PT Did Mace Windu really defeat Palpatine?

That's like saying trust what a magician shows you. A magician is trying to deceive his audience. Palpatine is trying to deceive Mace and Anakin. That Palpatine deceives some in the audience just shows how cleverly he manipulates the situation.

This is disputable. There is one throwaway line that implies that Mace is a superior swordsman to Yoda. There are things things such as Yoda's higher midichlorian count that suggest the opposite. Also, Mace can barely deflect Palpatine's lightning with his sword, while Yoda can deflect it with his hands. Also, Mace fights Mother Talzin to a tie. Palpatine easily disarms her. Also, Palpatine disarms Yoda (with his higher midis; & don't judge him by his size), yet he doesn't disarm Mace, suggesting he was holding back. The novel further develops this idea. Palpatine lets up the very second Mace is about to be overwhelmed. Also, the novel indicates that Mace senses that Palpatine's only shatterpoint (i.e. only weakness) is not Mace himself, but his loyalty to Anakin, which ultimately proves to be true.

It's very clear Palpatine that planned this confrontation beforehand, and he didn't have to plan it to the nth degree. He reveals himself to Anakin because he knows that if Anakin won't join him, Anakin will then report him to the Jedi, and he actually encourages Anakin to do this. Why would he encourage Anakin to do to reveal his identity unless he didn't want the Jedi posse to come? It's because he does want them to come, and he knows who will be coming because virtually all the Jedi are off-world. Palpatine would have to be an absolute moron to just sit there in his office and await a group of Jedi who mean to arrest or kill him if he doesn't know he can defend himself against them. You don't encourage a group of guys to come fight you if you can't kick their butts. Only a moron would do that. If Palpatine wasn't sure he could take them, he wouldn't have told Anakin to tell the Jedi about him in the first place.

The reason for instigating this confrontation has virtually nothing to do with killing those 4 Jedi. Palpatine has 2 motives for starting that fight: 1) He wants to convert Anakin now that Anakin seems somewhat keen to join the dark side and before Anakin becomes too powerful as an adversary 2) He wants to create a motive for the Jedi Purge. Mace, being a dope, doesn't think things through and falls for Palpatine's trap.

Palpatine also didn't have to think things out to the nth degree. He only needed to know Anakin would return and that he would be able to resist one of the Jedi until Anakin returned. Once Anakin returns, then Palpatine can say: "I told you. The Jedi are trying to take over."

Also, do you think it's just a coincidence that Palpatine is disarmed an instant before Anakin enters the room? So, Palpatine has purposefully set up this confrontation with the intention of converting Anakin, and just by chance he happens to lose his lightsaber the second before Anakin enters the room, making it look like Mace has his lightsaber pointed at the neck of a weapon-less, defenseless, president of the galaxy? So, all of this that helps make Mace look like a traitor happened by sheer coincidence when that's exactly what Palpatine wanted to happen in the first place?

Lucas has made it very clear what fulfilling the prophecy means. It means killing off the Sith. The films make that clear too. Vader kills Palpatine and returns to the light, thus, no more Sith. The films also state of 3 different occasions that the prophecy means killing off the Sith.

At that point in the film, there is only 1 Sith left. If Mace can kill him, then that means that Mace can fulfill the prophecy, but of course, he can't fulfill the prophecy because he's not the Chosen One.

So basically, according to your interpretation, Mace can kill the last remaining Sith when this would be fulfilling the prophecy and preventing Anakan, the real Chosen One, from doing so; Palpatine has to be a total moron (for encouraging a group of Jedi to attack him who are legitimate threat to his life); and that Palpatine sets this confrontation in motion with the intention of making the Jedi look traitorous and he achieves this goal by sheer luck.

All of what I've just mentioned necessarily must be true for your argument to make sense. Does it make any sense that the most pivotal moment in the PT (what motivates Anakin to convert) happens by sheer luck? Does it make any sense that Palpatine would act like a total moron at the most important moment in his ascendency when being a moron is totally counter to his entire character in all 6 films? Does it make any sense that Lucas would create the Chosen One prophecy and then make it clear that Mace can fulfill that prophecy by killing the final Sith when it's clear that Anakin actually does fulfill the prophecy in ROTJ? Your interpretation turns the entire PT into a jumbled mess that makes no sense just to preserve the idea that Mace is a badass. This is silly. Palpatine set up the fight, he knew what was coming, he had certain goals for setting up that fight, he achieved all those goals. All this shows that Palpatine was manipulating the situation. That's a great interpretation for the Saga. Palpatine is a master manipulator. And how does he convert the Chosen One to a Sith? By being a master manipulator, and not by being really, really lucky.

Yes, they choreographed the fight in that way for a specific purpose -- to make it clear that Palpatine could have killed Mace, and simply didn't because he was biding his time until Anakin would arrive.

Lucas says that Palpatine is faking weakness and holding back. Holding back means that Palpatine wasn't going full force. Mace was barely holding him off and Palpatine wasn't going full force. Also, it's clear that Palpatine was holding back because the second Mace is disarmed he bursts back to life and fries Mace to death. He was just playing possum. Palpatine also didn't stop because of the lightning arcing back. He was faking weakness. Palpatine wasn't being disfigured by that lightning. That's what Palpatine really looks like. Lucas has said that that is Palpatine's real appearance. His fake appearance is his non-grotesque face. Palpatine allows his true appearance to show through because it convinces Anakin that he is really being hurt when he isn't. It's also obvious that the lightning really hasn't forced his appearance to change -- lightning doesn't cause your eyes to turn yellow, it doesn't turn your fingernails into pointy talons, it doesn't add a layer of grime to your teeth.

Palpatine was simply playing Mace to trick Anakin (and apparently some in the audience). If he didn't hold back (as Lucas says he does), then he could've disarmed Mace (as he disarmed Yoda) and then fried Mace. If he didn't pretend to allow himself be disfigured, then Anakin wouldn't have a reason to think he couldn't defend himself.

I don't think you fully understand what's going on in this scene. Palpatine's goal here was not to kill some Jedi. He orchestrated this fight for a much bigger reason -- to make the Jedi look like traitors. He can't very well make Anakin feel sorry for him if Anakin comes back and finds 4 dead Jedi on the ground and Palpatine sitting there relaxing in his chair. He needed to create that sympathy in Anakin. Anakin wasn't willing to turn without it. He had already offered to teach Anakin the dark side of the Force and Anakin rejected it, so he needed to create a situation that would play on his emotions, and it doesn't make a lot of sense that that situation came about just by sheer luck. Palpatine wants to do the exact opposite of killing Mace first. He knows that Anakin has had more friction with Mace than any other Jedi. He wants to create a convincing image when Anakin enters that room, and a hot-headed Mace, 2nd in command of the Jedi, with his saber pointing at an unarmed Palpatine is something that will inspire sympathy in Anakin.

