PT Did Mace Windu really defeat Palpatine?

I think that Palps knew that Mace could deflect his bolts, and so when he did it it left him all deformed facially. That could have just added to the effect of being "helpless".

 

The fight was over when Anakin came in. The lightsaber duel was finished when Mace disarmed Palpatine.

 

So we have two people so far that believe the fight was over when Palpatine was disarmed. If that's the case, then Mace won.

 

True, but lightning is a powerful power to learn and use. If he wanted to appear weak in front of Anakin then why would he lose a lightsaber fight then use lightning a few moments afterwards? Surely it would have made more sense to tough the lightsaber fight out until Anakin got there (As if he was just defending himself against Mace).

 

I could list all the ways he successfully predicts the future, but here are some: using the Naboo crisis and the Clone War to gain power; knowing that Anakin is being asked to spy on him even though this request is made off the record; knowing about Anakin's nightmares and his secret marriage even though virtually everyone on the Council is ignorant of this; knowing tons of stuff that Vader can't sense, even stuff about his own kid like the fact that Luke will turn himself over to him; and here's really the best of all: Palpatine knowing that Vader will respond to Luke's attempt to strike him down and even knowing that Vader will be fast enough to block Luke's saber (that's why Palpatine does nothing to defend himself). Of course, in the very end, Palpatine ends up being wrong about a few things, but he's got to be wrong some time, or he'll never lose. (Plus, it was pretty much accepted wisdom that once you go to the dark side you're not coming back, so he had a pretty good reason to trust that Vader wouldn't turn on him. Yoda and Obi sure didn't think he would.)

He can predict the future so well that he knows that Luke will try to strike him down but that Vader will intervene and be fast enough to block Luke's blow. That's pretty darn good. It's certainly good enough to know that Mace will disarm him if he hesitates, and the novel specifically says that he does hesitate.

Prophecies have been a part of literature is since the very beginning. Prophecies are play a central role in Oedipus, MacBeth, Lord of the Rings, The Matrix, and um... the Bible. In every case a specific prophecy is stated, and in every case the prophecy proves to be 100% true. GL is a great student of the Classics. He knows what function a prophecy serves in a storyline.

Furthermore, there's a really good reason Palpatine would never put his feet up and drink tea when being attacked. He doesn't know if the prophecy is real or not. That's the thing about prophecies. You never know they're true until they are fulfilled, and since fulfilling the Chosen One prophecy involves Palpatine's death, he can't know until he's falling down that shaft in ROTJ that the prophecy is real. So, only then does he think: "Oh cr-a-a-a-p!!! The prophecy was real!!!" Splat!

 

Think of what was seen from Anakin's point of view when he came in. All he saw was a Jedi master with his lightsaber to the Chancellor's neck. He had no clue of the other three Jedi that were brought along and killed, let alone did he even know if an entire duel went down with Mace and Palps. Palpatine was attacked and cornered by Mace from Anakin's point of view,
"Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!
From my point of view the Jedi are evil!"
Lightning was just something Palpatine had up his sleeve to defend himself in Anakin's eyes.

 

He uses lightning because he can't fake weakness in lightsaber duel. You're either alive or you're chopped up. With the Force lightning, he can pretend that he's getting more and more tired until he's helpless. At that point, Anakin has to decide: block Mace's killing strike or let Mace kill Palpatine. Since he thinks Palpatine can save Padme (and b/c Mace is breaking the Jedi code), Anakin blocks the strike. At that point, Anakin's fate is sealed. He can't turn back. So, Palpatine is free to fry Mace until he's toasted.

 

Sealed, until ROTJ

 

I'm agreeing with you on most of your points, so I'm not sure why you're taking exception to things I've agreed with you on.

You read all the things he was correct about in his predictions, so I won't list them again. And of course, he's got to be wrong at some point or he'd never lose.

I'm not saying you are trying to refute those points -- that Palp is faking weakness and that GL says he is. I'm merely saying that some people might try to refute them.

Like you, I distinguish between the lightsaber battle and the Force lightning. I agree that Palpatine may have lost the duel. I just think if he did, it's highly coincidental that he lost it when he lost it in the way he lost it since losing it then and in that way serves his purposes very well, but I concede that this is possible.

