PT Did Mace Windu really defeat Palpatine?

I'm of the opinion that Lucas changes his mind too often to take his ROTS commentary at face-value. He states Mace won, and perhaps this is a solid fact to him (I'm unsure), but there is the possibility he says this just to emphasise that Mace should have continued to attempt an arrest. Although Mace clearly (IMO) makes a mistake in not trying again to arrest Palpatine, I don't fully blame him for his actions, he had already attempted an arrest twice before Palpatine started the lightning. Anakin makes the mistake, and a greater mistake than any other character in the series, but this mistake wouldn't have been anywhere near as likely if Mace hadn't made a mistake himself. It's a pretty grey area, there aren't really any characters that make the wisest move for themselves in this film, besides maybe Palpatine of course.

I agree that Palpatine could hold his own against Mace, and was probably playing defensive until he sensed Anakin's approach, but he would still be trying for most of the duel. He isn't a god, and Mace was one of the most powerful in the Order.
I do agree that he knew Anakin would come though, and (arguably) hesitated on purpose (the novel suggests this) allowing Mace the chance to disarm him at the most convenient moment for Palpatine.
If you look at how much the events of the PT come about because of Palpatine (and of course his foresight in ROTJ) it seems strongly implied.

He goes to pretty great lengths to set in motion the events of TPM, absolutely knowing he will become Supreme Chancellor from the start.

Notice in AOTC...
- he not only puts Obi-Wan and Anakin with Padme ("I recognise all too well that additional security will be disruptive for you m'lady... but perhaps someone you are familiar with... an old friend like Master Kenobi.") arguably trying to set up temptation for Anakin...
- but also is the one to convince Padme to go off-world with Anakin for protection; conveniently making Padme, the strongest opposition to a Republic Army, away for the vote.

His actions in TPM and AOTC of course initiate the Clone Wars; entirely because of himself, and a gullible and partially corrupt Senate.

ROTS is really his shining moment (lol). Most of the events of the movie can be traced back to Palpatine, particularly using the timing of the end of the war to his own ends.



Not sure if you were serious that if the whole Council was brought it would be the same outcome. Palpatine was more powerful than any of them individually, but a whole group (particularly if they brought Anakin and Anakin stayed loyal to the Jedi) would likely be another story.

 

It's interesting to speculate on this, but to me it's not really important whether Palpatine threw the duel or not.

I'm just sure of one thing. He might have lost the duel with Windu, but he would never get killed by him. Palpatine knew about the prophecy and the only way he was going to die was by the hands of Anakin.
Windu's big mistake was that he didn't trust Anakin. But Anakin always sided with those that trusted him. Palpatine trusted and believed in him in RotS and Luke trusted him in RotJ.

 

That's actually a very interesting point, I never really thought of it that way

 

He changed his mind on the issue of how many films he wanted to make. Big deal. When it comes to plot, he doesn't actually change his mind any more often than an average person, and on this specific plot point ( as with many others ) there's no evidence that he changed his mind at all.

 

That is hardly the only thing we have proof he changed his mind on.

And on Mace winning the fight, he did change his mind, as the original cut of the scene didn't have Palpatine feigning weakness.

 

It also didn't have Mace being out-dueled. Mace's skill in no way depends on anyone feigning weakness. But I meant that Lucas never changed his mind about the final scene, as it appeared in the released film, after the fact. He has only taken one position on the scene we saw.

 

Fair point.
Nevertheless, I think the original cut was more of a stalemate between Palpatine and Mace than what we got. In both versions it is Anakin's decision that leads to Mace's death, but originally (if I'm not mistaken) Palpatine didn't seem defeated at all, the intensity of the situation built up until Anakin just turned on Mace, clearly choosing a side. IMO the betrayal is more metaphorical in the final cut - Anakin wasn't necessarily trying directly to cause Mace's death, but deep-down he was choosing Palpatine, Padme, and himself, over all the Jedi. The fact that Mace is the clear winner of the duel now, and Palpatine didn't originally give him a window to strike, seems to me to imply Mace technically didn't originally win the duel.

Probably. I'm not completely educated on the making of material tbh.

 

If Anakin felt the need to do that, I think we can at least say that it did not look like Mace was losing at that point. Because if it had, Anakin could have simply declined to intervene.

 

But I still wonder - HOW COME Mace Windu was unable to apply ANY TUTAMINIS against a Raw Angry Barrage of Vamped Up Sith Lightning? I mean his Vaapad and Force Skill Powers are considerable and advanced and yet the moment he was blasted and subject to a full raw barrage he couldn't apply ANY TUTAMINIS at all ... I mean sure his arm got bisected and he was in shock but still you'd think for a Powerful Jedi Master to have Shatter-point yet he couldn't apply Tutaminis ...