Let me repeat: Does it make any sense that the most pivotal moment in the PT (what motivates Anakin to convert) happens by sheer luck? Does it make any sense that Palpatine would act like a total moron at the most important moment in his ascendency when being a moron is totally counter to the characterization of him being a brilliant master manipulator in all 6 films? Does it make any sense that Lucas would create the Chosen One prophecy and then make it clear that Mace can fulfill that prophecy by killing the final Sith when it's clear that Anakin actually does fulfill the prophecy in ROTJ?

Sure, could it be true what you're saying? Yes, but only if (and these are big If's) Palpatine is a moron, an outcome Palpatine wanted to occur only ended up occurring by sheer luck, and the Chosen One prophecy ends up making no sense. Your interpretation turns the entire PT into a jumbled mess that makes no sense in the larger context of the films just so to preserve the idea that Mace is a badass. This is silly. The interpretation that makes the most sense in the greater context in the Saga is what I'm arguing. Palpatine set up the fight, he knew what was coming, he had certain goals for setting up that fight, he achieved all those goals. All this shows that Palpatine was manipulating the situation. That's a great interpretation for the Saga. Palpatine is a master manipulator. And how does he convert the Chosen One to a Sith? By being a master manipulator, and not by being really, really lucky.

Anakin could've fulfilled the prophecy by siding with Mace, but he didn't because Palpatine tricked him by playing on his loyalties and his compassion. This is what makes Anakin's story a tragedy, and Anakin suffered the consequences for being tricked in this manner for the next 20 years until Luke was willing to sacrifice himself, which ultimately stirred enough compassion in Anakin to break the hold of the dark side. Premeditatedly and manipulatively, Palpatine used Anakin's compassion for him and his wife against him. Decades later, Anakin's son, Luke, without any intention of manipulation, refused to kill his father out of genuine compassion and genuine loyalty to his ideals, and that act saved Anakin. Lucas has said that he intentionally created these parallels. Palpatine's scheming manipulation of Anakin's compassion and love led to Anakin's downfall and Luke's genuine love and compassion saved his father. Your interpretation takes some of deepest, most poignant aspects of the Saga and reduces it to who is tougher in a fight. Star Wars has never been about who is tougher -- Palpatine or Mace, Hulk or Thor, Godzilla or King Kong. The most important moments in Star Wars are filled with mythological and thematic importance. Your view of things totally misses this bigger picture.

 

But with Palpatine would you say WITHOUT Darth Plagueis's help or anyone to help him - would he have still been able to achieve a level of Power that he was destined to be? Or at best he could rise to be a crime lord or local politician but no where near what would be destined to be?

Also with Mace Windu - but for all his Power and such - WHY is it he wasn't able to apply Tutaminis when Palpatine blasted him with a full vamp of Sith Lightning? Its like almost every victim of Palpatine's Sith Lightning was practically helpless; only Master Yoda and well Galen Marek could apply Tutaminis to counter him although not easily as Master Yoda too also had to concentrate quite a bit whereas Galen Marek felt as if a star was burning right in his heart...

 

George Lucas has openly stated himself that Mace legitimately won the fight. This was the moment that Palpatine was almost killed. There is no evidence, anywhere, in anything that is shown on screen, that Palpatine "deliberately lost." The movie doesn't show that. TRUST what the movie shows you,.

It's clearly implied in the prequels trilogy that Mace and Yoda are the two most important Jedi, and are the equals of each other.

Yoda was also pummelled by the Sith lightning in Palpatine's quarters the first time it was used on him. Mace was able to deflect the Sith lightning straight away the first time it was used on him. Regardless, none of that has got anything to do with the topic, of whether Palpatine deliberately lost.

It's not clear at all. Palpatine knew he would have to reveal himself sooner or later, but he didn't want to physically confront the Jedi himself if he could avoid it. That's what order 66 was for. For all Palpatine knew, Mace could have brought 100 Jedi back from all over the galaxy, instead of three.

To gain Anakin's trust. He was also hoping that Anakin would join him right then and there. It would have made Palpatine's job a lot easier.

He doesn't know who will be coming at all. There is no evidence in the film of that. The fact that some Jedi are off-world is irrelevant, because all Mace would have to do is send out a message to all the Jedi that Palpatine was the Sith Lord, and they would all come back from their mission. After all, finding out that Palpatine is Sidious is more important than the war, right? They all come back via hyperspace travel in a matter of minutes/hours and confront Sidious. How did Palpatine know Mace wasn't going to do that and bring back 1000 Jedi from across the galaxy? He could have.

He thinks he can defend himself against them when they arrive. That's why he tries to kill all of them and succeeds in killing three. He WANTS to kill Mace as well, but is unable to initially because Mace is such a powerful Jedi. Why would he not want to kill Mace straight away, as you imply? His plan to turn Anakin to the dark side would still work.

Look at this scenario: Palpatine kills Mace in combat. Anakin comes into the room and sees the 4 dead jedi. Palpatine says, "Anakin, the Jedi are taking over. They tried to kill me. I had to defend myself." Which, is actually true.

Anakin is worried that Palpatine was nearly killed, because he sees Palpatine as the only answer to saving his wife. Anakin joins the dark side anyway to save his wife, and the rest of the movie happens just as it originally happened.

So, why in the name of God would Palpatine lose on purpose to Mace, when Anakin was going to turn to the dark side to save his wife anyway? Anakin didn't need to strike Mace to turn to the dark side. It was a choice he made to save his wife - a choice he was going to make anyway. He only struck Mace because he thought Palpatine was going to die. Anakin's motivation for saving his wife (i.e joining the dark side) remain the same whether Mace was alive or not, so there was no reason for Palpatine to deliberately lose.

Palpatine can't plan things that exactly. It's just stupid to think he could. You probably think he could plan his farts 8 years in advance too.

It's clear from the fight, anyway, that Palaptine was legitimately disarmed. You see him rush back to the corner, coward-like, on his back as Mace has the lightsaber pointed at him. If that was Palpatine's plan, then Palpatine is an idiot.

He was gaining Anakin's trust. And I'm sure Palpatine probably thought he COULD take all 4 Jedi. Obviously he couldn't, because Mace defeated him. Palpatine misjudged his abilities. He killed three Jedi, but couldn't defeat Mace, because Mace was one of the two strongest Jedi in the galaxy. He tried to kill Mace, and his plan to take over the galaxy still would have transpired had Mace been killed in genuine combat. This is why we KNOW he didn't lose on purpose. He was legitimately bested by Mace, and George Lucas has said so himself.

On point 1.), Palpatine doesn't need Mace to be alive to convert Anakin, because Anakin will join the dark side to save his wife regardless . If Mace was dead when Anakin walked into the room, then Palpatine already has a motive for the Jedi Purge, which explains point 2.) He can say to Anakin that he had to kill four Jedi because they came to kill him. Anakin still thinks he needs Palpatine's dark side power to save his wife. Why does Mace being alive create more of a motive for the Jedi Purge than Mace being dead? The motive for the Jedi Purge is there regardless. That's why we KNOW that Mace legitimately defeated Palpatine.

