PT Did Mace Windu really defeat Palpatine?

I agree. I wouldn't have done it that way if I were Sid, but I agree.

 

Don't forget about the other lightsaber up Sidious' sleeve.

He had at least two.

Need? No.

Want? Yes.

He had all he could need but wanted more.

That is Sith.

 

Mace won the sabre battle but lost overall.. Sidious survived, Windu didn't.


Apology accepted Captain Needa...

 

I agree he didn't but I guess he trusted Anakin.

 

''Trust'' ? I don't think that is the way of the Dark Side.

 

I think he needed Anakin, because he believed if he could ensnare the "chosen one", he could circumvent the Sith's prophesied demise.

 

He could kill Anakin, just like he tried to kill Luke, when Luke refuses to join him in RotJ.

 

QBR: *Shrugs* For you, perhaps. Cushy considers Sith much more far ranging and complex.

 

FWIW my view is that Mace won the lightsaber duel fair and square but Palpatine demonstrably faked being defenceless. He claims to be 'too weak' to continue after Mace blocks his lightning yet clearly blasts him, if anything much more powerfully, after Anakin slices Mace's arm off, almost in celebration more than anything. We also saw in the Sidious/Yoda duel that the Emperor is quite capable of blasting a lightsaber out of someone's hands. My impression is that Sidious had plenty more in the tank and feigned vulnerability in order to deceive Anakin.

I certainly don't agree with the OP's suggestion that Sidious defeated Yoda. If anything Yoda had the best of it with the lightsabers and at the end both are blown back by the sheer power of their force duel. Both are clinging on to senate pods for dear life at the end (Yoda falls) and this shows that they had both exhausted their powers for a while. They are clearly supposed to be equals (hence why Anakin is the 'Balance of the Force'?). Each is supposed to represent the ultimate expression of their side of the force -it makes sense that they should be equals.

 

I can see how some may believe such but I disagree. I don't think Yoda and Sidious were equals nor do I think either are ultimate embodiments of either side of Force.

 

Indeed. Yoda was clearly the stronger.


Apology accepted Captain Needa...

 

I'm not sure it's how you meant to interpret my post but I thought I should clarify that my intention was not that Yoda and Palpatine are the 'ultimate embodiments' of their respective sides of the Force. What I was trying to articulate was that, in my view, they are symbological representations of their respective sides of the Force. Now within the confines of the movies that does actually make them the 'ultimate embodiments' that appear there, but I did not mean that in an abstract sense as if it could not even be conceived that there is a greater embodiment than either of them. If that distinction makes sense or even matters.

 

Indeed. Yoda was clearly the stronger.
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clearly? I don't think so, in fact it's a pretty debatable thing,

you can say "clearly Yoda has a green saber" but you can't possibly say with any weight "clearly Yoda is stronger".

 

Sidious threw everything he had against him. Yoda dealt with it quite well. He hadn't even warmed up whilst Sidious was beginning to become desperate.Yoda was ultimately defeated by the terrain.


Apology accepted Captain Needa...

 

I think its pretty clear Palpatine threw the fight. Anakin literally arrives as Palpatine is crawling into a corner with Mace's lightsaber pointed directly at him. The timing was perfect. Palpatine called for Anakin telepathically and sensed his arrival at the senate (something the Sith can do easily, think Vader in ANH when Obi-Wan enters the Death Star) so he allowed Mace to gain the upper hand until conveniently dropping his lightsaber following the kick to the face mere seconds before Anakin's entrance.

Palpatine needed to push Anakin into turning. Placing Anakin in the same uncomfortable predicament as that with Dooku earlier in the film was perfect. Anakin didn't want to execute Dooku citing it wasn't "the Jedi way" but Palpatine urged him to. Here the tables had turned. Mace wanted to execute Palpatine and Anakin again felt that wasn't "the Jedi way".

For anyone convinced Mace could have taken Palpatine - he had ample opportunity prior to Anakin's arrival and clearly couldn't. And Palpatine clearly doesn't want to kill Mace. He wants to keep him in the fight until Anakin arrives. The scenario of Anakin turning only works if Palpatine appears to be at a disadvantage. Other scenarios don't work for a number of reasons.

