PT Did Mace Windu really defeat Palpatine?

Well I guess that could be true as well but also maybe that's just mace' sinner thoughts Coning out due to the brain manipulation by palpatine.


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I think "The Making of Revenge of the Sith" book, but I'm not sure. Rinzler certainly talks about re-shooting the scene in that book, and some of the details are in there, but I don't know if that's where the details about Palpatine's Force mask come out. I'm virtually positive that in the first way it was shot Anakin was there when Mace and his posse arrive. (There's a photo of him there in the book, I believe.) Anakin watches the fight as a non-involved spectator, Palpatine takes Anakin's lightsaber to defend himself (which supposedly can be seen in Palpatine's hand in certain shots of ROTS), Palpatine dispatches the other 3 quickly, he loses his saber, but he stands his ground. While still standing, he shoots lightning at Mace, and each makes his argument for why Anakin should intervene on his behalf. Anakin (who was already tilting more towards Palpatine's favor in this version) then chops off Mace's hand even though Palpatine does not appear to be in immediate danger. (GL didn't think shooting it that way made Anakin sympathetic enough, and he liked the idea of Palpatine being slimey and sneaky and tricking him and that fact that Anakin being tricked made him more sympathetic.) I'm pretty sure that the lightning doesn't arc back in this version, but instead, that it appears that Palpatine becomes grotesque because he is straining to defend himself, and when Knoll says that Palpatine becomes grotesque because he's exerting himself, I don't know if he's saying that because that's how it initially appeared in the scene or because Lucas told him that that was his own interpretation. Darth_Nub knows the behind the scenes stuff as well as anybody. Maybe, he can shares what he knows if he has the time.

The reason people keep arguing about this is that it's open to interpretation. Even Lucasfilm acknowledges that it's not clear whether Palpatine threw the fight or not. They say this at 58 secs into this recent video produced by starwars.com:



Plus, there's really 2 arguments here: 1) Did Mace win the duel? 2) Could Palpatine keep defending himself with Force lighting?

GL says that Palpatine was faking weakness; plus, Palpatine bursts back to life and fries Mace the second he is disarmed showing that he was faking weakness. So, at least with question #2 it seems like the evidence is on Palpatine's side.

You asked why Palpatine would place himself at risk against a formidable opponent like Mace. Palpatine used the Jedi attack on him to justify Order 66 and to turn Anakin to the dark side, so Palpatine was willing to put himself at some amount of risk to achieve those goals. However, he wasn't willing to die to achieve those goals. That means that Palpatine, at the very least, had to feel very certain that Anakin would come and intervene on his behalf (and, of course, he was right). If he wasn't all but certain that Anakin would show up, he wouldn't have instigated the conflict in the first place, as Palpatine was the one who encouraged Anakin to tell Mace that he was a Sith in the first place.

 

The reason people keep arguing about this is that it's open to interpretation. Even Lucasfilm acknowledges that it's not clear whether Palpatine threw the fight or not. They say this at 58 secs into this recent video produced by starwars.com:



Plus, there's really 2 arguments here: 1) Did Mace win the duel? 2) Could Palpatine keep defending himself with Force lighting?

GL says that Palpatine was faking weakness; plus, Palpatine bursts back to life and fries Mace the second he is disarmed showing that he was faking weakness. So, at least with question #2 it seems like the evidence is on Palpatine's side.