He could say the same thing to Anakin if he was able to kill Mace straight away. That's how we KNOW Mace legitimately disarmed Palpatine. Palpatine did NOT lose on purpose.

It's called drama, and it's what movie-makers put into their plot to make an interesting fictional story.

The Jedi fight wasn't set-up to convert Anakin. The conversation at the theatre about the dark side was set-up to convert Anakin. Palpatine had to convince Anakin that the dark-side was the only way he could save his wife. Mace didn't need to be alive for Anakin to seek this power. If Mace was already dead, Anakin would clearly have used Palaptine's knowledge and joined him. He was doing it all for his wife.

Anakin even says, "what have I done?" upon striking Mace. Anakin knows he's doing the wrong thing, so the act of striking down Mace wasn't in itself, the turn to the dark side. He only struck down Mace impulsively because if he didn't, he thought his wife was going to die. Had Mace already been dead, Anakin's motivation for seeking the dark side from Palpatine to save his wife remain the same.

It's clear from the dead Jedi in the room, that Palpatine killed them, so it was obvious that Palpatine wasn't defenceless. Anakin also watched Palpatine use Sith lightning on Windu (which was deflected back into his face). Hardly the act of a defenceless president of the galaxy. And besides, Anakin KNEW already that he was a Sith Lord.

The fact is that Palpatine wanted to kill Mace straight away if he could. It would make his plan a hell of a lot easier, with much less risk. If Mace is killed straight away, Anakin still turns to the dark side, and the Jedi still get wiped out. If his plan was to keep Mace alive so that mace has his lightsaber pointed at his throat, then Sidious is truly an idiot. A monumental idiot. What kind of idiot would put themselves in that situation deliberately? Especially, when you look at what would have happened if Mace was killed straight away - everything still goes to plan anyway.

Anakin knows Mace isn't a traitor. For crying out loud, Anakin went to Mace to tell him the truth. Anakin uses the "Jedi traitor" lie as a means to justify his actions. Anakin's true motivations are to save his wife, and he thinks the dark side power he is using will help do that.

And besides, if there were 4 dead Jedi in the room (including Mace) when Anakin arrived, the whole "Jedi traitor" story still stands anyway. Palaptine could claim to the Senate that the Jedi tried to kill him. Which is true. Mace didn't need to be alive to paint the Jedi as traitors.

It's called destiny. Anakin will eventually fulfil the prophecy by killing the Sith. And he eventually does in Return Of The Jedi. But HOW he will fulfill the prophecy is not pre-determined. It is only pre-determined that he will. Palpatine, with all the arrogance of a evil leader thinks if he can turn Anakin to a Sith, then he can alter the prophecy and stop it from coming true. Palpatine might not even believe the prophecy. Yoda even says that the prophecy might have been mis-read. We don't know if the prophecy is true or not. No one knows until it has been fulfilled.

But all of that has nothing to do with whether Palpatine deliberately lost. Palpatine was aiming to kill Mace himself and turn Anakin to the dark side, by using a lie about using the dark side to save his wife. He didn't need to lose deliberately to Mace for that to happen

What motivates Anakin to convert is the prospect of saving his wife's life if he joins the dark side. Whether Mace was alive or dead doesn't change that.

Acting like a moron would be deliberately losing a fight to Mace and risking your own life when Anakin was going to seek the dark side power anyway. That would be a monumentally stupid thing to do. Fortunately, Palpatine doesn't do this. He tries to defeat Mace and tries to kill him. Mace, however is too strong, and disarms Palpatine. George Lucas has SAID that Mace won the battle (before Anakin intervened)

We don't know if the prophecy is true, and if it is true, we don't know HOW it will be fulfilled. Assuming it is true (which it is) all we know is that Anakin will fulfill the prophecy. We don't know when and we don't know how. Mace could have killed Sidious, another Sith Lord could come into power 30 years later and Anakin kills that Sith for all we know, and fulfils the prophecy that way. The details of the prophecy are vague. There is no timeline on it, and there is no mention of WHO the Sith Lord is that will be killed to fulfil the prophecy.

NO. My interpretation is what we see on screen. Your interpretation is a made-up mess that we don't see on screen. Your interpretation makes Palpatine look like an idiot, who deliberately loses a fight to endanger his own life when Anakin was going to turn to the dark side anyway. TRUST what the movie shows you. TRUST what George Lucas told you. Stop inventing your own interpretation which is NOT what is shown in the movie. Trust what the movie shows you.

He was faking weakness and holding back ONCE ANAKIN ENTERED THE ROOM, because by this stage he had already been defeated by Mace Windu. He clearly wasn't holding back before this, because he was able to kill three Jedi.

He tried frying Mace to death with Sith lightning before this but Mace was able to deflect it with his lightsaber. Only when Mace had one arm was the Sith lightning able to break his defences.

From the Revenge Of The Sith visual dictionary, an arrow pointing to his face saying "face deformed by Sith lightning".... what we SEE on screen is Palpatine having Sith Lightning deflected into his face and we see his face changing as this happens. There is some contradictory canon material regarding the topic of Palpatine's appearance. Some canon material says his face was deformed by Sith lightning, while other material says the Sith lightning unmasked his true form. I think it is more logical that the sith lightning causes his grotesque appearance because that is what the movie SHOWS us. We SEE Sith lightning being deflected into his face, and obviously that is going to change his appearance.

TRUST what the movie shows you.

 

Palpatine can't plan things that exactly. It's just stupid to think he could. You probably think he could plan his farts 8 years in advance too.
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got to admit, this made me chuckle

 

Darth Nerdling, I was enjoying this debate. Now you have ended it . I agree with everything you have said. That is what George Lucas created and intended us to follow. It's unfortunate that some can't see the bigger picture. I don't know why that is. Some fans of Ronda Rousey still want to believe she defeated Holly Holm.
Palpatine had set up the entire fight to turn Anakin into his new apprentice. Windu was silly enough to walk into the trap. Palpatine planned everything inch perfect (yes he was that brilliant). Windu with the help of 3 Jedi Masters failed to defeat 1 Sith Lord. Palpatine defeated and killed all 4 Sith Lords in the 1 battle, That is the bigger picture, that is what we should trust the movie showing us. I'm glad you and I can watch the movie, the way the creator intended it to be watched.

 

George Lucas has SAID that Mace legitimately defeated Palpatine before Anakin arrived. This debate was over years ago, but you fools are still clinging onto some odd theory that wasn't shown on screen.

Palpatine did not set up the fight to turn Anakin. Palpatine wanted and planned for Anakin to turn to the dark side two scenes earlier when he revealed himself as the Sith Lord and said to Anakin, "Use my knowledge, I beg you." Sidious wanted Anakin to turn here. He then could have ordered order 66, and not had to deal with 4 Jedi coming to his office to kill him, one of whom was the second greatest living Jedi. Palaptine also planted the seeds of Anakin's turn at the opera. The fight with Mace Windu was something that Palpatine would have obviously preferred to have avoided.

