PT Did Mace Windu really defeat Palpatine?

At no stage in the entire battle, was windu in any position to kill Palps. Even when Palps throws his sabre out the window as Anakin is conveniently entering, Palps would have blocked with lightning any attempts of windu trying to kill him. Not for one second in the entire fight, could windu kill Palps. If anyone can think of one, please let me know.

 

Looking at the scene objectively I would say Palps won the fight. 1) Mace went there with the intention of arresting/killing Palpatine, 2) Palpatine set up the fight to get Anakin to become his new apprentice, and Justify to the senate that the Jedi where traitors, so he could execute order66. Clearly Mace failed and Palpatine won.

Arguing about the fight is pointless, It's like Team A beating Team B 1-0 in a football match, and then the manager of Team B saying afterwards "We where in control for 89 minutes and should have won the game easily". It doesn't matter, all that happens during the match is irrelevant, all that matters is the result.

 

Yep, and remember, Palps didn't have any to pass the ball to. Mace had 4 people on his team and still got beat

 

Even if Palpatine was faking his defeat, it doesn't mean that Mace was incapable of defeating him. It has been confirmed by Lucasfilm (unless Disney has decided to change canon) that he, along with Anakin and Mace, were capable of defeating him. Just as Palpatine was capable of doing the same.

 

I hear what you're saying. However, Sidious kills mace and 3 other Jedi Masters in the same battle. He defeated Yoda and made him run away before he was killed. Then he turned the chosen one (Anakin, the only one destined to destroy the Sith) into his new apprentice.
Look at everything Palps has done, how can anyone say he wasn't that powerful and say he just got lucky. Mace was already beaten long before the fight began. The films show us that no Jedi 1vs1 or 4vs1 stood a chance against Palpatine. He fought the very best the Jedi could throw at him and won.

 

Well I do feel like Mace could have killed Palpatine. I think that's the whole point of that scene. If Anakin does nothing and sides with Mace, then Palpatine dies and the Sith are destroyed. If he sides with Palpatine, then Palpatine lives and Anakin betrays the Jedi.

I definitely think that Palpatine was in a position where he was at the mercy of Anakin and Mace, otherwise I don't think that scene has any real tension to it. If Anakin sided with Mace and Palpatine could just overcome them both and kill them and win anyway, then it robs the scene of its importance in that the future of the Republic lay with Anakin's decision.

But Anakin wanted to arrest Palpatine and take him alive so that he could do the right thing in arresting the Sith Lord, but also keep him alive so that he can interrogate Palpatine as to how to save Padme. This was unacceptable to Palpatine who had been putting doubt in Anakin's mind that the Jedi were plotting to overthrow him. That's why Anakin waits around in the Temple for a bit, but then rushes off to Palpatine's office. I don't think he trusts Mace to take Palpatine in alive. He needs Palpatine alive (Anakin: "I need him!")

Mace did go in with the intention to arrest Palpatine and tried to do so twice

1." In the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, you are under arrest, Chancellor."
2. "You are under arrest, my Lord."

But both these attempts are before Anakin shows up. Anakin shows up moments after the second attempt, sees Palpatine cornered with a lightsaber at his throat, Palpatine claims that the Jedi were taking over.

Palpatine: "Anakin, see? I was right. The Jedi are taking over!"

Palpatine then unleashes a barrage of Force lightning at Mace, nearly knocks Mace off balance, but Mace regains his footing and manages to deflect the lightning back at Palpatine. Palpatine then begins to say:

"I have the power to save the ones you love. You must choose!."
"Don't let him kill me!"
"I'm weak. I'm too weak [...] Help me! Help me! I can't hold on any longer..."

[...]

"UNLIMITED POWER!"

Recall that Anakin didn't see the first two attempts to arrest Palpatine. All he sees is Palpatine accuse Mace of taking over, Mace over powering a seemingly weaker opponent, Palpatine begging Anakin not to let Mace kill him, and then sees Mace moving in to kill Palpatine.