You asked why Palpatine would place himself at risk against a formidable opponent like Mace. Palpatine used the Jedi attack on him to justify Order 66 and to turn Anakin to the dark side, so Palpatine was willing to put himself at some amount of risk to achieve those goals. However, he wasn't willing to die to achieve those goals. That means that Palpatine, at the very least, had to feel very certain that Anakin would come and intervene on his behalf (and, of course, he was right). If he wasn't all but certain that Anakin would show up, he wouldn't have instigated the conflict in the first place, as Palpatine was the one who encouraged Anakin to tell Mace that he was a Sith in the first place.[/quote]

Samuel L Jackson himself even said he thinks mace windu overpowered palpantine, when mace windu tapped fully using his lightsaber form vaapad thats when he started driving back palpantine to the window in the office, mace never planned from the beginning to kill palpantine that's why he kicked him in his face to disarm him, if mace was planning to kill palpantine from the beginning then he wouldn't of kicked him in his face he would of found a way to strike palpantine with his lightsaber, you can see later on in the fight palpantine's face and all them yells he makes he finds it hard to hold his own against windu's fighting style. Palpantine only got his strength back in time to kill mace because in my opinion after mace deflected back palpantine lightening, palpantine had enough time to recover just like luke for e.g. in rotj look how much force lightening he had but once anakin/vader saved him he recovered quickly, so in my opinion that's what I think.

You made some good points bro your kinda starting to turn me on palpantine's side on he won the duel

 

As smart as Palpatine is, he couldn't have "known" Anakin would betray the Jedi. Palpatine claims to foresee everything but in many stories you find that this wasn't always the case. I think Mace just beat him. Mace used shatterpoint to counter everything Palp threw at him. However he was so focused on Sidious's shatterpoint that he neer bothered to check Anakin's hence why he died. I wish Lucas gave us more to watch in this scene though. I mean there aren't many people better with a lightsaber than Mace Windu or Darth Sidious so they should have made this fight one of the best in the Star Wars saga. Instead we get 15 seconds of action + a sweet kick to Sidious's face.

 

Yoda's admission has nothing to do with prowess in combat, the novel tries to explain that Yoda has already lost because the Sith have been planning and orchestrating these events for over 1000 years. In fact the novel states: "he had lost before he was born." The Sith were destined to destroy the Jedi and the Republic, both of which has already been mired in squabbling and corruption and had allowed the dark side envelop the galaxy.

If Anakin wasn't an unstable narcissist who thought the only way to save his family was to murder all his friends and betray the people he was sworn to protect, he probably wouldn't have joined the Sith.

 

I never thought so. Sidious was simply biding his time.

 

He was faking it.

 

He kicks him in the face which makes him a little dizzy and drops his lightsaber, similar to what Maul did to Qui-Gon with his lightsaber hilt.

And also, it would be very weird if Palpatine was playing against Mace since he used very powerful force lightning which gave to Mace very hard time. If he was playing, why did he do that ? Mace could drop his lightsaber just as easy.

Book also says, Mace won that fight ;

​

 

Mace thinks he has Victory. It's pretty obvious that Palpatine still has his full power at his disposal - he's just stopped using it in order to bait Anakin into siding with him.

 

And also means Anakin thinks the same ? That means both Mace and Anakin are stupid, can't understand someone is beaten or not.

In episode II, Anakin said this ; ''as wise as Yoda and as powerful as master Windu'' and why Anakin worried about Sidious ? Is he that stupid ? I mean, he knows that Sidious is powerful yet he is worrying about him that the jedi will kill him, makes no sense to me.

Anakin is worried because, just as he said in Episode II, Mace is powerful and there is a possibility that he can take down Sidious.

 

Or, that Palpatine is very good at "faking being beaten".

The moment Mace's hand is off - Palpatine renews the Force Lightning assault.

 

Did Palpatine do that before (faking being beaten) ? Because we need a proof for this act. Since Sidious is very proud and selfish, there is no way that he would be in that position just because for a new apprentice and especially risking himself for a apprentice ? He just kills Anakin, if he doesn't like it, he is that kind of man and a sith.

Sidious lost to Mace's blade, Sidious was still capable of fire lightning but it was ineffective, after Mace lost his arm, yeah he finally defeated him. Also for the last scene, looks like to me that Sidious was taking a revenge from Mace, if he was a pawn for Sidious's game, Sidious would just throw him with a single TK burst, however Sidious yelled like ''UNLIMITED POWER'' more like to me a revenge scene for his previous defeat.