From the very beginning of literature prophecies are depicted as infallible. Oedipus is prophesized to kill his father & marry his mother. It is prophesized that Macbeth can't be killed by anyone born of a woman, and he is killed by a MacDuff who born via Caesarian section (which was not considered natural child birth back then). In the LOTR, it is prophesized that the Witch King cannot be killed by any man, and all men fail. He is killed by woman helped by a Hobbit. In the Matrix, Neo is the Chosen One, and he fulfills the prophecy, though in an unexpected way. In fact, I can't think of a single instance from literature in which a prophecy is made and then it is not fulfilled. GL is a huge student of the classics. He knows how prophecies are dealt with in literature, and in the end, just like all these other works, Anakin fulfills the prophecy as he was predicted to.

It is expected that Mace wouldn't know that the prophecy is correct. You can only know it is correct when it is fulfilled, but it is fulfilled in the end. The fulfillment of a prophecy is its proof. This may seem like circular logic, but that's exactly how they are confirmed in all the cases I mentioned before. So, Mace's actions make perfect sense. He should try to kill Palp since he doesn't know if the prophecy is true or not. I'm agreeing with you.

I respectfully disagree with you on this point. GL says that Anakin is the Chosen One, he says that only the Chosen can destroy the Sith, Palpatine is the last remaining Sith, so Mace can't kill Palpatine because he'd be the one destroying the Sith, and only Anakin can do that. This is the logic consequence of the GL's statements about the Chosen One. If you reject these conclusions and believe that Mace can kill Palpatine, then you are rejecting GL's statements about the Chosen One. According to GL only Anakin, the Chosen One, can destroy the Sith. That means Mace can't do it b/c killing Palpatine would equal destroying the Sith.

Again, I don't see where we are disagreeing here. My point was that some people use the argument that "Mace overpowers Palpatine" to argue that Mace is capable of killing Palpatine. You're not making that argument. You're arguing that Mace won the duel, which I accept as a possibility.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Not trying to be rude, but from my perspective, I think you're the one who's making an excuse if making an excuse means use a false rationale. I think it's a false rationale to use a phrase like "Mace overpowers Palpatine" as proof of GL's opinion when the context in which he says it indicates, in my opinion, that he is comparing the events you see in this scene to another version of that scene. I also point out how GL doesn't clarify the context of the kidnapping of Palpatine, so whoever listens to the commentary would assume that Grievous really did kidnap Palpatine. (Most people never saw that 2003 CW cartoon.) I also point out that when GL wants to address something that is up for interpretation and give his own opinion, then he does so in great detail, and this occurs in his ROTS commentary, so we're giong to have to agree to disagree about the meaning of his commentary at that point. But again, I agree that Palpatine may have lost the duel.

 

I don't see why Lucas' description of what's happening in the scene should change either way. To make a comparison between two versions, no such change would be necessary. Lucas could easily have said "Palpatine pretends to lose" if that was his belief, whether comparing the scene to an earlier version at the time or not.

I don't get this. Palpatine is kidnapped by Grievous in that cartoon.

Which people are these?

Not always. Great detail is not always necessary, as in the case of explaining Anakin's ghosting.

 

Arawn_Fenn, about the kidnapping, what I meant is that someone watching the films wouldn't know that Palpatine was totally going along with getting captured and that Grievous didn't know that he was willingly going along and that Dooku did know that he was going along with it, and that GL doesn't clarify this confusion. I thought that in 2003 CW cartoon you see Sidious telling Grievous to kidnap Palpatine, but maybe I'm remembering wrong. Maybe that was somewhere else in the EU.

The way this connects to what I was saying is that GL is A) willing to leave things ambiguous at times and let the viewer understand B) GL acknowledges that want happens in the scene with Palp vs Mace is ambiguous. I'm sure he says this, and I'm pretty he says this in the Making in the ROTS book (but I'd have to check that) C) when GL does want to clarify something that is ambiguous, he does so with a lot of detail. For instance, he does clarify one part of the kidnapping plot. He does this when he comments on what's happening behind the scenes with Dooku and Palp when Anakin defeats Dooku. Here GL says: "In this particular case, the idea is that Palpatine is testing Anakin to see if he’s strong enough to become his apprentice, and he doesn’t tell Dooku what he’s actually up to. Dooku thinks he’s just going to fight him, but the whole thing is a setup by the Emperor to test Anakin’s strength, and when Anakin is strong enough, which he proves to be by killing Dooku, then the Emperor is ready to convert him over to the dark side to become his new apprentice.” So, I would have expected him to go into the same level of detail in the commentary of Mace vs. Palp. But I can tell we're not going to agree on this point.