Palpatine was not going to be taken alive. He was not going to allow Anakin to remain a Jedi and still learn his secrets. He needed Anakin to make a choice ("You must choose!"). So despite Mace's first two attempts to arrest him (which Anakin didn't see), Palpatine kept provoking Mace until Mace went in for the kill. This is what Palpatine wanted. Because it forced Anakin to make a decision. Anakin saves Palpatine here much the same way as Vader saves Palpatine years later when Palpatine provokes Luke into striking him down and Vader protects him. He is extremely arrogant and has full confidence that he has control of Anakin.

The juxtaposition of "I'm weak" with "UNLIMITED POWER!" kind of gives away that he was faking losing his power. He was putting himself into a pathetic, "defenseless" position that forced Anakin to protect him.

So if he's faking losing his power, then why is it hard to believe that he threw the fight to begin with? He couldn't force Anakin to make a decision, unless he let his guard down. If he had killed Mace before Anakin arrived, then it doesn't force Anakin to make a decision or get involved. Anakin could then just run off and get more Jedi and try again. Or Anakin might attack Palpatine and try to take him in himself. But by goading Mace to kill him, it forced Anakin to make a decision. Arrest was no longer an option. Either Anakin lets Palpatine die and loses the power to save Padme, or he saves Palpatine and betrays the Jedi.

As to whether Palpatine could or could not beat Palpatine in a straight fight. Maybe he could, maybe he couldn't. As has been said, there are sources that put Mace, Palpatine and Yoda all in the same tier, so it's likely that Mace probably could have. But Palpatine needed to be put in a position where he was defeated. Thus Mace defeating Palpatine and caving into the desire to kill Palpatine only served to help Palpatine.

I can't speak to how the characters compare in raw power. But I feel like I can speak to their wisdom, with Mace being not as wise as Yoda or Palpatine. Palpatine may or may not have been as strong as Mace, but he didn't rely on his raw power. Instead he had a strategy and Mace was outplayed. I feel like Palpatine was right where he wanted to be, and he was brilliant enough to turn Mace's success against him. Hence Palpatine won.

 

If Anakin hadn't interfered. Palps was in position to zap Mace with lightning anyway. Palps had his hands in position to use his lightning if Anakin didn't block.
In saying that, Palps knew for certain the decision Anakin had made. When Mace holds his lightsabre above his own head, this gave Palps an open target to kill him with lightning right there. He didn't kill him because he knew which side Anakin had chosen.

 

Of course the fact it was a poorly executed scene, rushed, re-edited and changed 3 times doesn't exactly help the matter.

 

Wrong, Anakin WAS present when Mace says "You are under arrest My Lord." Right after he has Palpatine down.
So Anakin most certainly heard Mace trying to arrest Palpatine.
Plus when Anakin enters, Mace has his lightsabre pointed towards Palpatine but isn't making any motion to try and stab him. Then they talk a bit and then Mace says "You have lost." Not "I will kill you." To which Palpatine responds with "NO, you will die." and he launches force lightning.

So Anakin KNOWS that Mace and three other Jedi went to arrest Palpatine. He can easily figure out that Palpatine killed the other three and tries to kill Mace AFTER Mace has tried to arrest him.
Palpatine is VERY clearly resisting arrest.

But he did, look at the film, Anakin enters the room and THEN Mace says, "You are under arrest.."
So he sees Mace trying to arrest Palpatine and Mace not making any attempt to kill said Palpatine until AFTER Palpatine has unleashed yet another attack and tried to kill Mace.

The choice can be made even with Mace and co dead. Ex Anakin enters the room and finds a bleeding Palpatine who tells him that the Jedi came in and tried to kill him and that the jedi are staging a coup and what not. Then he puts a choice before Anakin, the Jedi are traitors and are to be arrested, they have lost. So either he clings to a lost cause or he sides with Palpatine and he gets to keep Padme alive. Given how much Anakin cares about Padme, I have no doubt he would side with Palpatine.

One thing that I think is overlooked here is that nothing in Palpatine's overall plan to take over the republic and kill the Jedi relied on Anakin. He could do that with or without Anakin.
And I think that while Palpatine was interested in Anakin, I think he most certainly valued his own life and overall plan more than turning Anakin.
That was just icing on the cake. If Anakin doesn't play ball, he can kill him, do order 66 anyway and look for another apprentice.