Anakin had already committed in his mind to using the dark side to save Padme. Palpatine didn't need to orchestrate a situation where he deliberately lost to make this happen. If Anakin entered the room, and Mace Windu was already dead, then he would STILL seek the dark side knowledge from Sidious to save his wife. Imagine it: Anakin enters the room. The 4 Jedi are already dead. Sidious says to Anakin, truthfully that they were trying to kill him. This portrays the Jedi as traitors to the Senate. Anakin knows that if Sidious dies, the knowedge to save his wife goes with him, so he commits to the dark side anyway to save his wife. So why deliberately lose?

So, why in the hell would an idiotic Palpatine put himself in idiotic danger, but idiotically losing on purpose, when he could idiotically be killed, when Anakin is going to turn to the dark side no matter what? What if Mace Windu called 1,000 Jedi back from the war, from all over the galaxy to come to Palpatine's office? How did Palaptine know he was only bringing four? None of that was part of Palpatine's plan - that was why he created order 66. So he wouldn't have to get his own hands dirty if he could avoid it. The fact is that Mace legitimately beat Palpatine and George Lucas said so. ACCEPT IT, and trust what the movies SHOWS you,

Are you telling me that two scenes earlier when he implored Anakin, to "Use my knowedge I beg you", he was actually planning for Anakin to say "no" there. That was his grand plan, according to you? Haha. For Anakin to say, no firstly, then yes later on? That's a pretty stupid plan. Why wouldn't the plan for Anakin to say yes straight away during the hallway reveal? But you say that even though he implores Anakin to turn to the dark side in the hallway, he plans for him to say no, only to plan for him to say yes two scenes later? You must think Palpatine is an idiot. And as I said, you must think he can plan his own farts years ahead if you believe that. What if Anakin had said yes in the hallway?

Do you could also believe Obi wan faked his KO against Dooku so he could test if Anakin would be strong enough?

The other Jedi were killed quickly because they're non-characters, no-one cares about them. Mace is the only character who was in the story. Mace won the battle, by overpowering Sidious. That's what George Lucas said and that's what the movies shows us. The reason Anakin walks in at the exact moment that Windu corners Palpatine is purely for movie-making reasons. It was the best time for Anakin to enter the room, in order for the scene to progress at the best possible pace. Do you think Lucas would have Mace threaten Palpatine for 3 minutes while Anakin is still on his way? It's a movie. Its fiction.

 

I think this is the most pivotal part in the discussion that ends the debate and proves there was absolutely no way windu stood a chance against Palps. Also Palps only used his lightsabre against windu, to keep windu alive long enough for Anakin to turn up. Otherwise Palps would've killed windu in an instant with lightning. All the dialogue between Anakin and Palps that lead to, and during this fight, is what we are meant to trust the movie is showing us. That is what the creator wanted us to see. For windu to not be able to touch Palps, when Palps is fighting 4 Jedi Masters at the same time, and for Palps to defeat all 4 Jedi Masters in the battle shows how superior Palps truly is both physically and intellectually. When Lucas says Palps is faking weakness, this proves once again how brilliant Palps is.

 

It's not the most pivotal part of the discussion at all. In fact, it's irrelevant. The fact that Sidious was faking weakness AFTER he was defeated by Mace is irrelevant to this debate. We know he was faking weakness AFTER he was defeated. That's accepted fact and is shown on the screen. The question is did he deliberately put himself in the compromising position he was in unarmed with a lightsaber at his throat? NO, he didn't. He'd be an idiot to do that.

Why in the hell would he do that deliberately, when Anakin was going to turn to the dark side anyway to save his wife? Why? Why would he do that when he would be risking his own life in doing so. If Anakin walked in and Palpatine had already killed Mace (which was what he was trying to do), then the Jedi are still portrayed to the Senate as traitors. Anakin still wants Palpatine's dark side power to save his wife. Anakin turns to the dark side anyway.

You don't get this. You refuse to "get" it. and you refuse to use common-sense.

Palpatine was disarmed by Windu. Why would Palaptine plan that, if Anakin was going to seek the dark side power to save his wife no matter what?

Why would palpatine plan to deliberately lose when it was possible that Mace could have brought in 1,000 Jedi from all over the galaxy back from the war to confront Sidious instead of only 4. Palpatine had no control whatsoever over how many Jedi were coming to his office. He couldn't plan that.

Why would he plan to deliberately lose to Mace when two scenes earlier he implored Anakin to turn to the dark side in the hallway reveal. What if Anakin had said yes then? He didn't know Anakin would say no. Palpatine would have hoped he would say yes, and turn to the dark side right then and there.

Yes, the creator shows us Palaptine two scenes earlier imploring Anakin to join the dark side. Anakin could have said yes right then and there which would have made Palpatine's job easier. That's what the movie shows us. There is no evidence that Palaptines "planned" for Anakin to say "No" to joining the dark side in the hallway scene only to say "Yes" to joining the dark side in the fight scene. Obviously Palpatine wanted Anakin to say "Yes" straight away in the hallway scene. He didn't know Anakin was going to say "no" then because it wasn't up to Palaptine.

Yes, he is faking weakness AFTER he has been defeated in the duel by Windu. He didn't deliberately lose, he was legitimately beaten in the duel by Windu and George Lucas said so himself. What is clear is Mace kicked Sidious in the face, seen on screen, clear as crystal

From George Lucas himself:

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

The part that George Lucas added with Sidious faking weakenss was AFTER he was overpowered by Mace Windu, where, as Lucas says, Anakin wants him to go on trial, only so he can get information about the dark side powers to save his wife. That's from George Lucas himself.

The actual lightsaber duel itself was always designed to be Mace Windu overpowering Palpatine. That's what happened in the movie, that's what George Lucas said himself, that is what is shown on screen. The debate is over. GET OVER IT, and accept what the movie shows you, instead of inventing a fictional alternate reality that the movie doesn't show you.


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Exactly, Palps knew Anakin was on his way, and he kept mace alive because he needed Anakin to commit an act against mace (the Jedi) to become a Sith Lord. Yep, Palps needed the sympathy from Anakin, that's why Palps didn't kill mace straight away, and that is why he was faking weakness. Palps had planned this well in advance. That's why a lot of the Jedi Masters were on missions on other planets. Everything that happened was according to Palps design. That's why mace never stood a chance. Even if we entertain the idea mace defeated Palps... Why didn't Palps just turn the lightning on him? Better yet, why even fight him with a lightsabre and hit him with lightning from the beginning? This proves as you said earlier that there is a bigger picture, that is quite apparent to most viewers. Unless we are watching the alternate cut of the film .