BTW nice discussion. It's always fun to discuss a topic with someone who really knows the Saga.

Oh, and one more thing: May the Fourth be with You! & also Dredalus, May it also be with you!

It's an appropriate day to be on the forums!

 

Somebody listening to a ROTS commentary who doesn't get that Palpatine let himself get kidnapped basically doesn't get the whole "Palpatine is a Sith" thing and its ramifications. If it's someone's first time seeing the film and they really don't yet know that Palpatine is Sidious, it's not revealed for them at that point anyway, but then you wouldn't think they'd be listening to the commentary if they hadn't seen the film before. GL doesn't clarify the confusion because there should really be no confusion on this particular point in the first place. I would say it's essentially the same with regard to the question of Dooku, since it's reasonably clear Dooku knows Palpatine and Sidious are one and the same. ( On the specific point of Grievous' knowledge I guess it could be said that the film is a little ambiguous. )

Why would he need to? It takes less to explain that situation IMO even in the alternative interpretation: "Palpatine pretends to lose the duel here".

 

quote="darth ladnar, post: 50695561, member: 1377994"]

Hey, the 5 points I make aren't that lengthy. (I admit that my interpretation of GL's ROTS commentary is a little excessive ) Also, sometimes it takes some time to make an argument. Now, I can understand it if you don't want to take the time, but really the reason I responded is that I feel that you're not showing people who have an opposing viewpoint much respect. It doesn't take that long to read over those 5 points I stated, and I think once you're finished, you'd admit I've made valid well-reasoned points. So, people with my POV aren't unable to get the other side of the argument. We simply are presenting a valid way of interpreting the scene, and if you read my response Arawn Fenn, I think I present valid ways of interpreting the scene that accept many of the positions held by your side of the argument.[/quote] Your argument consists of going against what the creator of the story says happened. I don't need to argue against that..The author is on my side.

 

Your argument consists of going against what the creator of the story says happened. I don't need to argue against that..The author is on my side.[/quote]

Arawn Fenn who takes the ROTS commentary on its face value (and I don't) admits that GL is talking about the duel not their confrontation when Palpatine is blasting the Mace with Force lightning. In fact, GL says in the exact same commentary that Palpatine is faking weakness when he is blasting Mace with lightning. So, if Palpatine is merely faking weakness, then he would have been able to hold off Palpatine with his Force lightning or presumably disarm Mace. He disarmed Yoda with Force lightning, and Yoda is more powerful than Mace in the Force, and his size has nothing to do with it since that would be judging him by his size. If Palpatine can disarm Yoda with his Force lightning, then he should be able to disarm Mace if he were going full out instead of faking weakness, and what I am saying is based on what George Lucas did say since Lucas says Palpatine is faking weakness when he blasts Mace with Force lightning.

George Lucas also states that only the Chosen One can bring balance to the Force, and he says that bringing balance to Force means destroying the Sith, and he says that Chosen One prophecy is valid prophecy. Since it is a valid prophecy, that means that Mace cannot kill Palpatine at this point since killing Palpatine would kill off the last of the Sith and only Anakin, the Chosen One, can destroy the Sith according to Lucas's own words. So my argument that Mace cannot overcome Palpatine's Force lightning defense and kill Palpatine is also based upon things that George Lucas actually did say. (If you'd like to check out GL's quotes, please check out post #3 in the thread titled the Chosen Post.)

So, you have 1 quote by GL that only indicates that Mace won the lightsaber duel, but that quote says nothing to indicate at all that Mace can overcome Palpatine's Force lightning defense. Plus, I have 2 lines of argument stated by Lucas himself that supports that Mace cannot overcome Palpatine's Force lightning defense and ultimately kill Palpatine. Plus, I present 5 very persuasive arguments to support my position on top of what Lucas says. I think at this point the onus is on you to rebut my points since the weight of the evidence and GL is on my side not yours.