Because to me the idea of Palaptine going like this "I will tell Anakin who I am but I know he will not join me and will run and tell the other Jedi. I know that Mace and three other Jedi will come to arrest me. I will kill three of them but keep Mace alive long enough for Anakin to arrive and then I'll loose the fight and try to kill Mace with force lighting but he will deflect it and then I'll try to pretend that I am weak when Mace tries to kill me as then Anakin will save me and thus he will turn."

To me this is an absurd level of planning ahead and foreknowledge that only makes sense if you assume that he has read the script.

I do not doubt that he was faking weakness when Anakin was there and he had lost the fight.
But the question is if during the entire fight with Mace that he NEVER tried to kill Mace. That the plan for the get go was to fake loosing.

[/QUOTE]

Well I just took a look at the fight and it is not very impressive in terms of swordplay.

And right before he gets a boot to the face, Palpatien makes a lunge towards Mace, who sidesteps him quite slowly. Then Palpatine's back is totally exposed to Mace and had Mace spun around quickly and stabbed downwards and to the right, he would have impaled Palpatine.
Any halfway competent sword fighter could have killed Palpatine.

Do we? In what film was that established?
If you are referring to EU then that highlights a weakness of the films, that they don't stand on their own two feet.

Or he was overconfident and thought that he could take Mace with ease and then found out the hard way that Mace wasn't a pushover. Remember, "Your overconfidence is your weakness."

Also Palpatine risked his life at the start of the film just to pit Dooku and Anakin against each other.
Something he could have done with far less risk in a number of other ways.

No they weren't. They were just discussing options what they should do IF Palpatine doesn't give back his extra powers when Griev was dead and the war over.
Ki-Adi suggest to remove Palpatine from office if that happens. Mace thinks it is dangerous and they would have to do more than that and Yoda issues a caution towards that kind of thinking.

That concern is not unwarranted. If Palpatine does not step down as he promised, then he is a dictator trying to seize power. Is it not in the Jedi's mandate to act against that?
Should they just stand by and watch a dictator taking over the republic? So discussing options is sensible.
Anyway, Anakin wasn't present here so it is not relevant.

I think he does, with Plaug. he talks about how he was able to keep death from those he loved and cared for. Not from himself mind you. So this Sith is described in a nice way. He prolongs the life of his friends and loved ones. Also he describes Plaug as "The wise". That is quite a positive title.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I knew poor choreography was going to called
It's still how George Lucas created it.

 

He already tried that. He had been accusing the Jedi of a plot against him, when Anakin said he was going to turn him over to the Jedi and get to the bottom of everything, Palpatine told him that that is what he should do, but that he knows Anakin isn't sure of their intentions. He had said that Anakin would never learn the ability from the Jedi, and had tried to already tempt Anakin with the power to save Padme. It didn't work. Anakin wanted Palpatine arrested. He had no intention to betray the Jedi. It was only after he made a snap decision to protect Palpatine that resulted in Mace's death that he abandons the attempt to arrest Palpatine and pledges himself to the Sith.

Yeah, Palpatine could have gone through with forming his Empire without Anakin, he could have killed Anakin along with the rest and found a new apprentice elsewhere. Hell, as I said earlier, he could of simply had Padme abducted and threatened to kill her if Anakin didn't join him. Or he could have issued Order 66 and given Anakin the ultimatum to join him or die. There were several other routes he could have taken, but for whatever reason he wanted to take the route of treating Anakin like a friend.

You assume that he knew Anakin would reject him. What if Anakin joined him the moment he mentioned that he could teach Anakin how to save Padme?

Plus, is it better in your mind that instead he lets Anakin run off and report Palpatine being a Sith to who knows how many Jedi and Palpatine does nothing but sit in his office? What if 20 Jedi had showed up? Why didn't he just execute Order 66 right then? He just sits there and does nothing. You said you like the idea that he's filming events, but what if 20 Jedi show up and the odds are impossibly stacked against him? I think a little suspension of disbelief is required, because I'm not sure him just sitting there was the best move on his part. Everything worked out because four Jedi showed up, three of which he could kill with ease. But again, what if they had waited for Yoda to come back? What if Mace simultaneously had another Jedi go report what they were going to do to the Senate? Then any tapes Palpatine has wouldn't be worth jack.