Scenario 1 - Mace can take Palpatine in a fight
Palpatine kills the three Master Jedi, then Mace kills Palpatine. Anakin learns of this. Then what? Anakin's role as the Chosen One was to destroy the Sith. In order to do that he must become one first and then turn on Palpatine via his love for Luke. Mace being capable of dispatching Palpatine makes no sense. It just doesn't work.

Scenario 2 - Palpatine kills Mace prior to Anakin's arrival
Anakin: "You murdered innocent Jedi. You're a monster. I'm not joining you." 50 Jedi then storm Palpatine's office. Palpatine is killed. Again, then what? Anakin's role as the Chosen One was to destroy the Sith. In order to do that he must become one first and then turn on Palpatine via his love for Luke. Palpatine killing Mace as fast as he killed the other three makes no sense. He had to keep him alive.

I have no doubt in my mind that Palpatine threw the fight thus allowing Anakin's doubts about the Dark Side to fade in the midst of the situation. The fight with Yoda later just cements the idea that Palpatine could not be defeated, even by Yoda - the Jedi's strongest warrior. If anything Yoda was the only Jedi capable of surviving a fight with him. Mace was doomed the moment he arrived with the rest of the Jedi to arrest Palpatine. He had no chance and would have been killed by Palpatine one way or the other.

 

But in particular - if Mace Windu was indeed Powerful Jedi Master - he SURELY could have at least applied Tutaminis to try to counter the full raw barrage of Sith Lightning eh? Yet he's completely helpless and just blasted with a full vamp up of it ... I mean sure he's in pain and shock of Anakin's intervention and 'betrayal' YET he couldn't apply any Tutaminis at all and he's at the mercy of Palpatine who goes Force-happy and blasts him with Sith Lightning until Judgement Day ... or is it that Sith Lightning and particularly Palpatine's is just far far beyond what most can endure given even Darth Maul was helpless against it ... and whilst Master Yoda and Galen Marek could do so - it wasn't so easy ... and in Galen Marek's case he endured agony and pain afterwards as if a 'star were burning within him...'

 

I know this is a very old post, and I really hope you've changed your mind by now, but your logic regarding Palpatine's act of making force lightning to feign weakness makes no sense whatsoever. It's so twisted that it actually prompted me to make an account to refute your argument. Honestly, that is the most irrational method of feigning weakness and we can all agree if Palpatine is as cunning and intelligent as he is portrayed, he would've had a better plan if his plan all along was to feign weakness in front of Anakin. Also your point about not being able to feign weakness with a lightsaber does not apply at all. By the time anakin walked in, Palpatine was already disarmed!!!! If he really wanted to feign weakness he would've bloody just sat there, helpless and cried out for help to Anakin. It was already clear that Windu was not going to kill him straight away because as soon as he was disarmed, Windu did not cut his head off! Plus, what kind of idiot trying to pretend to be weak, after being accused of having lost as a Sith, responds with "No......NO....... YOU HAVE LOST" *SHOOTS LIGHTNING.

Your posts are incredibly long and I don't have the time to read all of them, so if you've conceded to this faulty logic of yours, then I am sorry, I didn't realise. But having read the first few pages, this really really annoyed me. I have no gripes with your other points, but just in regards to your argument that shooting force lightning could still be a cloak to feign weakness - that is too far of a stretch for any rational mind.

 

I really don't understand how this is still a debate. Lucas confirmed in the commentary that Mace won.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! I HAVE HAD IT WITH THESE MEGABLASTED SITH IN THIS MEGABLASTED SENATE!