 

Yeah, I agree with that.

I'm still not completely decided on the legitimacy of Mace's victory even in the final version. It seems a particularly subjective thing, especially considering the debate since 2005.

To me, I think either way it is clear Palpatine was counting solely on Anakin to intercept the strike. Anakin is his whole plan in that scene, it is the only reason he has let himself be in that position IMO.
He trusts Anakin, like Luke will inversely trust Anakin years later in ROTJ.

 

Lets stick with that idea for second.

The prophecy, as told to us by the Jedi says that Anakin would destroy the Sith. Well, it doesn't necessarily say that they would exactly die by his hand, does it?

If we follow the train of thought that says Windu actually beat Sidious, well there is only one person in that room that controls both the fate of the Sith and the Jedi. That being Anakin.

Right at that moment, there is only one person that gets to decide who lives and dies, again being Anakin. Anakin has to make a choice, protect Sidious which means stopping Mace, or allow Mace to kill Sidious.

If Anakin allows Mace to kill Sidious, then Anakin has fulfilled the prophecy because he made a choice to allow it to happen. He was the one there in the room with the power to stop mace, so by not doing so, his decision would have destroyed the Sith, seeing how Sidious no longer had an apprentice. So Anakin had a chance there to fulfill the prophecy, not directly by doing it himself, but, by allowing someone else to do it, by not interfering.

However, he obviously makes the wrong choice. Luckily he gets a second chance 20-some years later. However, at the cost of billion of lives...

 

I personally believe that Anakin was the one that had to do the job. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my previous post, but I think that even if Anakin allowed Mace to do the kill, Mace wouldn't be able to do so. Something would have prevented him from doing so. I firmly believe that the prophecy required Anakin's choice and doing. That's why I don't think it's even that relevant to ask if Windu really won the duel, because it was never in his hands to finish the job.

 

No I understood what you meant, that it had to be done by Anakins hands.

I am just looking at that scene, and what we know about the prophecy, and I believe the Jedi may have been being way to literal or maybe we the fans are. There's part of me that thinks that scene, that moment in the GFFA is Anakin's first chance to fulfill the prophecy because he has both Mace's and Sidious's fate in his hands. By choosing one over the other, he resigns one to death. Yes he doesn't do it physically himself, but, his choice would have led to the same outcome had it done it himself.

 

Interesting, I hadn't thought of that take on Anakin's task as the chosen one.

I think I agree with this though, personally.

It also makes Mace seem more blind for not bringing Anakin along in the first place, and for moving in for a kill-strike in his last moments.
If he had still believed in the prophecy that he himself had reinforced to Obi-Wan in AOTC, then he must have really been acting out of anger/fear for the Jedi Order and the Republic, in the heat of the moment, to try this in the first place.

I like the novelisation's take on it, that at the end Mace was so focused on Palpatine's shatterpoint (which he is surprised to find is Anakin), that he forgets to focus on Anakin's.
The surprise Mace feels that Palpatine shows no concern that the chosen one has entered the room, kind of matches the "stay back" hand gesture he gives Anakin when Anakin arrives in the finished film. He is ironically still seeing Anakin as Jedi backup, to the very last moment.
There is also a quite humorous line in the book, when Anakin states "I need him! I need him to save Padme!", Mace can only blankly think "Why?!?"
I just thought this was a quite clever reflection of how much Palpatine had done behind the Jedi's backs, Mace being clueless with regards to both to the secret marriage and the Sith power to cheat death.

 

I used to feel 100% that way myself, now I am not sure where I lean. It is a bit of a struggle for me. In one corner I like the idea that Sidious was only faking, and let Mace win so as to force Anakin into a decision. That if Anakin hadn't of made the decision he made, Sidious would have easily gotten out of it anyway because he was only faking.

However, when I thought of the other scenario, that this was Anakin's first chance at fulfilling the prophecy, that really interested me as well. He may have not done it directly by killing the Sith himself, however, he would have done it by allowing mace to to the dirty work, which could only be allowed by Anakin's deliberate choice. The problem I have with this is it goes against my first point that Sidious was faking. In order for the second theory to work, well that means that Sidious was truly beaten and could not have avoided Mace's killing blow.

Part of me still wants to lean towards the Sidious is faking theory, it just seems to fit so much better with:



However, the other theory, that it was Anakin's first chance to fulfill his destiny as the chosen one, still gnaws at me...

 

I'm in the same boat, I go back and forth on this more than most aspects of SW.

I think for me it kind of reads as both. As in, he was faking and wasn't really in danger, but was actually completely letting Mace go for a lethal strike because he was sure Anakin would intervene. So he had no real backup plan at the last moment, he was just completely sure the strike wouldn't hit because Anakin would step in just in time. And why he would bother doing this is I think the greedy desire for Anakin to be involved in a Jedi Master's death, hence passing the point of no-return.