 

In the junior novelization of ROTS, Anakin's thinking as Palpatine blasts Mace out of the window "Palpatine was faking! He wasn't tired at all!"

 

I mean, another different fight which is proven that Sidious was faking. I already said that Palpatine was still capable of fire lightning, but it was ineffective against Mace's saber and Mace was deflecting right into his face thats why he gave up after somepoint.

 

Mace Windu and Plapatine were complete equals their fight would have lasted an eternity if Palpatine had not intended to lose to help turn Anakin.

 

Maybe not an eternity, but for a damned long time. It's like having two top-notch martial artists fighting each other in the ring, they're not going to tire out any time soon but eventually one of them will and the other will spot and exploit it.

 

If only Palps had his coffee that morning...

 

Consider the fact that Palpatine set up the fight. He encouraged Anakin to tell the Jedi that he's a Sith. He wants that confrontation to occur. Why does he want that confrontation to occur? Because it's his way to turn Anakin to a Sith and to justify Order 66. That's why Palpatine yells, "Unlimited Power!" It has nothing to do with the fact he's just defeated Mace. He's saying "Unlimited Power" because he's just turned Anakin, the Chosen One, the guy who's supposed to kill him, into his ally. If you have the guy who's prophesized to kill you as your ally, you're in a pretty good spot. Plus, he just got justification for Order 66. So, he also has unlimited power because almost all the Jedi are about to be dead.

Again, remember Palpatine set up this fight. Anakin said that he wanted to figure out if the Jedi really are traitorous, and Palpatine tells him that he's very wise and encourages him to tell the Jedi. Then guess what happens when Anakin shows up. Seconds earlier Palpatine has lost his saber and he looks helpless and Mace looks like he's committing an act of treason. That's a pretty big coincidence, right?

Also, remember, since Palpatine orchestrated this confrontation, he wouldn't have risked his life if he thought he would be killed. He's not above running away. He tries to flee when Yoda corners him, and yet, he still beats Yoda (barely). Palpatine knew what Jedi were still around. He knew Obi-Wan was on Utupau. He knows what all the Jedi are up to. He even knows the Jedi asked Anakin to spy on him despite that Anakin was asked to do this secretly. So, Palpatine knows what Jedi are going to show up at his office. If he didn't think he could take Mace and his posse, he would've taken off (as he did with Yoda) or he would have had re-inforcements there, or he wouldn't have told Anakin to tell Jedi to come get him in the first place because he wouldn't want to set up a confrontation that's likely to kill him.

As I say in above post, in the end, I don't know who won the saber fight, though it is a huge coincidence that Palpatine loses his weapon (out the window) just an instant before Anakin arrives, which makes him seem helpless. This suggests to me that Palpatine threw the duel, but the timing could just be a coincidence. I admit that. However, their fight doesn't end when Palpatine loses his weapon. It continues with Palpatine's force lighting, and Lucas directly states in the blu-ray and DVD commentary that Palpatine is faking weakness and faking losing power when he is using Force lightning against Mace. Furthermore, this is shown in the film as well. Palpatine is whimpering and playing weak until the second Anakin chops off Mace's hand, then all of a sudden he burst back to life and blasts Mace full force. This makes it clear that Palpatine is faking weakness. (Plus, again, GL states that he is.)

The novel only reinforces the idea that Mace can't beat Palpatine (which makes sense since he's not the Chosen One). He tries using Vaapad, and he admits that it's not being successful. Then, he employs his shatterpoint technique. A shatterpoint is basically someone's weakness. Ultimately, Mace does discover what Palpatine's one weakness is -- his 1 weakness is his trust in Anakin. That's his 1 and only weakness. That means there's nothing Mace can do to hurt Palpatine. If Mace could kill Palpatine, then his one shatterpoint would be Mace's lightsaber or something like that. Instead, Mace senses that Palpatine's 1 weakness is his trust in Anakin, and this turns out to be true and a vision of the future. When Palpatine is frying Luke in ROTJ, Palpatine trusts that Anakin/Vader won't intervene, and he was wrong. Vader intervenes and kills Palpatine. If Palpatine hadn't trusted Vader, he wouldn't have tortured Luke. He would've just Force pushed him to his death, but because he thought he didn't have anything to fear from Vader because he trusted his loyalty, he left himself open for Vader to turn on him. That's the shatterpoint that Mace sensed.