 

I don't understand how this is still a debate either. George Lucas the creator, creates Palpatine killing windu after Palpatine easily kills 3 Jedi Masters equal to Windu. George Lucas the creator also creates Palpatine planting seeds in Anakins mind of saving Padme in the lead up to Palpatines victory over 4 Jedi masters in the same fight . Which proves Anakins arrival at the exact time Palptine was disarmed and overpowered (lol) by a kick to the face (LOL) was not lucky nor coincidental. Another thing is Palpatine didn't even need his sabre against windu. He easily and quickly could've killed windu with lightning (which he later did). But it would've been a lot harder to turn Anakin and convince the senate the Jedi are evil. Or I guess Palpatine wasn't a master manipulator or schemer and could not possibly have his plans transpire according to his design. The fanboys will forever cling to Lucas' running (gospel) commentary by stating the bleeding obvious that at that point Palps was "overpowered", and ignore everything that was happening in the movie. There cannot be any debate that Palpatine DEFEATED AND KILLED windu and 3 Jedi masters. An unarmed Palpatine defeated and killed an unarmed windu with unlimited power whilst the "chosen one" who was a Jedi Knight therefore still an ally of windu watched on. So apart from 1 Sith lord (Palpatine) doing battle against 5 Jedi Masters and been threatened (with a lightsabre) by the chosen one (the one prophisied to defeat the Sith)= Palpatine victorious by defeating and killing 4 (including windu) Jedi Masters in one battle 4v1. Then gaining the chosen one as his new apprentice. Then defeating Yoda 1v1 when Yoda ran away from a fair fight. All of this created by George Lucas himself. I can now see how windu defeated Palpatine in a fight to the death lol. I guess it's human nature to see and hear only what one wants to (which i'm sure someone will try and throw back at me lol).

 

Well I admit I am a full-fledged Mace fanboy (just look at my avatar! lol), so my perspective may be a bit biased. I think Mace definitely outclassed Sidious with a lightsaber, but that Sidious is stronger in the Force. However, I think Mace's Vaapad technique was able to channel that Force energy back at Sidious, making Mace more powerful at that time and thus winning the duel. All things equal, I think Sidious would win, but with Mace's style of fighting, things are never equal with him.

And I don't think Sidious wasn't trying his hardest either. He knew who Mace was - one of the most dangerous Jedi that the Order had ever produced. He knew he needed to throw everything he had at Mace.

That's why I think GL is right (can't believe I had to justify that in the first place, it's GL! But haha it's not big deal ).

 

I don't know if Mace actually defeated Palpatine. And I don't know if Palpatine had faked his defeat.

But I do believe that both men were capable of defeating each other.

 

Ironically, I think this question was one of the first things I posted to when I joined this forum.

My opinion still hasn't changed. I think Mace legitimately disarmed Palp. (I can't see him purposely taking a boot to the face before Anakin even arrived) But Palps whole "I'm sooooo weeeeeak" routine was a sham for Ani's benefit. I think he could've more than held his own against Mace with his force lightening if need be.

So the bottom line, Mace beat Palps in swordplay, Palps would've likely beat Mace with Force lightening but was holding back for Anakin to make his move. The result is more or less a draw, not unlike Yoda vs Palps.

 

I agree - GL is right. GL Created Palpatine killing, thus defeating mace and 3 Jedi masters all in the one battle. When Jedi fight with the Sith it's a battle to the death (unless one of them flees). If mace was even half the Jedi master the fanboys hoped for, he would have fought Palpatine alone. But he needed 3 other jedi masters and all were defeated. mace defeating Palplatine is the same as awarding the match to the boxer who lays face down knocked out on the canvas (can't believe I had to simplify that)

 

He didn't need them though. He just brought them because he had no idea what he would be dealing with. If he knew the differences in power between the he and Sidious and the other Jedi masters, I am sure he would have gone alone.

 

Palpatine revealed himself to Anakin as the Sith Lord as he was planting the seeds in Anakins head. windu knew Palpatine was the Sith Lord the Jedi had been looking for. After everything Palpatine had achieved, windu must have realised that Palpatine was far superior in power and intelligence than he could possibly imagine. That is why he fought Palpatine 4v1. Even then windu underestimated Palpatine's superiority as Palps defeated and killed all 4 Jedi Masters. windu should've perhaps turned up with the entire Jedi Council lol. Even then it would have been the same result all council members defeated and killed by Palps, and windu being kept alive long enough to make Anakin choose the darkside (Sith), then kill windu with ease. If windu went alone windu's fate would've played out the same way. Palpatine always needed windu be kept alive because he was instrumental in Anakin's turn.