 

Yoda clearly beats Sidious

 

Just because Mace Windu can't kill Palpatine due to the prophecy, it doesn't mean he didn't beat him. That's like saying that Darth Maul couldn't have killed anakin on TPM because he was the chosen one.
Mace overpowered Sidious. George said it. You writing Essays on what you think George MIGHT have meant doesn't change a thing. Mace beat him, that's it. Case closed.
GL>>>>>>You/Me/the entire forum/the world when it comes to SW..

 

Couldn't possibly say it better myself.

 

GL is clearly only talking about the duel in the quote you are referring to. He is clearly not talking about the confrontation afterwards with Palpatine defending himself with Force lightning. GL clearly says that Palpatine is faking weakness when defending himself with Force lightning. GL clearly says that only the Chosen One can kill Palpatine (and just because you don't like or "get" the prophecy, it's still clearly part of the story, and you can't ignore it or GL's views on it. Remember GL > you? that applies here too. Got it?)

Since you think GL's words are greater than any other interpretation, that means you are clearly wrong. No lengthy essay necessary. Palpatine > Mace. Palpatine was faking weakness. GL words. Case closed. Get it?

You came on here with the view that everyone who had opinion other than yours weren't bright enought to get it, but I think it's pretty clear you're the one who is refusing to get the obvious.

 

We're not discussing Yoda and Sidious.

 

No, he doesn't. Palpatine is faking weakness when he is saying "I'm too weak" while not shooting lightning. Shooting lightning would be a poor way to fake weakness. Referring to the part where Mace is blasted with lightning but is blocking it, Lucas says that Palpatine is trying to destroy Mace.

Not only is Mace physically stronger than Yoda, but Yoda was disarmed because he was only holding his lightsaber with one hand and was caught somewhat off-guard by being blasted right after landing from a jump.

This thread is titled "Did Mace Windu really defeat Palpatine?" Thus it must be a reference to the duel specifically, because we know that Mace did not defeat Palpatine in any other way.

 

I think is funny that the only response you seem to have is George said this, but he meant that. He clearly meant this, when in reality this is what he really meant, because in this part( Totally irrelevant to this discussion at hand), the Dialogue that said this, but I know that it's what he meant, because this other commentary was worded this way..Lol. Yah, that's top notch argument my friend.

Sure, Palpatine was faking weakness when he saw Anakin come in, and when his attack on Mace didn't work. Fact, Mace overpowered Palpatine. Fact, Mace disarmed Palpatine. Fact, had it not been for Anakin, Mace would have killed Palpatine.
Those are the facts that you can't change no matter how much you try to twist George's words to try and fit your own discombobulated Logic.
Let go of your bias, and you will see Mace overpowered Palps...

 

After all this time I still don't know exactly what to think on this subject. Sure, Lucas said Mace won the duel, but the guy changes his mind every five minutes. I'm not saying Palpatine lost on purpose, but it also seems clear he detected Anakin's presence and (possibly) knew when he revealed his identity to Anakin earlier, Anakin wouldn't just stay at the Temple. It's not in Anakin's nature. He seems to be trying to kill Mace, but having said that, I doubt Sidious would have feigned weakness if he wasn't confident Anakin would help him. I'm not sure, it is so subjective with or without Lucas' commentary.

 

I don't think Lucas can be relied on when it comes to insider story facts. He gives different answers all the time.

 

I think chess and debate have a lot in common. They are both exercises in the intellect. There's one big difference, though. In a game of chess the smarter player knows that he's beaten his opponent, and his opponent recognizes that he's lost as well. However, in a debate, the smarter debater knows that he's beaten his opponent, but at the same time, the loser in the debate isn't clever enough to know that he's lost because he can't understand the winner's argument. So, the loser just keeps making the same bad arguments again and again. I personally am not the type to continue debating with someone who has lost an argument but continues to argue as if he has won.

 

Yeah, first he said there would be 9 movies, or 12 movies, then there were only going to be 6 movies, then there was going to be a ST...

He hasn't changed his mind on this issue, though, as far as anyone knows.

Not to this question.