And there were at least two moments that Mace was wide open for attack. At one point Palpatine has a clear shot at Mace's chest and could have stabbed him. Then when he is in his back swing to deliver the killing blow to Palpatine, he is wide open for force lightning.

But that whole fight was poorly choreographed. There are moments where Ian McDiarmid looks like he's tripping over his own feet. The fight with Yoda is much better and he shows way more competence. But I'm sure a lot of the ridiculousness of the fight with Mace has to do with the scene being rushed, not because Lucas was trying to make any kind of commentary about Palpatine being a poor fighter.

It's established in a Season 6 episode of TCW. But I am in agreement that the Sifo-Dyas/clone army point was a weakness of the films, given the route Lucas decided to go in TCW.

You say that he values his own life more than turning Anakin, but then say that he risked his life just to pit Anakin and Dooku against each other. Which can be explained with the quote you cite here, "your overconfidence is your weakness." Palpaitne did the EXACT same thing in the OT. He taunts Luke to the point that Luke tries to strike him down, and Vader steps in to protect him. Palpatine doesn't lift a finger or flinch. In ROTS, Palpatine is provoking Mace to the point that Mace abandons the arrest attempt and decides to kill Palpatine. We've already established that Palpatine was faking losing his power, and once again he doesn't lift a finger to defend himself when he obviously could since he isn't really weak and it's all an act. He is risking his life to turn Anakin, but he knows Anakin is going to defend him, just as he knew Vader was going to defend him from Luke. He is phenomenally arrogant.

But this tale is told in the context that Sith are all about the pursuit of power and the only thing they fear is losing their power. And if you are trying to convince Anakin the goodness of the Sith, why even bring up the whole him getting murdered in his sleep by his apprentice? That depicts them in a pretty bad light.

 

Im my opinion Mace did defeat Palpatine, but Anakin kept him from finishing the job.

 

the deus et maxina palpatine argument its kind of funny...

Specially, when he cannot predict his first ds being blown, and that anakin is finally going to betray him.

But suddenly, getting mace blade up his throat was all part of a master plan, after forseeing the whole scene.

And lets give a crap about what Lucas said right?

 

You looked right in 2013
Lol, but now mace was finally right about giving a crap about the prophecy... you cant discuss with lucas greed!

Now Anakin did not end the dark side, nor did bring balance to the force, and probably didnt even defeated the sith, since now there are clearly two sith looking guys, one of them who seams really old -

 

Darth Sidious>>>Yoda>Darth Sidious post windu fight damaging him (And that was a close fight still)

Sidious own but it was clear Yoda was stronger then weakened Sidious.

Windu vs Yoda is unclear but Yoda IMO beats windu. IDK if Windu could beat Siidous when crippled, but Siidious definitely threw the fight to turn Anakin.

He didn't even use the force at all, Mace had to use it the entire time (shatterpoint.) Which btw is in the novel (correct me if I'm wrong) and thus canon.

 

I've always thought that Windu beat fair and square and Palpatine got bailed out by Anakin coming at the right time. He then used that to his advantage to try and get Anakin to save his life. But before that, he was beat. It's too bad Yoda was in Kashyyk. If he was still in Coruscant, I think him and Windu could have handled Sidious with ease

 

Pretty far-fetched to suggest Palpatine didn't expect Anakin's arrival. His whole plan to turn Anakin hinged on everyone doing roughly as he predicted. He wouldn't have risked letting Mace go for the death blow if he didn't think Anakin would intervene - he wasn't really out of power, and if he didn't expect Anakin to interfere it would be continued lightning and a stalemate at best.


Mace and co arriving was planned by Palpatine long in advance of it actually happening.
Look at these scenes...

MACE: General Grievous will run and hide as he always does. He is a coward.
PALPATINE: But with Count Dooku dead he is the leader of the droid army. And I can assure you the Senate will vote to continue the war as long as Grievous is alive.
MACE: Then the Council will make finding Grievous our highest priority.


