PT Did Mace Windu really defeat Palpatine?

I don't think any of us will ever know that answer except for GL, and let's be honest, even if he gave it to us he'd change it a few years later anyway.

Part of me wants to believe Mace actually did beat Palps, just to make a comment towards how arrogant the darkside makes one. I mean in EU he is credited as being one of the most powerful and vicious lightsaber combatans there was. He even created his own lightsaber technique, Vap'aad I believe? Plus like the above poster mentioned, Palps was just deflecting his lightning onto himself, however, it would be just like a Sith, especially one as cunning as Palpataine to harm himself just to sell a performance.

I'm kinda split on the matter. We're supposed to believe Palpy is one of the most powerful Sith in the history of the force, but Windu also more than held his own in the fight. Palpataine wasn't indestructible like we're almost made to believe.

 

To me it always came off as a classic example of the wounded gazelle gambit, especially given how manipulative Palpy can be.

 

Yeah, that doesn't say "scarred by the lightning". It actually links the change in his eye color - one of the physical changes manifestly not caused by lightning - to his attempt to intensify his powers. By potential implication the same is true for the distortion of his features. The fact remains that Lucas has not said what you allege, and at the relevant point in the ROTS commentary it is Knoll who speaks, saying that the change is due to Palpatine's exertion.

That's irrelevant to the question of whether or not Mace legitimately won the saber combat.

 

Of course Palpy was one of the most powerful Sith in the history maybe even number one, but that doesn't mean he is invincible. I always thought that duel is a very good example that everyone can lose a fight in a different circumstances and no matter how powerful that person really is. Not to mention Windu was nothing like an average Jedi Master. He was only second to Grand Master Yoda in terms of power, he was also Master of the Order in the Jedi Council, and his lightsaber style was the different than any Jedi in the order, including Yoda's style. Mace actually kind of cheated in that duel since he was using dark side energy to defeat his enemy, that is Vaapad made of. And that is the difference between Yoda and Mace, Yoda never uses dark side energy while Windu's vaapad is using all the dark side energy, including both the user and the opponent.

 

Nah Id say Palpatine was stalling to wait for Anakin. When he knew Anakin arrived he threw the fight in somewhat convincing fashion. He wanted Anakin to make a choice between him (Padme) or the Jedi and by having Mace almost kill him it would show Anakin how violent the Jedi really are and how they are not much different from the Sith like he told Anakin earlier.

 

I don't think anyone can play ''a fake sword fight'' against Mace Windu, Mace is a pretty powerful swordsman (better swordsman than both Obi-Wan and Anakin) and that is too risky and what would Sidious do if Anakin refuses to join the dark side ? Do you think Sidious could take both Mace and Anakin at the same time without his lightsaber ? I highly doubt that.

 

Well I'm sure Sidious fought all that he could to defend himself from Mace, but once Anakin had showed up, he probably felt as though things were in his favor at that point. The reason I say this is because he could (once again) deceive Anakin, and have Anakin fight Mace while Sidious recovers. I agree that Sidious would most likely lose to both Mace and Anakin, but the fact that Anakin was so easily drifted in thought, gave Palpatine the advantage.

 

I think far too many give Mace and Anakin too much credit and Sidious too little. It is NOT about raw power as so many keep insisting. It's about intelligence and patience. No, Mace did not best Sidious he was playing Anakin. Nor did he 'need' a lightsabre as the Jedi seem to. Their over reliance on the weapon is an expression of their own arrogance.

 

Which is exactly why I had brought up deceiving Anakin once again. I also agree that Palpatine relies intelligence and patience, two key parts to everyone's lives, but only so few actually have.

 

If Anakin refuses then he has completely failed it would be over for him. His plans have been revealed better to try and convert him then and there rather than defeat Windu.

If it was Mace and Anakin vs him it's over no matter what.

 

The plot would be so much weaker if Mace hadn't actually defeated Palpatine (okay, I already dislike ROTS...but it would be even worse if this was the case). If Palpatine was in control all along and "everything is proceeding as I have forseen, muahahaha", then the ending is a foregone conclusion and it'd just be boring and stupid.

By contrast, the way I think it should be, and the way George Lucas says it is (I don't always agree with him though, mind you), is that despite Palpatine's brilliant scheming and machinations, they could only get him so far before the Jedi uncovered him. And that's where Anakin comes in, so you have this situation where the fate of the galaxy literally hinges on what he chooses to do. If Anakin had stood by and let Mace kill Sidious, then the Republic would have endured, the Empire would never have been created, and all the stuff that happened in the original trilogy would have never happened.

 

Having things planned doesn't make it boring or stupid.

 

I think he was faking defeat. The moment of truth had arrived and played the only hand left to him. There was even a moment there, right before Anakin chops off Windu's hand, where Palps looks slightly worried that Anakin wasn't going to take the bait. Then he does and Palps gives that little evil smile of his. brilliant scene in my opinion.

 

That just shows that he was on the verge of failure. The Jedi thought they knew their enemy was succeeding, when in reality, it was a "close call".

 

Indeed. Palp's victory was never in his hands. It was always in Anakin's.

 

As others have said, and more eloquently than me, Palpatine was stalling in order for Anakin to believe in the lie of Jedi as bad guys.

 

in other words then: Mace Windu went out like a "punk" after all,

poor Mr Jackson

I can almost imagine the conversation


Sam Jackson: now you sure I win this battle George?

George Lucas: sure Sam! you beat that sith's ***! *turning to McCallum and McDiarmid and mouths: "no way!"*

 

It was a feign for sure but that the Jedi are misguided is true.

 

The Sith lighting attack was no mistake. He waited until he knew Anakin was close then used the lightning which he knew would get Mace to decide to kill him.

He saw it all coming while Mace like the Jedi had no idea what was going on even at the end.

 

But why risk his life for Anakin Mace could have killed him right there.

 

Anakin was his entire plan... It was Anakin or nothing really. He wasn't risking his life he had numerous opportunities to kill Mace even at the end when he raised his Saber he could have just shot lightening or push him out the window if Anakin didn't intervene but still he trusted in Anakin.

 

But mace could deflect it and only when Anakin Cut off his arm did he have an opening.

 

I disagree. Sidious did not need Anakin for his plan to succeed. For some reason, he was obsessed with obtaining him as his apprentice. But as far as needing him to frame and destroy the Jedi and take complete control of the galaxy, he didn't. Sid's victory may have been in Anakin's hands when he was cornered by Mace, but that's only because he (inadvisably) chose to be in that position. It worked out then, but it was ultimately his downfall in ROTJ.

 

Had he not placed everything on that moment with Anakin his victory would've never been in Anakin's hands. He could have placed Order 66 at any time and won. I agree. But because he always planned on turning Anakin, Palps put his victory in Anakin's hands. It's true it didn't have to be that way, but because of Palps own choices it ended up that way. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

I'd still disagree. Sids didn't need Anakin at all.