Finally, the novelization also states that Palpatine stops blasting the then armed Mace with Force lightning the instant Mace was about to be overwhelmed. Since GL states that Palpatine is faking losing power, that means that Palpatine could've lasted longer than that instant before Mace was overwhelmed. Consequently, it has to be concluded that if Palpatine wasn't faking weakness he would've overwhelmed Mace. Similarly, he disarms Yoda with his Force Lightning. So, again, if Palpatine was going all out, you'd have to conclude that Palpatine could disarm Mace even more easily since Yoda has the highest midichlorian count apart from Anakin, and if you don't conclude this, then you would be judging Yoda by his size which is a no-no.

So, I can see how someone can conclude that Palpatine lost the duel if that person wants to see that he was disarmed at a very coincidental time, but I just don't see how it makes sense to conclude that Mace could've overcome Palpatine's Force lightning . What GL says, what you see in the film, and what you learn in the novelization all indication that Mace simply couldn't overcome it. In fact, Mace even realizes this himself, since he realizes that he himself is not Palpatine's shatterpoint but this technique shows him that Palpatine's trust in Anakin is his one and only weakness, which turns out to be true.

I think Palpatine is a master manipulator, so you can't judge things by what you see. That's sort of like watching a magic trick and concluding that a magician made a rabbit disappear simply because that's what you saw. Palpatine's whole intention is to deceive. That's why he set up the confrontation -- to trick Anakin. He wants Anakin to believe he is helpless because that forces Anakin to choose to side with him since Anakin thinks Palpatine is his one way to save Padme. Losing the duel may have been legit, but at the end, when Palpatine is defending himself with Force lightning, he's putting on a show to deceive Anakin. Like a person trying to figure out a magician's trick, you can't take things at face value but instead you must look at all the evidence available to figure out exactly what Palpatine is really up to, and when he take into consideration what GL has said, how Palpatine acts in film, and what the novel says, I would argue that it's pretty hard not to conclude that, at the very end, Palpatine is simply using a deception to fool Mace and Anakin so that Palpatine can achieve his greater goals -- turning Anakin to the dark side and creating a justification for Order 66.

(BTW, totally off topic, but that shot of Mace kicking Palpatine looks a little weird to me. It looks like his foot would've gone straight through Palpatine's lightsaber.)

 

darth ladnar

Respect everything you said, but all these theories and great theater plays for chosen one... It seems to me that overrating Anakin too much. I mean, look at Luke incident, Sidious tried to seduce him to the dark side but he failed. So what then ? He just kills him and eliminates the thread before grown strong. He could just kill Anakin, if he refuses to join him. Also that prophecy comes from Qui-Gon Jinn, and it can be easily misread as Yoda said ;

I always though that Anakin was a chosen one for the sith not jedi, since his betrayal cause the fall of the republic. When Mace was going to kill Sidious and finish ''once and for all'' , Anakin simply stopped it via betrayal and accomplish the mission for the sith empire.

Hey, maybe it's just me because I don't like Emokin, but really you guys should consider that quote from Yoda.