Definitely no luck involved, everything that happened went according to Palps plan. George Lucas' filming in this part was brilliant in the way Palps defeated mace and used mace as the catalyst to turn Anakin to the darkside. The way he deliberately kept mace alive, because it was mace who always never trusted and was always arrogant to Anakin. Sheer brilliance on the part of Palpatine and the creator Lucas

 

I don't know if Mace was defeating Palpatine. He was capable of doing it. Just as Palpatine was capable of defeating him. I think it is a question that can never be answered.

Palpatine didn't really know that. He was making a gamble.

 

Well, I'm not going to get into an argument with you, Dan, because you're acting rudely, so I'll just make this response, and you can feel happy about having the last word. I think you've made some false assumptions in your statements.

You keep saying that Mace might have brought 100 instead of 3 Jedi. Now we already have been shown that virtually all Jedi are off planet. That's why they are all holograms in the Jedi Counsel meetings, and then Obi and Yoda leave. So, there aren't 100 Jedi he could bring, but imagine if it is possible for Mace to bring 100 Jedi. Well, that would mean Palpatine is just sitting there waiting in his office without any protection when a 100 Jedi might come to kill him or arrest him. Palpatine is a brilliant man. The films establish that. It's very, very, very stupid to wait in your office unprotected if it is possible that 100 Jedi might come to kill or arrest you. The film has shown that virtually every Jedi is acting as a general and virtually all the top Jedi are gone. Plus, Palpatine isn't an idiot. So, you have to conclude that Palpatine knew that Mace would bring a force that he knew he could beat. Palpatine would act otherwise if it was possible for Mace to bring a force he couldn't beat.

You keep saying that Palpatine didn't need to lose to convert Anakin because Anakin would convert otherwise and you also say that Palpatine (if he was able) would have killed all 4 of them and then been able to convince Anakin based on the dead Jedi that they were traitorous. The film shows this isn't true. Palpatine tells Anakin that the Sith can save Padme, and then he admits that he's a Sith. That doesn't convert Anakin. Anakin doesn't even say "Give me time to think about this." He goes straight to Mace to report that he's a Sith. Then Anakin walks in and sees Mace sticking a saber at Palpatine who doesn't seem to be armed and Palpatine tells him: "You see. The Jedi are traitors." But even this isn't enough to turn Anakin. He learns that the Jedi are acting like traitors but he refuses to intervene. If learning that they were traitors were enough, he would've chopped off Mace's hand right away. The only thing that turns Anakin is seeing Palpatine appearing to be on the edge of death. At that point, after Palpatine says -- "You must choose" -- Anakin realizes he has to choose right then and he chooses saving his wife over Mace. So, Palpatine appearing to be near the brink of death is integral to the plan. Palpatine tried appealing to Anakin rationally by telling him he can save his wife and that didn't work. He tried tricking Anakin into thinking the Jedi were traitors and that didn't work. So, he's forced to trick Anakin into thinking that that the Mace is about to kill him to turn Anakin.

You say above that Palpatine only reveals to Anakin that he's a Sith to convince Anakin to trust him. That may play a part. However, it's clear that from the dialogue that Palpatine has a greater motive. Palpatine says to him that Anakin doesn't trust the Jedi (i.e. thinks they may be traitorous) and Anakin's response is: "I will learn the truth of all this." (i.e. I will figure out if they are traitors). Then Palpatine tells him: "You have great wisdom." That's why Anakin wants to go along with Mace when they go arrest Palpatine. Anakin wants to learn the "truth of" whether they are traitors are not. So, this is Palpatine setting up the scene. Palps: "Hey Anakin, these guys are traitors." Anakin: "That's possible. I'll look into that." Then, when Anakin returns, he sees what appears to be Mace, the 2nd most senior Jedi, traitorously pointing his Saber at a man with no weapon, which is exactly what Palpatine wanted Anakin to see, and Palpatine "just happened" to be disarmed an instant before Anakin entering the room, and Palpatine can sense Anakin, and all of this just happened by total luck?. Palpatine gets exactly what he wants at the exact time he would want it just by sheer luck? That is way, way, way too convenient.

You keep asking why would Palpatine put himself at risk by losing to Mace (in the duel). You're being biased by your point of view. Palpatine is not at risk. You associate Palpatine losing his weapon to losing, but that's not losing for a Sith. Palpatine can still defend himself with his Force lightning, which is more than enough to hold off Mace. (In fact the novelization, which Lucas gave a line by line edit, states that Palpatine stops blasting him the instant before Mace couldn't take it anymore.) Palpatine was disarmed when fighting Yoda. That didn't stop Palpatine from defeating Yoda. He simply blasted the light saber out of Yoda's hands and Yoda has a higher midichlorian count, so disarming Yoda would be harder than disarming Mace (and don't judge Yoda by his size). In fact, he disarms Yoda quite easily. Yoda is holding the saber with 1 hand, Palpatine shoots a very concentrated blast of lightning and off the saber flies. Mace is also holding the saber in 1 hand when he starts deflecting the lightning and Palpatine could've just as easily blasted it away as how he did with Yoda. He didn't because he chose not to. Palpatine isn't losing at all. He's not defenseless just because he's lost his saber. He could fry Mace as long as he wants and Palpatine only relents when Mace gets too tired. Palpatine is not in danger. The lightning arcing back is not hurting him. As Lucas says, he is only faking weakness. It is only revealing Palpatine's true appearance. Lucas has multiple quotes saying that that is Palpatine's true appearance. Luke wasn't deformed when he was being fried. Palpatine is just allowing his false appearance to fade to trick Anakin into believing he's in danger when he's not. It also serves as great evidence that the Jedi tried to kill him which he presents to the Senate. It's also clear that Palpatine hasn't really run out of gas. The second Anakin chops off Mace's hand, Palpatine starts frying him full force again. As Lucas says, he was only pretending to be powerless. He could've kept blasting Mace if he wanted. He didn't have to sit there helplessly (pretending to be defenseless). He simply turns off the juice to force Anakin to choose and Anakin wouldn't have made that choice without Palpatine creating this elaborate scenario to play on his sympathies.

You say that the fight wasn't set up to convert Anakin. You're ignoring what I've already pointed out. Palpatine encouraged Anakin to tell the Jedi that he's a Sith, and Anakin reveals in that scene that he doesn't trust the Jedi. Anakin says that he'll soon discover the truth, and Palpatine tells him he has great wisdom. So, at that point, Palpatine knows that the Jedi are coming for him. Why does he wait there for them? He would just take off or get 1000 clone troopers to defend him. He doesn't because he wants this confrontation to occur, and the reason he wants it to occur is he needs to play on Anakin's sympathies to convert him (since Anakin doesn't convert when he learns Palpatine can save his wife and he doesn't even convert when he realizes that the Jedi are traitorous; at that point Palpatine has to make it look like his own life is in danger.) Anakin wants to accompany Mace because he wants to see if the Jedi will act traitorously or not. Palpatine doesn't take off or doesn't call in 1000 clonetroopers because he wants there to be a confrontation.