Yeah that seems viable, especially since I think there are quotes by Lucas that say he could have fulfilled the prophecy at that moment right? Hard to say if just letting Mace go for the kill would be technically fulfilling this.

Heh, yeah.
I'm not sure what I can add, but something relevant; do you think there was a chance Anakin would have killed Palpatine one (Anakin/Palpatine) scene earlier when Sidious revealed his true identity.?I guess Palpatine was confident because of their 13 year relationship that Anakin would hand him over to the Council?

 

^^This is what I believe. He might have thrown the duel against Mace and it's very likely that he did, but when Mace was going in for the kill, I truly believe that Palpatine had no real backup plan apart from trusting Anakin. The same way he trusted him aboard the Second Death Star when Luke decided to go for the lightsaber and for the strike. Anakin/Vader intervened in both cases.

It really is a fantastic scene and it perfectly mirrors and rhymes (no sarcasm) with the one from RotJ.

 

Yeah, I think Palpatine wanted to force Anakin into that position of making a choice. Palpatine had been manipulating Anakin for over a decade, and this was Palpatine's pay day for being so patient.

Was there? Now I am going to have to hunt those down if they are out there.

Another thing that crossed my mind, was that if Anakin allows Mace to kill Sidious, then Anakin's prophetic dreams fall apart as well. Padme and Anakin could go on to raise their children happily. The Republic would have made the transition from Palpatine back to what it should have been, and I feel the Jedi Order would have survived as well. There is nothing in the movies that suggests that the people were un-happy with the Jedi prior to Palpatines accusations that they tried to take over. However, it seems the Rebellion of the OT saw through Palpatine's accusations as many of the leaders adopted the Jedi phrase "May the Force be with you".

I don't even think Mace or any of the Jedi would struggle too much with what he did to Sidious (killing an unarmed man) because of the absolute direness of what was going on. Mace knew what was at stake. How many of us, if we were in 1940 and had Hitler on his knees in front of us, wouldn't put him down? I don't think there would be any hesitation on my part.

So the consequences of Anakin and his choice in the scene with Mace and Palpatine completely flips the galaxy on it's head.

Would have...? No, I don't think he would have. He wanted to kill Palpatine, but, he knew he had to do the right thing, the right thing for that moment anyway. Which was to report it to the rest of the council to see how they should proceed. Anakin still wants to do the right thing at that point.

I believe Palpatine knew that Anakin wasn't going to even try to kill him,but he still turns his back to Anakin to give him the opportunity too, as a test. When Anakin resists that temptation, Palpatine knows whats coming next.



Edit: something else that I loved about the scene where Palpatine revelas himself to Anakin, is the mirroring of that scene to the one later on with Anakin and Obi Wan.

In the first scene there is the Sith Lord, turning his back to his friend, Anakin (a Jedi). Later on, now it is Anakin as a Sith lord, turning his back to his friend, Obi Wan (a Jedi).

Just a nice mirroring that Anakin has now become the thing that he was sworn to destory...

Couldn't find a suitable pic of the scene with Anakin and Palpatine, it happens at 2:50 of the video where Palpatine turns his back to Anakin, and Anakin is over Palpatine's left shoulder, you can only see Anakin's lightsaber though.



Later on in the movie we see the same exact scenrio this time Anakin is now the a Sith Lord...

 

Don't quote me on this (no pun intended), but I recall at least one quote where Lucas stated he could fulfill his destiny as the chosen one right here, but chose to side with Palpatine and put it off for 23 years. Pretty hazy on Lucas quotes generally though, maybe Iron_lord knows the reference I am remembering?

There are hints here and there, but it is hard to separate out what is directly a result of Palpatine's influence in the first place.

From the deleted Senate scene at the start of AOTC:

AMBASSADOR DARSANA
Why weren't the Jedi able to stop this assassination? We are no longer safe, under their protection.


And the second of Padme's deleted ROTS scenes indicates even the "Delegation of 2000" members had their doubts:

PADME
I know a Jedi I feel it would be wise to consult.
BANA BREEMU
That would be dangerous.
MON MOTHMA
We don't know where the Jedi stand in all this.
PADME
I only wish to discuss this with one . . . one I trust.
GiDDEAN DANU
Going against the Chancellor without the support of the Jedi is risky.
PADME
The Jedi aren't any happier with the situation than we are . . .

The irony being the Jedi would have had more ammo against their "reputation assassination" if the strong-minded Senators and the Jedi had teamed up sooner.


Plus, I think others have said (don't know the source) that Palpatine had been gradually making the Jedi seem responsible for the war.