 

Palpatine does say something like that in the RoTS novel - that "chosen one" means "chosen by me"

"If only you could know how I have longed to tell you, Anakin. All these years—since the very day we met, my boy. I have watched over you, waiting as you grew in strength and wisdom, biding my time until now, today, when you are finally ready to understand who you truly are, and your true place in the history of the galaxy."
Numb words blur from your numb lips. "The chosen one..."
"Exactly, my boy. Exactly. You are the chosen one." He leans toward you, eyes clear. Steady. Utterly honest. "Chosen by me."
He turns a hand toward the panorama of light-sprayed cityscape through window behind his desk. "Look out there, Anakin. A trillion beings on this planet alone—in the galaxy as a whole, uncounted quadrillions—and of them all, I have chosen you, Anakin Skywalker, to be the heir to my power. To all that I am."
"But that's not... that's not the prophecy. That's not the prophecy of the chosen one..."
"Is this such a problem for you? Is not your quest to find a way to overturn prophecy?" Palpatine leaned close, smiling, warm and kindly. "Anakin, do you think the Sith did not know of this prophecy? Do you think we would simply sleep while it came to pass?"
"You mean—"
"This is what you must understand. This Jedi submission to fate... this is not the way of the Sith, Anakin. This is not my way. This is not your way. It has never been. It need never be."
You're drowning.
"I am not...," you hear yourself say, "... on your side. I am not evil."
"Who said anything about evil? I am bringing peace to the galaxy. Is that evil? I am offering you the power to save Padme. Is that evil? Have I attacked you? Drugged you? Are you being tortured? My boy, I am asking you. I am asking you to do the right thing. Turn your back on treason. On all those who would harm the Republic. I'm asking you to do exactly what you have sworn to do: bring peace and justice to the galaxy. And save Padme, of course—haven't you sworn to protect her, too... ?"
"I—but—I—" Words will not fit themselves into the answers you need. If only Obi-Wan were here—Obi-Wan would know what to say. What to do.
Obi-Wan could handle this.
Right now, you know you can't.


In Star Wars on Trial at least, Stover (writer of the RoTS novelization) voices the opinion that Anakin was "chosen" to destroy the Jedi, and the Sith, including himself, and clear the way for something entirely new - Luke and Leia and what they would create.

What I find so astonishing, in fact, in Opposing Counsel's indictment is that he seems to believe that the Saga endorses rule by a secretive unelected elite—and then spends much of his argument showing how the Saga explicitly rejects that very concept.
Yes, Yoda is secretive, and often unhelpful. The Jedi themselves—SURPRISE!—aren't exactly good guys. Perhaps Opposing Counsel never noticed. Let me enlighten him, and the Court.
If you take a close look at the Jedi Order, you find that—in Mr. Lucas's own words—they're a cross between the Texas Rangers and the Mafia. They are a vast organisation of superheroes—real superheroes, with powers right out of Marvel or DC Comics—who wield near-absolute power in secret, without accountability to anyone but themselves and the Office of the Supreme Chancellor. They are the Justice League with interplanetary Licences to Kill.
And guess what?
The Chosen One is chosen to destroy them.
Does Opposing Counsel expect the Court to believe this is an accident?
Everything Opposing Counsel has to say about Yoda actually undermines his own case!
If Mr. Lucas were truly advocating rule by a benevolent despot, wouldn't Yoda have turned out to be always right? Wouldn't Luke's rebellion against him have become a disaster, from which Yoda would have to rescue him, as a father rescues an errant child?
In fact, at every turn in the Saga, when a Figure of Authority speaks out and gives strict orders ... they're wrong.
Except when that order is to trust in the Force.
In other words: trust the voice of the life within you. Trust yourself. Trust love, Trust faith.
Don't trust people who claim they know what's best for you.
...
Anakin Skywalker—Darth Vader—fulfills a distinct mythic role in the Saga: the Scourge of God. When the world (society, whatever) has become so corrupt only destruction can answer, it is the Scourge of God—customarily a tragic character (q.v. The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark)—who must carry out that destruction, and in the end by destroyed by his own violence. It's not good vs. evil or black vs. white: Anakin/Vader is in fact wiping out that old Manichaean duality that Opposing Counsel so wistfully pines for. Anakin's (and Vader's) destiny is to bring balance to the Force, remember? To do this, he destroys both the Jedi and the Sith— and, necessarily, himself—and leaves Luke with clean hands and a clear conscience, untainted by the corruption of the past, to be half of, ahem, A New Hope for a better future.