You keep saying that Palpatine would've preferred for Anakin to convert in the hallway scene. Yes, that's true. However, Anakin rejects it. For that reason, Palpatine's next move is plan B -- to create a scenario where the Jedi appear like traitors, and when that isn't enough, he creates a scenario in which it appears that he is about to die, forcing Anakin to act. If Palpatine had converted Anakin in the hallway scene, he wouldn't have had to turn to plan B, and the confrontation never would have encountered. Palpatine only moves on to plan B after plan A fails.

Now finally this quote: "Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

This quote is only referring to the saber duel, not what comes after it, and it is also misinterpreted. Lucas has said multiple times that he wants to leave what happens between Mace and Palpatine to audience interpretation. If he's providing the "answer" here, then the audience can't do that. That shows that Lucas isn't answering that question here. What Lucas is doing here is comparing the final version of this scene to an earlier version of the scene. He is only describing what people see/would have seen. This part is then same. This part is different. Initially he's not talking about ulterior motives. For instance, on other occasions, Lucas describes Grievous as kidnapping Palpatine. Kidnapping is taking someone against their will. If we were to take Lucas's words about Grievous on face value (as you do), then that would mean that Palpatine doesn't want to be kidnapped by Grievous and that he is unable to resist him. That totally contradicts what's going on: Palpatine wants it be appear as if he's been kidnapped, Grievous is not in on the plan, and Palpatine could easily destroy Grievous in an instant if he wants to, but if we went your route of not recognizing subtext, then we'd have to believe that Palpatine doesn't want to be kidnapped by Grievous and he is helpless to prevent it, all because Lucas has said: "Grievous kidnapped Palpatine." The same situation is occurring here. Lucas is simply describing on a surface level what you see here compared to what you would have seen in his earlier version of the scene. He's not getting into what's occurring behind the scenes and how Palpatine is manipulating the situation. Again, Lucas has said many times he wants to leave this issue (who wins the duel) open to audience interpretation, so he's not offering the solution here. He is simply being descriptive here, not interpretative.

However, what's more important is that the fight isn't over just because Palpatine has lost his weapon. Palpatine loses his weapon against Yoda and he is fully able to defend himself and then wins their battle (or at best for Yoda it's a draw). Palpatine is fully able to defend himself here as well. He is not being hurt by the lightning arcing back. He is pretending to be weak, and the lightning is only revealing Palpatine's true form. He doesn't have to stop blasting Mace. He is successfully keeping Mace at bay with his lightning and he could continue doing that. He just pretends to lose his power. In fact, he lets up the instant Mace is about to give in, according to the novel which Lucas gave a line-by-line edit. (It's author said everything within it should be considered canon since Lucas edited it so thoroughly.) What you're seeing here is a deception. Palpatine is not hurt or weakened at all; his power is not sapped and he can continue blasting Mace as long as he wants (in fact, he can probably disarm Mace just as he did with Yoda). Palpatine does not stop blasting Mace because he can't keep doing it any longer. Quite the opposite, he stops blasting Mace because Mace is an instant away from giving in.

So, even if Mace legitimately did win the duel (which is an interpretation that I disagree with because that makes Mace a credible threat to Palpatine, which means Palpatine is a moron for not avoiding a conflict he could've easily avoided, and that means he just happens to lose the duel an instant before Anakin enters the room, which is an incredible incredible coincidence, creating to the perfect scenario to paint the Jedi as traitors), but even if Mace legitimately won the duel, that doesn't matter. Palpatine is fully able to protect himself with his Force lightning and Lucas makes it clear that he could continue defending himself with it for as long as he wants (and the film even implies that he could disarm him, as he disarmed the more powerful Jedi Yoda with it). It's clear that Palpatine could keep defending himself because Lucas says he's only pretending to lose power, and so, if he didn't pretend to lose power, he could continue blasting away at Mace as long as he likes because that lightning arcing back isn't hurting him. He's just pretending to be weak. Finally, the film makes it clear that Palpatine is just pretending to lose power because the instant Mace is disarmed, Palpatine bursts back to life and fries Mace full force.

Now, I'm not going to be responding anymore since you've been rude in your posts. I think if you want to continue believing that Mace won the duel, then you have a weak argument for that but at least something (weak in the sense that it creates a huge coincidence and makes Palpatine look dumb). However, there is no legitimate argument that Palpatine wasn't fully able to defend himself after he was disarmed. That's abundantly clear. In fact, I should really say believe whatever you want. I don't care. If you want to keep on interpreting the film this way, go ahead. You can have whatever opinion you want, but you really should stop trying to convince other people that their differing interpretation of this scene is wrong. The facts just don't support it.

 

Is this still going on ? Just because you like Sidious or Vader, doesn't mean you should disregard what they showed you, and this thing is still going on because some people can't deal with the fact that Sidious would lose a battle, in their mind Sidious can't lose no matter what, because he is Vader's master, this is a wild Sidious / Vader fanboyism, which is nonsense.

If you like a character, then just accept it with their mistakes as well, no one is perfect.

 

It doesn't get any more clearer than that.

Dan2626 was being incredibly rude to both of us. So we gave him the respect his behaviour deserved.
So it's only the people who can't deal with the fact that Sidious would lose a battle that are keeping this going? Wow, ok. To clear this up, both Darth Nerdling and myself believe Palpatine lost the battle - He deliberately lost the battle, because the entire fight was orchestrated to turn Anakin to the darkside - he needed mace alive to accomplish this.
Btw, it's not fanboyism nonsense. Sidious was never defeated. Sidious is the greatest

 

Then you're overrating Anakin either, Sidious wanted Anakin, but not more than risking his life in the battle, that's not the sith way. Sidious would never and ever risk his life for his any apprentice, he is that kind of man. Sidious didn't orhestrate the fight either, Mace did, Mace decided it and said to Anakin that stay in the Jedi Council room until we return, Sidious didn't decide to that, Mace did, Mace also decided to take 3 Jedi Master with him, he could take it more, or he could take it less, he decided it, not Sidious.

 

But Sids knew Anakin went back to the Jedi. Why he would just sit there by himself if it was risky?

 

He read the script?
If I work with the film then Palpatine would probably be aware if Mace had issued a call to other Jedi and asked them to come back to Coruscant. If that happened then he would alter his plans. Like making sure he had loads of soldiers nearby or pull order 66 early.
He probably figured that Mace alone or with 2-3 other Jedi was something he could take if they came after him directly.
I do think that the film shows him loosing the fight. I think he did try to kill Mace earlier in the fight and a dead Mace would not harm his plans. He could still get Anakin to go along with the promise to save Padme. I think him throwing the fight and risk getting killed is more risky than simply killing Mace if he could.

Then again, Palpatine arranged to have himself kidnapped and sit in the middle of a huge battle and with every risk that the ship could get shot at and blown up. That was very risky and also rather unnecessary. He could have gotten Dooku to fight Anakin is far less risky situations.