I love those quotes by non-force-sensitives in the OT. Like Han saying it affectionately to Luke when Han is seemingly abandoning them. And Ackbar saying it before the Battle of Endor is a pretty cool nod to the fact that they still hold onto some of the pre-Empire ideals.

Well said.
Although I think while Mace indeed totally knew the stakes, and wasn't really doing the Galaxy an injustice if he succeeded, he arguably wasn't thinking about the big picture. Yes, Palpatine controlled the Senate and the Courts, and holding him successfully would be tricky. But Mace is a Jedi Master, they are supposed to be above acting that impulsively. Nothing had really changed about Palpatine's status since before Palpatine slaughtered his three comrades and attempted to fry him. Mace was just pissed off. He correctly tries to arrest Palpatine twice before this, but Palpatine being a general bastard pushed him over the edge, just as Palpatine was hoping. I don't think Mace was really sensing what killing Palpatine on the spot would really mean - seemingly blind to the state of the chosen one standing right beside him. Again, who can blame him, but as a more respected member of the Jedi Council than Anakin, I think Anakin expected more clarity from him.

Agreed. I can't help but mention the Palpatine parallel to Luke in ROTJ.
Luke turns his back to Vader and Vader lights Luke's new lightsaber behind Luke's back. There is a tense moment in both scenes, but neither Palpatine or Luke expect Anakin/Vader to strike.

Palpatine: "Are you going to kill me?" / Luke: "That's why you couldn't kill me."

Palpatine: "Of course you should." (turn him over) /
Luke: "That's why you won't turn me over to you Emperor now."

Anakin: "I'm going to turn you over to the Jedi Council." / Vader: "The Emperor will show you the true nature of the force. He is your Master now."

The major difference being that Anakin goes from "son" being mentored to father-figure doing the mentoring.
Palpatine: "I can feel you anger. It gives you focus. Makes you stronger." /
Vader: "Indeed you are powerful, as the Emperor has foreseen."

Edit 2 - This of course leads to...
Anakin "saving" Palpatine, last Sith alive and returning the Sith to power / vs /
Vader saving Luke, last Jedi alive and returning the Jedi to power.


Edit - Just saw your edit. Hadn't thought of that one. There is also Obi-Wan over Yoda's shoulder in ESB - "That boy is our last hope."
Seems more significant if you listen to Anakin and Obi-Wan's exchange in the scene you mention.

 

I always thought it would've been a sick twist if Anakin had picked up Mace Windu's lightsaber after the confrontation in Palpatine's office, and used it in his fight with Obi-Wan. Almost like a slap in the face, and it would've added even more tension and drama to their showdown when Obi-Wan would've come to the realization/thought that Anakin had possibly killed Mace. Then after Obi-Wan beat Anakin he could've picked up both Anakin's and Mace's sabers. Then later on in the OT, it would've been cool to see Luke find Mace's lightsaber at Obi-Wan's hut and eventually use it in his fight with Vader in RotJ. I think the irony would've been neat that Luke helps bring about the end of the Sith with the saber of the Jedi who should've by all rights did it 25 years earlier. Imagine the look on Palpatine's and Vader's faces when Luke pulls out Windu's lightsaber lol. It would've been a fitting and funny irony.

 

Lol.

 

I think Mace legitimately beat Palpatine. Whether or not you really think that, it's still pretty clear that Palpatine needed Anakin to defeat Mace.

 

I think Mace won, but Sidious was prepared for either contingency,sensing through the Force Anakin was on his way:

- Sidious wins. He likely kills Mace right in front of Anakin, and can say that this proves the Sith are more powerful than the Jedi, and therefore powerful enough to save Padme.

- Mace wins. Sidious plays the defeated, helpless victim, and we get what we got.

 

The one I remember was a quote from Matthew Stover in an interview about the ROTS novelization around the time it came out. I can't find a specific quote from Lucas saying the same thing.

 

I urge everyone to watch the scene again... As mace is about to strike, mace lifts his hands above his head to land the death blow. Palpatine the whole time is in position with his hands out in front of him. With mace in such a wide open position Palps could've easily killed mace right there. Palps knew Anakin had already made his choice, Palptine was very sensitive to what Anakin was thinking and feeling. If Anakin didn't interfere, Palps hands were in position to stop mace with lightning. No matter what, mace was already defeated long before the 4 Jedi masters picked a fight with the wrong guy. Please, everyone carefully watch the scene again and the scenes before when Palps is leading Anakin towards the dark side. This proves beyond doubt, the events that took place with the 4 Jedi masters trying to kill Palps and Anakin becoming Vader, all went according to Palps design. However there are people who think Palps just got lucky lol. I'm still trying to find where this alternate version is they're watching. And I can't find any windu fanboy glasses to watch the movie with lol