PALPATINE: Anakin, come closer, I have good news. Our clone intelligence have discovered the location of General Grievous. He's hiding. In the Utapau system.
ANAKIN: At last! We will be able to capture that monster and end this war.


MACE: Anakin, deliver this report to the Chancellor. His reaction will give us a clue to his intentions.
...
ANAKIN: Chancellor. We have just received word from Obi-Wan Kenobi. He has engaged General Grievous.
PALPATINE: Then we can only hope Master Kenobi is up to the challenge!


MACE: Skywalker. We have just received word that Obi-Wan has destroyed General Grievous. We are on our way to make sure the Chancellor returns emergency power to the Senate.


PALPATINE: Master Windu. I take it General Grievous has been destroyed then. I must say you are here sooner than expected.
MACE: In the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, you are under arrest Chancellor.



Palpatine plays them all like puppets. Notice when he reveals his Sith identity to Anakin he makes no move to stop Anakin from going and informing Mace. He just says what he needs to, to sew doubt in Anakin, then passively waits in his office for Mace and his posse to arrive. He knows that the Jedi will be on their way shortly, it's his preference. Arguably he predicted Anakin wouldn't be with them, and he knows Anakin well enough to have little doubt he won't stay at the Temple. He can sense when Anakin arrives at the office building Imo. It makes no sense that he would risk being decapitated if he didn't know Anakin would block it, just as he knows Vader will block Luke's strike in ROTJ.

 

He wasn't supposed to.

He did bring balance to the Force, but that doesn't necessarily mean it would never become unbalanced again.

 

That seems like speculation to me. It makes more sense for him to have tried to turn Anakin the moment he revealed he was a Sith and hoped for the best. I agree that he knew Anakin would save him one he was there but not before that. Otherwise it's really horrible timing. Sure he sensed Anakin's presence, but what's stopping Windu from killing him before Anakin manages to reach him. Makes more sense that he was actually disarmed and then used Anakin's presence to his advantage

 

snoke is old enough (or seams so) to be a dark force user before the events of the second dstar

so, nope.

mace was right to give a damn about the prhofecy and try to end the sith himself.

if he could only could had been a little more sammuel l...

"Im going to stop this mother****ing sith, in this mother****ing galaxy, so get your mother****er skywalker ass, out of here"

 

Its kind of strange that a plan with so many points that could had gone wrong, and need perfect timing, was done by a guy who actually fails 90% of the times in more easyer plots or schemes. There was to much in stake, to end up with mace windus saber up to his throat.

Yes, he did whipe out the jedi. Thats his credit. Thats order 66.

But carefully planed things failed so miserably, that Im not giving sidious that all mighty planning.

Just look in episode III, which is of course, his main win.
- He wants to leave Obi Wan in taanatus, but Anakin says no.
- He wants yoda dead by order 66 but fails. The same with Obi wan. 2/4 of the most important jedi survive order 66. And carried the seed to sidious doom.
- He isnt able to learn that padme had two kids, that are kept by a powerful jedi, and a political enemy (organa) that also scapes to start a rebelion. Both things will doom him
- And his super apprendice is dismembered by obi wan. Cripped in power for ever.

Add this to two death stars being blown, luke not turning, anakin coming back, genosis as plan to whipe jedi failing, yoda and obi wan never being cought, and a big etc.

Palpatine is great at the overall plan, but most of the times he gets advantage of oportunities, and is a big gambler. Mace kicked his ass, but he was lucky, he had a wild card while he plays many hands at the same time, and he used it.

Not being able to kick windus ass, he used plan b.

After all, if he could whipe out all the jedi by himself, inclouding mace. Why does he needs anakin to turn? is not easier to execute order 66, kill them all, and just rule the galaxy as he wants?

 

taanatus? I should had said invisible hand... kind of drunk I guess

 

great post, and I agree 99%

however, anakin did see maces second attempt to arrest palpatine.

 

I read lots of post quoting the moment of the duel when palaptines saber was pretty close to maces chest (still armed) but not about this...

watch this part alone, and any doubts will go away.... those 4, 5 secs, with palpatne crawling in the floor