Overall the writing does suffer a bit here in my opinion.
Anakin thinking about a Jedi plot worked until he found out that Palaptine was a Sith. Then he knows that the Jedi had every reason to be worried and that Palpatine was behind the war and all other bad things that had happened. Anakin wanted very much to arrest Palpatine and went to Mace and told him.
Had Anakin been allowed to come along, what then? Would Palpatine still attack?
If Anakin sees the Jedi killed before him, might he not join the fight?

Mace is made quite stupid in the film, he should at least have contacted Yoda and some other Jedi and tell them. And warn them that the clones are not to be trusted. And he should have questioned Anakin a bit more closely.

The way the other three Jedi died also didn't look good. Instead of Palpatine looking good, they looked inept and they seemed to use the ancient Jedi technique of "Standing there and letting your opponent kill you."

Anakin saw Mace try to arrest Palpatine and Palpatine resist arrest by using force-Lightning.
So Anakin knows that Mace tried to arrest Palpatine, he heard him say that. Mace then changes his tune but his reason makes little sense. "He controls the senate and the courts"? You knew that when you went to arrest him earlier, so what has changed?

I can see that Anakin stops Mace from killing Palpatine so that Padme might live. But that he suddenly comes back to the Jedi plot doesn't work. There was no plot and Anakin knew it.
But the plot needs Anakin to be stupid and so he is.
And he doesn't even react when Palpatine more or less admits that he doesn't know how to save Padme and just hopes that they can work it out together.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I feel like it makes more sense for Palpatine to have thrown the fight. The only quote from Lucas that I am aware of is Lucas saying something about Mace overpowering Palpatine on the film's audio commentary.

But to me, regardless of whether or not Mace "legitimately" won, I feel like the story doesn't make sense unless Palpatine was pulling his punches.

To me, Anakin HAD to be there for Palpatine's plan to work. So even if Palpatine unexpectedly took a boot to the face, he was not trying to kill Mace. He needed Mace alive, at least until Anakin showed up. He may have sensed Anakin arriving and threw the fight so that he'd look like the victim, or maybe that was unexpected and Palpatine was caught off guard, but either way, I feel like Palpatine was stalling the fight for Anakin.

Exhibit A

Palpatine tries to run from Yoda. His life is in danger and there's no advantage to risking everything in a fight. That fight was also unexpected.

But with Mace, Palpatine KNEW a confrontation was coming. He knew Anakin was going to tell the Jedi Council that Palpatine was a Sith. He let Anakin do this, he did not execute Order 66, he did not run. He did nothing to stand in the way of Anakin doing this. He waited in his office for the Jedi to come to him and took them all head on as opposed to running.

This tells me that he had something to gain from this confrontation, and that unlike with the fight with Yoda, he was not afraid and felt in control.

EXhibit B

Palpatine needs to sell Anakin on the idea that the Jedi are in the wrong and staging a coup. He puts the idea in Anakin's head that the Jedi putting Anakin in a position to spy on Palpatine is indicative that they don't respect democracy and are plotting to betray him.

When Anakin says he is going to turn Palpatine over, Palpatine remarks on Anakin's uncertainty regarding their intentions. Had Anakin showed up to Palpatine's office and Mace and the others were all dead, what good would that have served? It just would have made him look like a murderer. What's he going to say, that they attempted a coup and Anakin just wasn't there to see it? He needed Mace in a position where he was going to kill Palpatine to show that the Jedi were doing the "wrong" thing and compromising their ideals.

Anakin had just found out that Palpatine had orchestrated the entire war. Mace was close to trusting Anakin. Had all these Jedi been dead before Anakin arrived, Palpatine would just appear 100% in the wrong. He wanted Anakin to believe there was a coup, that the Jedi were corrupt, and that Anakin risked losing the ability to save Padme because Mace and the Order had gone against the Jedi way.

 

But there are problems here.
1) What would Palpatine do if Anakin had been with Mace from the start?
Mace was there to arrest Palpatine, which Anakin was all for.
Would Palpatine still attack? Would Anakin not react to that? That he sees Palpatine attack and kill three Jedi while he is standing there.

2) What would he do if Mace brought more Jedi, say Yoda and Obi-Wan and Anakin?

3) If Mace brought some senators to witness that the arrest was according to the rules. Would he still attack?

Also, at what stage did Palpatine "sense" Anakin. Before he even drew his ligthsabre?
During the later stages of the fight? If yes then did he try to kill Mace earlier and failing?

What would make sense and I figured he did this even tough the movie doesn't show it, that he had cameras there to film Mace and co coming in and being all aggressive. Then he switches them off before he attacks.

This gets him evidence of Jedi hostility. But nothing here suggest that he threw the fight with Mace or that he had planned to do that all along. He wanted the Jedi to come after him, to make them look aggressive and film them. Once that was done, he could kill them all and I think he tried exactly that.

But as I said above, the whole "Jedi coup" plot falls as soon as Anakin finds out that Palpatine is Sidious. Then he knows that the war is fake, that Palpatine was Dooku's master, that Palpatine is the once trying to seize power, that he is a traitor.
Before that, yes Anakin didn't like being told to spy on the chancellor, he viewed him as a friend, as a good man doing what was necessary to end the war. Now Anakin knows that the war was Palpatine's doing all along. That he has lied and manipulated many and caused the deaths of thousands of not millions in the war. Now he knows that the Jedi were totally justified in wanting to spy on the chancellor because he was a Sith Lord and a traitor.

I can buy that Anakin cares only about Padme and sides with Palpatine for that reason alone. The whole "coup" thing doesn't work.
That is the reason why Anakin turns and to me the film should have stuck to that idea. That Anakin doesn't think that the Jedi are pulling some coup but that Padme is more important. So if he has to kill Jedi babies then he will kill Jedi babies if that saves Padme. That Anakin suddenly believes this "coup" again after he knows that there was no such thing is poor writing as it makes Anakin into a moron.

But this is pretty much what happens anyway. Anakin knows that Mace and three others leave to ARREST Palpatine. Then he arrives and finds only Mace, signs of a fight and Mace again trying to ARREST Palpatine. What happened to the other three Jedi? It would not be hard for Anakin to figure out the obvious, Palpatine killed them. And Anakin sees Palpatine trying to KILL Mace, Palpatine even says it "You will DIE!" So Anakin knows that Palpatine has violently resisted arrest, killed three other Jedi and tries to kill Mace. And this is apparently not a problem. So why would four dead Jedi be a problem?

[/QUOTE]

As I said above, Anakin KNOWS that Palpatine is the big villain, the one that has caused all of this. He has lied, cheated and manipulated himself into a position of power, power even Anakin admits he will not give up. Anakin KNOWS all this. So he has no reason at all to believe this Jedi-plot idea at this stage. What he sees is Mace going against the Jedi code and trying to kill a person that is violently resisting arrest and has killed three other Jedi.