And while Opposing Counsel (David Brin) is pretty critical of this idea, Stover does put up a pretty good defence:

Brin:
One of my favourite SW characters, Qui-Gon Jinn, represents everything worthy about the Jedi. He serves the Republic - and a trillion citizens - putting them before Yoda. Generous and honest, he wants a different Jedi path, one worth saving.
...
Still, Mr Stover's explication? The Chosen One is ordained to help annihilate the Jedi Order, every earnest apprentice and billions of bystanders, while paving the way for a despicable tyranny. All so Luke and Leia can lead a cleansed galaxy from the rubble with a clear slate.
Um, what kind of political-moral-ethical lesson is that? "We must burn the village in order to save it?" Might the people of Alderaan and Coruscant prefer to have a voice in this slate-clearing? Must Qui-Gon's sweeter version of Jedi-ness - and those trillions of citizens - suffer because of Yoda's "imbalance"?
Isn't all this "balance" talk just a rationalization for light-dark demigod archetypes to run amok?

Stover:
No.
It's not "just a rationalization." It's the looming shadow of a tragedy. It's the GFFA equivalent of the Delphic oracle prophesying that Oedipus would kill his father and marry his mother.
The operative word here is tragedy.
Yes, bad things happen to innocent people. The flaws of folk of good will are struck by the hammer of fate, and everyone suffers. That's what happens in tragedy.
...
Must everyone suffer? Maybe not. Things could have turned out differently. If Yoda had been younger and more flexible. If Obi-Wan had been less tolerant of Anakin's flaws. If Anakin had been more honest with himself and with others. If Qui-Gon Jinn (Opposing Counsel's favourite character) had been less arrogantly insistent - against all advice, all reason, and 25,000 years of tradition - that Anakin Skywalker must be taken from his mother and trained as a Jedi....
These characters are not paragons of perfection. They are flawed, and their mistakes have devastating consequences.
Everyone suffers.
That's how it went. That's how it goes. That's not interpretation, that's the historical record, as presented by the films.
"Political-moral-ethical lessons" are where you find them.

 

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/si...-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/77247/
^ An interesting blog if you're willing to read it.
In the inner recesses of his private office, the Jedi confronted the Chancellor. Palpatine produced a lightsaber hidden in his sleeve and let the dark side flow through him. It granted him unnatural dexterity and speed—enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and
force the mighty Mace Windu back.
--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Before Mace realizes what has happened
, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.​

--Complete Visual Dictionary(I think)
I firmly believe Mace was amped cause of Vapaad and Sidious let Anakin win.

 

I think that Windu is a better swordsman than Yoda. So yes, I think Palpatine was actually losing the fight.

 

Windu is not a better swordsman than Yoda.

"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."​

http://web.archive.org/web/20051125.../episode-ii/bts/production/news20000711b.html​

With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.​

--Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force

To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.​

--Taken from Insider #62: Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.​

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter​

 

Ultimately it's subjective, but Lucas himself said Yoda would be no good Iin a fight. Not true, ofc, but as long as we're playing the quoting game.

 

Well I also believe he has the feats to back it up.
Beat Dooku while he was amped and Yoda himself was holding back.
Also:

The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light.​

Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous​

Yoda has sparred with them both. No reason to believe he is not knowledgeable on them.

Drove Dooku back in AOTC.

Windu has struggled to beat Ventress in a duel before and also Grievous. Also struggled to beat Tiin in a sparring match. Yoda has wrecked their master or former master twice already.

Also this:



Look at 5:28-5:35

Believe what you want but given the quotes and feats, I'm gonna have to say I believe Yoda is the better duelist. There's more evidence supporting this than the other way around imo.