time and had Mace exactly where he wanted him, great!

if you think it makes for a better story to have Mace defeat Palpatine and then Palpatine using it to his advantage, again, great!

wasn't life so much better before DVD commentaries telling us all what a scene meant and how us the viewer should interpret it? kind of diminishes the value of art...and watching a movie.

 

I see what tour saying but I think palpatine manipulated him I to wanting kill him


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I always approached this as apart of Palpatine final act of turning Anakin; he even encouraged Anakin to report him to the Council. Palpatine needed to put himself in a position of weakness, to show the Jedi were plotting to take over the Republic and were not this saintly organisation. I don't think Mace would've stood a chance if Palpatine unleashed his full power.

 

He does not fake it. Think its safe to say that mace realy beats him.

 

I think there is certainly some truth in that. I mean he did manipulate Anakin (The chosen one & probably one of the most powerful Jedi of all time) into killing Dooku, So there is a chance he could have done the same with Mace, but I don't think he did. Mace did give the line "You have lost, the oppression of the Sith is over", he then gets blasted with lightning and then goes with "He's to dangerous to be kept alive". So I think it's more that Mace realizing that even when he's not armed that Palpatine was still very strong, and with his political powers and allies in the senate a dominant powerful figure. That for me is the main reason Mace went for the kill, because in that moment he realized just how powerful Palpatine really was and that they would probably not get a better chance of killing him.

 

9 years and this debate is still going on lol, anyway mace windu won the fight just because its not his destiny to destory palpantine doesn't mean he cant defeat palpantine plus it was obvious that mace windu wasn't fighting to his full potential in the start of the duel because it was suppose to be only to arrest palpantine not to kill him straight away thats why he kicked palpantine in the face to disarm him instead of woundingnhim with his lightsabers. Mace windu is one of the best swordsmen on par with yoda I dont think sidious would want to risk his life with windu who can easily kill him at anytime. Can this debate be over now mace won fair and square.

 

Where does the information about the earlier version of the scene come from?

 

When did Mace kick Palpatine in the face? Is that in the unrated director's cut?