Yes I can buy that Anakin resents Mace and always has. That he doesn't like him, that Mace has been acting like a **** towards Anakin. I can also imagine that Anakin resents the Jedi for leaving his mother to rot as a slave for ten years and not making him a master.
So Anakin has no love towards Mace and given the risk of loosing Padme, he acts. So his motivation is, not wanting to loose Padme and him not liking Mace and the other Jedi. NOT any coup.
This motivation would be the same with Mace ond co all dead when Anakin gets there.
So Palpatine gives him a simple choice, join me and Padme will live. Defy me and Padme dies.
Given how obsessed Anakin over not loosing Padme, I can totally see him agree to that.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Yes, Palpatine did some things for taking Anakin as his apprentice, but the choice is still Anakin's, Dooku could beat Anakin in the invisible hand, and then what ? Or Anakin could die in some accident, or he was actually dying in the Mustafar system if not for Palpatine, Palpatine couldn't rely on Anakin too much, he is the Sith Master, taking an apprentice is important, but not more than risking his life, if he risks his life then everything he did so far, for all his grand plan would be lost. Taking Mace's saber on his throat doesn't seem as a good plan to me. If it is, then it's a stupid one. Anakin couldn't cut or stop Mace's blade in time just as easy.

 

As far as if Dooku had beaten Anakin, difficult to say. Dooku had already beaten Anakin several times over the course of the war, but Anakin grew stronger over time. Dooku trying to urge Anakin to use his anger implies he was in on an effort to turn him. But had Anakin been killed, I don't think Palpatine would really care beyond being disappointed. I mean, he wanted Luke as an apprentice, but he's settle for Vader, if Luke refused.

I refuse to believe that Palpatine didn't have contingencies in place. If he just wanted to kill the Jedi, he could have ordered Order 66 immediately after Anakin left to report him. If he wanted footage or to make a scene, he could have summoned troops to bar the way and issue Order 66 when the Jedi show up and take up arms.

Mace was going to arrest Palpatine. If the fight didn't go his way, what was to stop him from surrendering? What evidence did they have he was a Sith? He had Order 66 still in his pocket to play at a later time. He had Mas Amedda who could have issued it and who could probably relay messages to the Separatist leaders in Palpatine's absence. I think the only way the Jedi could have truly ousted Sith control of the government would be to set themselves up as temporary dictators and take control of the Senate, as they had discussed (though they didn't use the word dictator, it's implied IMO).

Had they made a move on the Senate, all that would have to happen is Mas Amedda issues Order 66 and Palpatine gets let go.

So when it comes to Palpatine being in danger, Mace tried to arrest him twice. Once before the fight began, then again when he was cornered. Had things gone horribly and Anakin didn't show up, then he could have allowed himself to be arrested. Anakin obviously needed to interrogate him to learn how to save Padme, which would have given Palpatine further opportunity to play on his insecurity. Or what happens if Yoda and Mace refuse to let Anakin see Palpatine? I'm guessing he'd sneak, if he had to. As far as he was concerned, Padme was going to die and the clock was ticking.

If all he wanted was to tempt Anakin with promises of saving Padme, then he could have just told Anakin that if he walks out of the office that the offer is off the table. Or he could have threatened to kill Padme, if Anakin doesn't agree to serve him. Once Palpatine knew Anakin was married, then he knew who to target to control Anakin. Kind of like how Green Goblin goes after Peter Parker's love interest.

But he didn't do that. He creates a situation in which Anakin is forced to make a decision and betray Mace. He got blood on his hands. And THEN there was no going back. It was no longer just about Padme at that point. He had betrayed the Jedi and as far as he knew, the Jedi would kill him too. That was the action that sealed his loyalty to Palpatine. Padme was the catalyst for betraying the Jedi, but turning on Mace was the point of no return, at least until Luke shows him compassion.

We know that Dooku had Sifo-Dyas killed, so I can only speculate that a similar betrayal served to seal Dooku's destiny as a Sith.

The Sith are afraid of losing their power. Death is the ultimate failure. Yoda was out to kill Palpatine and Palpatine tried to run.

Mace was out to arrest Palpatine and Palpatine made no attempt to flee. Yet it is uncharacteristic to risk his life in a fight with someone like Mace. Which makes me think that he must have had his bases covered and contingencies in place, if things didn't go his way.

As far as convincing Anakin of Jedi coup, the Jedi WERE plotting a coup to remove Palpatine and take control of the Senate. Palpatine never once refers to justify the Sith as being good. He says that the Sith fear losing their power and tells a legend of betrayal and murder. He makes no attempt to paint the Sith in a good light, what he does do though is say the Jedi and the Sith are similar in almost every way in an attempt to make Anakin jaded about the Jedi. The Sith will give Anakin the power he wants, but the Jedi seek to control him by denying him secrets of the Force to protect their own power. That's the doubt that Palpatine creates anyway, that the Jedi and Sith are driven by the same motivations, but that the Jedi feel threatened by Anakin and subdue him, while Palpatine will strengthen him.

 

How do you know that Anakin is being stupid? What if he is using the Jedi as a scapegoat or a camouflage for his own action against Mace?


I suspect that Palpatine may have faked his defeat at the hands of Mace. But I still believe that both Mace and Palpatine were capable of defeating each other. As I have pointed out before, I have read a book about the movie's behind-the-scenes in which it verified that Anakin, Yoda and Mace were the only three capable of taking on Palpatine.

 

Whether it was planned for or not. Mace had Palpatine on the ground with a saber at his head. Palpatine was at his mercy, no two ways about it. This may of been orchestrated...but Mace still won...regardless the intent...Mace was accomplishing his goals...winning. He shoulda stopped talkin and whacked him while he had a chance.

 

The Disney site also confirms Windu won which is obvious. Conjecture isn't proof and Lucas already said Windu overpowered him.

 

No, it doesn't. The official Star Wars site says:

"Mace seemed to defeat Sidious and raised his lightsaber to strike down the Sith Lord, but a desperate Anakin ignited his own weapon and severed Mace's forearm. Sidious then blasted Mace with Force lightning, sending the great Jedi champion plummeting to his death."

If it was established canon that Mace won, then the Star Wars site wouldn't have included the word: "seemed."

 

And that works both ways. Mace was right where he wanted to be, but Palpatine was also creating a position required to force Anakin to make a choice. Hence he fakes being weak when he is not. He could have kept up the assault on Mace but didn't, because he wanted Anakin to make a voice ("you must choose!")

Nobody disputes that his comments of being weak are lies he uses to Force Anakin to make a choice, so why is it so hard to believe he consciously put himself in that position? He needed Anakin to make a choice, which wasn't going to happen if Mace was dead.

And if there is agreement that Palpatine was not weak and could have kept the fight up, then he was only at Mace's mercy because he chose to be by faking weakness.